No peace in Palestine ?

[RoofGardener]

It seems that a senior PA official has made TV speeches recently in which he has painted the conflict with Israel as a religious battle between Islam and Jews. Mahmoud Al-Habbash - the senior Sharia jurist in Palestine, and the personal religious advisor to PA (and PLO) chairman Mahmoud Abbass - stated that the conflict was "..The battle of history between Islam and the enemies of Islam".  

http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=26477

Not much room for compromise and peace THERE then, is there ? 

[Imaginarynumber1]

It's almost as if there are extremists on both sides. Hmmm...

[Piney]

1 hour ago, seanjo said:

Always remember this is about Jerusalem and Moslems wanting all the Holy lands to themselves exclusively.

T.E. Lawrence had a beautiful dream of complete peace in the Middle East. But it was just a dream, and the Nazi's inciting Muslim violence against the Jews smashed any hope of it happening. 

[Sir Smoke aLot]

There are many other quotes but this is one regarding earlier time and desire for peace by Jewish leaders (Israel did not exist back then). Now, there are many more from Theodor Herzl over to Golda Meir or those from 1967. There are also crazy words said by officials of Israel today too while government refused Hamas lasting peace offers twice.

This man and whole story in topic article is religious rumbling by crazy fanatic. Wild talk which is also very spread case among groups close to Israeli government and lobbies which seek to 'hasten the coming'. Actually, Netanyahu was talking with a Rabbi about it in 1990's :

 

This is Israeli prime minister now

Should i base my opinion on that? On those who spread antisemitism because some prophecy say so? That is so wrong.

Moshe Dayan :

from Palestine Remembered website

Soon after the 1967 war, Moshe Dayan wrote in his memories regarding the ethnic cleansing and destruction of the 'Imwas, Bayt Nuba, Yalu, and big portion of the West Bank city of Qalqilya:

"[houses were destroyed] not in battle, but as punishment . . . and in order to CHASE AWAY the inhabitants . . . contrary to government policy." (Righteous Victims, p. 328)

In September 1967 Moshe Dayan told senior staff in the Israeli Occupation Army in the West Bank that some 200,000 Palestinian Arabs had left the West Bank and Gaza Strip:

"we must understand the motives and causes of the continued emigration of the [Palestinian] Arabs, from both the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, and not to undermine these cause after all, we want to create a new map." (Righteous Victims, p. 338)

On 30 July 1973 Moshe Dayan said to Time Magazine:

"There is no more Palestine. Finished . . ." (Iron Wall, p. 316)

and in April 1973 from the peaks of Massada he proclaimed a vision:

"a new State of Israel with broad frontiers, strong and solid, with the authority of the Israel Government extending from the Jordan [river] to the Suez Canal." (Iron Wall, p. 316)

David Ben Gurion in early days of colonization of Palestine :

''A few months before the peace conference convened at Versailles in 1919 and after WWI ended, Ben-Gurion envisioned future Jewish and Palestinian Arab relations as follows:

"Everybody sees the problem in the relations between the Jews and the [Palestinian] Arabs. But not everybody sees that there's no solution to it. There is no solution! . . . The conflict between the interests of the Jews and the interests of the [Palestinian] Arabs in Palestine cannot be resolved by sophisms. I don't know any Arabs who would agree to Palestine being ours---even if we learn Arabic . . .and I have no need to learn Arabic. On the other hand, I don't see why 'Mustafa' should learn Hebrew. . . . There's a national question here. We want the country to be ours. The Arabs want the country to be theirs." (One Palestine Complete, p. 116) ''

[RoofGardener]

Hmm... well.. those first four quotes where just after there had been Arab-Israeli wars. Feelings WOULD have been running high at the time. Nevertheless, they are all political quotes by politicians. Politics is mutable, and enemies can become - if not friends - then at least to a mutual accommodation. 

However, by framing it in a religious context, compromise and accommodation becomes.. well.. extremely difficult, if not outright impossible. 

[odas]

5 hours ago, Piney said:

T.E. Lawrence had a beautiful dream of complete peace in the Middle East. But it was just a dream, and the Nazi's inciting Muslim violence against the Jews smashed any hope of it happening. 

What are you talking about? Again, one who just cannot but use muslim and nazi in one sentence. I acctualy am so close to say something in a bosnian fashion but..

Such a stupid and hipocritic post. Hipocrits. Effen hipocrits.

[Piney]

1 minute ago, odas said:

What are you talking about? Again, one who just cannot but use muslim and nazi in one sentence. I acctualy am so close to say something in a bosnian fashion but..

Such a stupid and hipocritic post. Hipocrits. Effen hipocrits.

Read some history before you make yourself look more ignorant.  

.....and another thing. I'm not anti-Muslim nor blame the Muslims. If you read my posts in the past you would realize that.

[Piney]

6 minutes ago, odas said:

What are you talking about?

Quote

While antisemitism has increased in the wake of the Arab–Israeli conflict, there were pogroms against Jews prior to the foundation of Israel, including Nazi-inspired pogroms in Algeria in the 1930s, and attacks on the Jews of Iraq and Libya in the 1940s. In 1941, 180 Jews were murdered and 700 were injured in the anti-Jewish riots known as the Farhud.^[19]Four hundred Jews were injured in violent demonstrations in Egypt in 1945 and Jewish property was vandalized and looted. In Libya, 130 Jews were killed and 266 injured. In December 1947, 13 Jews were killed in Damascus, including 8 children, and 26 were injured. In Aleppo, rioting resulted in dozens of Jewish casualties, damage to 150 Jewish homes, and the torching of 5 schools and 10 synagogues. In Yemen, 97 Jews were murdered and 120 injured.^[19]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Arab_world#Twentieth_century

[Helen of Annoy]

38 minutes ago, Piney said:

Read some history before you make yourself look more ignorant.  

.....and another thing. I'm not anti-Muslim nor blame the Muslims. If you read my posts in the past you would realize that.

Odas, me or anyone from this part of the world knows a lot about history, WWII especially. Because our history is very important to us and WWII because it still hasn't ended for us, in a way. And it's not just books that we read, schools that embedded WWII in our bone marrow, it's also our grandparents that told us everything. Every single thing. Including the not so convenient truths. 

Now, the Palestinians and the Jews. Of course the beginning of the development of their situation has everything to do with Nazis - would Israel even exist if there was no WWII - but it's just silly to say Palestinians hate Jews because Nazis told them so, disregarding the decades of land grab and discrimination that are the actual, obvious reasons why Palestinians feel and therefore act desperate.       

[Piney]

15 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Now, the Palestinians and the Jews. Of course the beginning of the development of their situation has everything to do with Nazis - would Israel even exist if there was no WWII - but it's just silly to say Palestinians hate Jews because Nazis told them so, disregarding the decades of land grab and discrimination that are the actual, obvious reasons why Palestinians feel and therefore act desperate.       

You read my posts many times saