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Kismit

Where is Jamal Khashoggi?

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Kismit

The Saudis had a forensic expert with them when Koshoggi went missing. I doubt there will be any evidence.

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Only_
11 hours ago, toast said:

If the Saudis dump the oil price down to the value of the extraction costs of US oil, then the US is screwed because US oil exports will go downhill.

Maybe it's time to switch from gasoline to an alternative fuel? We have the technologies in place, what we lack is political will for a clear, definite transition. Then maybe we wont be so dependant on a country like Saudi Arabia.

Edited by Clockwork_Spirit
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RoofGardener

It seems that Putin has inspired OTHER countries to try the assassination route !

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Habitat

Unlike Putin's seeming escapade, this one is at the dry cleaners.

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The Caspian Hare
15 hours ago, Kismit said:

I  don't think so. I think it has been the most public. I believe it has been the most openly viewed. Under other Presidents, the diplomatic response would be to say something like. I have only just heard the news, I  am going to have to look into the matter and get all the information before I comment.

It would then be tackled with a few phonecalls and what would essentially be a slap on the wrist with a wet bus ticket. Forgotten by the public in a week.

But the fact that the man's value was publicly calculated by monetary value, citizenship and profit over life and freedom (or liberty if you prefer that term) . That an arms trade deals,  that blood money is more important to the American president than freedom of the press or freedom of speech has made it a much bigger issue.

The fact that he is willing to help the Saudis cover thier backsides (for profit)rather than speak out against the death of a journalist is appalling. And meanwhile the Saudi Government is emboldened once more. 

I just can't even put into words how upset this makes me.

None of his off-the-cuff remarks, which are most of his public statements, should be taken at face value. He just expresses a general sentiment ("jobs are good, I want what's best for america") then makes a decision later. He isn't bound by any of that. That's been his M.O. from day one. And you know that  whenever you do diplomacy with a less-than-savory regime, you are sitting down and making deals with thugs and killers, and ignoring their crimes for your own benefit . Every country does this and it should not surprise you. The only thing remarkable here is that it was an abuse of the embassy/consulate system; diplomatic missions aren't meant to be used for murder. Saudi Arabia has overplayed its hand this time and it is going to pay a price.

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toast
Quote

(The Guardian) Erdoğan: toxic materials and evidence of repainting found in Saudi consulate

Some areas have been repainted at the Saudi consulate where missing Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi was last seen alive, the Turkish president, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, has said, as investigators prepared to enter the nearby Saudi consul’s house after the diplomat left the country.

Erdoğan told reporters on Tuesday that police had found evidence of toxic materials and signs that some surfaces had been repainted at the consulate where investigators say the missing journalist was killed.

The Guardian

Quote

(CNN)The body of missing journalist Jamal Khashoggi was cut into pieces after he was killed two weeks ago at the Saudi consulate in Istanbul, a Turkish official told CNN on Tuesday

The claim, which was first made to the New York Times earlier in the investigation into Khashoggi's fate, comes after Turkish officials searched the consulate for nine hours on Monday night. The Turkish official would not comment on the disposal method for the body.

CNN

If I remember correctly, 15 Saudis arrived on Monday (?) into Turkey on 2 private jets. It would be of interest if these persons had diplomatic status. If yes, it would had been very easy for them to smuggle Khashoggi`s body remains out of the country as diplomatic bags are not allowed to get controlled by border officials and airport security staff

Q: will #45 cancel the 110B weapon deal in case the Saudis are responsible for the Khashoggi murder?

Anyway, the world is on fire and too many maniacs are in political key positions.

 

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Kittens Are Jerks

Really informative article examining how much leverage the Saudis have if they were to retaliate against any US sanctions:

Saudis Issued Dire Warnings Against U.S. Sanctions. But How Much Leverage Do They Have?
The Saudis have warned that they could push oil prices to $100 or $200 a barrel, an act that would probably plunge the American and global economies into recession. They have suggested that United States defense companies could forfeit tens of billions of dollars in deals that could instead go to Russia or China.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/16/world/middleeast/saudi-khashoggi-us.html

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Kittens Are Jerks

This just keeps getting better. No, not really.

Saudis Plan To Pin Khashoggi Slaying on ‘Rogue’ General
The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is starting to float a trial-balloon explanation for its apparent slaying of journalist Jamal Khashoggi, The Daily Beast has learned, in hopes of escaping the consequences of an episode that has shaken whatever geopolitical confidence existed in Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/saudis-plan-to-pin-khashoggi-slaying-on-rogue-general

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Habitat

Spin doctors must be working overtime on this, if someone can crack it with an "acceptable" explanation, they'll become a legend of the craft.

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RAyMO
6 minutes ago, Habitat said:

if someone can crack it with an "acceptable" explanation

It will probably not be an acceptable explanation to a neutral with an ounce of sense, but it will probably be hailed by the UK the US and others as proof that their man is as clean as the driven snow.

Edited by RAyMO
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and then
52 minutes ago, RAyMO said:

It will probably not be an acceptable explanation to a neutral with an ounce of sense, but it will probably be hailed by the UK the US and others as proof that their man is as clean as the driven snow.

It's not like any thinking person wouldn't already be aware of how evil that government is.  Should we be "shocked" that they are murderers of dissidents?  The question is how to distance oneself from their actions without looking totally hypocritical or giving the appearance of condoning it.  The elephant in the room is their near total sway, worldwide, that comes from their oil wealth.  I think they should be hammered in ways that hurt but aren't necessarily a public humiliation.  MBS needs to be shown that he definitely crossed a major line here.

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Kittens Are Jerks
2 minutes ago, and then said:

It's not like any thinking person wouldn't already be aware of how evil that government is.  Should we be "shocked" that they are murderers of dissidents?  The question is how to distance oneself from their actions without looking totally hypocritical or giving the appearance of condoning it.  The elephant in the room is their near total sway, worldwide, that comes from their oil wealth.  I think they should be hammered in ways that hurt but aren't necessarily a public humiliation.  MBS needs to be shown that he definitely crossed a major line here.

I agree with and understand your position, however, I personally think public humiliation is in order. Trump is now using the "innocent until proven guilty" position, obviously trying to give the Saudis some wiggle room, but the US should not in any way help the Saudis clean up their mess.

The position I do agree with is that of Lindsay Graham's (OMG I know, hell just froze over lol). He not only stated that the US should “sanction the hell out of Saudi Arabia” he also vowed to never work with Mohammed bin Salman as long as he remained in charge of the country, calling him “toxic” and a “wrecking ball.”

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/10/16/graham-sanction-saudi-arabia-905641

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and then
Just now, Kittens Are Jerks said:

I agree with and understand your position, however, I personally think public humiliation is in order. Trump is now using the "innocent until proven guilty" position, obviously trying to give the Saudis some wiggle room, but the US should not in any way help the Saudis clean up their mess.

The position I do agree with is that of Lindsay Graham's (OMG I know, hell just froze over lol). He not only stated that the US should “sanction the hell out of Saudi Arabia” he also vowed to never work with Mohammed bin Salman as long as he remained in charge of the country, calling him “toxic” and a “wrecking ball.”

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/10/16/graham-sanction-saudi-arabia-905641

I'm just assuming the view taken in DC - by any administration- would be one that appreciates Realpolitik.  It's an ugly fact of life but pushing them hard, publicly, could cause a train of actions that help no one and hurt a lot of innocents.  MBS can be crippled behind the scenes and accomplish more with less unintended pain, I believe.  If, as it's beginning to appear, he is really the one in control, it could turn very ugly before he manages to rein himself in...

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Kittens Are Jerks
1 hour ago, and then said:

I'm just assuming the view taken in DC - by any administration- would be one that appreciates Realpolitik.  It's an ugly fact of life but pushing them hard, publicly, could cause a train of actions that help no one and hurt a lot of innocents.  MBS can be crippled behind the scenes and accomplish more with less unintended pain, I believe.  If, as it's beginning to appear, he is really the one in control, it could turn very ugly before he manages to rein himself in...

I understand and agree, but given what happened in this instance, no one should be left with the perception that the Saudis might have got away with it.

Edited by Kittens Are Jerks
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Black Red Devil

Saudi Arabia is a country that's rotten to the core, including the new glamour boy, MBS.  But what's even more sickening is the West turning a blind eye to their terrorism financing, discrimination laws and breaches of humanitarian conduct in general.  These misfits can't do no wrong while the west lower their panties and bend over while going on tirades and sanctions against other regimes for the same or less. 

There are alternatives to their oil, time to seek and implement them.

 

Edited by Black Red Devil
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Kismit

I think another reason why I believe China is well on the way to becoming the world super power.

 

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and then
1 hour ago, Kismit said:

I think another reason why I believe China is well on the way to becoming the world super power.

 

Surely you don't mean to imply their government is in some way morally superior?

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RAyMO
1 hour ago, and then said:

Surely you don't mean to imply their government is in some way morally superior?

more like 2 sides of the same coin.

 

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Kittens Are Jerks
7 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

Saudi Arabia is a country that's rotten to the core, including the new glamour boy, MBS.  But what's even more sickening is the West turning a blind eye to their terrorism financing, discrimination laws and breaches of humanitarian conduct in general.  These misfits can't do no wrong while the west lower their panties and bend over while going on tirades and sanctions against other regimes for the same or less. 

There are alternatives to their oil, time to seek and implement them.

It's not only sickening, it's infuriating.

We (Canada) took issue with them recently over the detention of human rights activists and MBS' overreaction was telling. It's obvious his intent was to make it clear that criticism of him and his regime would not be tolerated. If MBS was annoyed over a couple of tweets, imagine how incensed he was over Jamal Khashoggi, one of his most prominent critics.

They can spin Khashoggis's death any which way they want, but at the end of the day the evidence will speak for itself.

The Jamal Khashoggi Case: Suspects Had Ties to Saudi Crown Prince
One of the suspects identified by Turkey in the disappearance of the Saudi dissident Jamal Khashoggi was a frequent companion of Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman — seen disembarking from airplanes with him in Paris and Madrid and photographed standing guard during his visits this year to Houston, Boston and the United Nations.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/16/world/middleeast/khashoggi-saudi-prince.html

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Farmer77
11 hours ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

I agree with and understand your position, however, I personally think public humiliation is in order. Trump is now using the "innocent until proven guilty" position, obviously trying to give the Saudis some wiggle room, but the US should not in any way help the Saudis clean up their mess.

If I were a US journalist who doesnt work for "Fox & Friends" this would be making me very very nervous.

 

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Black Red Devil
1 hour ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

It's not only sickening, it's infuriating.

We (Canada) took issue with them recently over the detention of human rights activists and MBS' overreaction was telling. It's obvious his intent was to make it clear that criticism of him and his regime would not be tolerated. If MBS was annoyed over a couple of tweets, imagine how incensed he was over Jamal Khashoggi, one of his most prominent critics.

They can spin Khashoggis's death any which way they want, but at the end of the day the evidence will speak for itself.

The Jamal Khashoggi Case: Suspects Had Ties to Saudi Crown Prince
One of the suspects identified by Turkey in the disappearance of the Saudi dissident Jamal Khashoggi was a frequent companion of Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman — seen disembarking from airplanes with him in Paris and Madrid and photographed standing guard during his visits this year to Houston, Boston and the United Nations.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/16/world/middleeast/khashoggi-saudi-prince.html

Yeah actually 4 out of the 7 suspects have links to MBS and Trump has the hide to suggest they're innocent until proven guilty.  The "Royals" can deny as much as they want their direct involvement, which is total BS anyway, but it happened inside their embassy and they need to accept the consequences.  The world needs to sanction these savages into misery.  Apart from their own Kingdom which is an absolute joke but their military actions in Yemen have managed to cause a human tragedy where 8.5 million people (1/3 of the country) are starving.  Yet they seem to get away with everything.

If there was the one thing I did like about Trump at the start is that he did show promise during the Presidential campaign by claiming he didn't need money from the Jews and that the Saudis blew up the Trade Center, treated women as slaves and killed gays.  After his first visit in the Middle East he made himself into a carbon copy of all previous US Presidents by sucking up to the Zionists Govt in Israel and the Islamic dictators.

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Kittens Are Jerks

According to an audio recording, Khashoggi was apparently butchered alive. His fingers hacked off one by one before he was decapitated and his body parts dissolved in acid. I don't know how legitimate the recording is, but if true... OMG.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6285357/Jamal-Khashoggi-murder-Saudi-Crown-Princes-bodyguard-murder-suspect.html

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Kismit
12 hours ago, and then said:

Surely you don't mean to imply their government is in some way morally superior?

That is interesting. 

Do you believe that the American government is acting from a position of morality? Or where you referring to the Saudis? 

What I inferred about the Chinese government was that they are making a deliberate effort to find a way to be less dependent on fossil fuels. Making them less dependent on oil. 

It has never been about morality.  That is just a Hollywood idea.

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The Caspian Hare
15 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

Saudi Arabia is a country that's rotten to the core, including the new glamour boy, MBS.  But what's even more sickening is the West turning a blind eye to their terrorism financing, discrimination laws and breaches of humanitarian conduct in general.  These misfits can't do no wrong while the west lower their panties and bend over while going on tirades and sanctions against other regimes for the same or less. 

There are alternatives to their oil, time to seek and implement them.

 

Thanks to shale oil, the US is actually energy independent now. One thing people need to understand is that it's not so much the Saudi oil itself, which can be bought from other sources, but the financial system that their oil undergirds. This is called the petrodollar system.

Basically, back in the 1970's when Richard Nixon took the US off of the gold standard, Secretary of State Henry Kissinger came up with a way to keep the dollar as the world reserve currency. He cut a deal with the King Faisal so that Saudi Arabia (and some of its OPEC oil-producing partners) would accept only dollars in exchange for oil. In return the US promised military and political assistance. Basically: the US guarantees KSA's security in exchange for their requiring dollars in oil sales. This means that there is increased demand for US dollars around the world. That has various economic benefits for us; there is a summary of them here:

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/forex/072915/how-petrodollars-affect-us-dollar.asp

One of the things Saudi Arabia has threaten to do in the current scandal is to end this arrangement and accept say, the Yuan or some other currency. This would seriously disrupt the US economy, and is one reason it is so hard for US governments to break with the Saudis.

 

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Black Red Devil
3 hours ago, The Caspian Hare said:

Thanks to shale oil, the US is actually energy independent now. One thing people need to understand is that it's not so much the Saudi oil itself, which can be bought from other sources, but the financial system that their oil undergirds. This is called the petrodollar system.

Basically, back in the 1970's when Richard Nixon took the US off of the gold standard, Secretary of State Henry Kissinger came up with a way to keep the dollar as the world reserve currency. He cut a deal with the King Faisal so that Saudi Arabia (and some of its OPEC oil-producing partners) would accept only dollars in exchange for oil. In return the US promised military and political assistance. Basically: the US guarantees KSA's security in exchange for their requiring dollars in oil sales. This means that there is increased demand for US dollars around the world. That has various economic benefits for us; there is a summary of them here:

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/forex/072915/how-petrodollars-affect-us-dollar.asp

One of the things Saudi Arabia has threaten to do in the current scandal is to end this arrangement and accept say, the Yuan or some other currency. This would seriously disrupt the US economy, and is one reason it is so hard for US governments to break with the Saudis.

 

I'm aware of the petrodollar and how it elevated the US currency to global dominance which brings a lot of wealth to you guys but also effects the rest of us when things go bad.  Hence, one of the reasons (the other is NASDAQ & NYSE) many of us stick our noses in US local affairs and...the US political section in UM. :P

My point was that there are alternative energies and a wealth behind them.  In fact, the article in your link mentions it,

the U.S. is becoming a major exporter of energy for the first time since the 1960s. This along with a strong domestic energy sector that focuses on exports is likely to cause a smooth transition away from the petrodollar as "energy exports replace the capital inflows from Saudi treasury purchases and uphold the global demand for the USD, rooted in energy needs.

Renewable energy, natural gas, nuclear electric power are the way to go.  They are cleaner and, apart from natural gas (which the US is currently a major exporter of anyway), you can build them without having to rely on natural resources belonging to others.
Edited by Black Red Devil
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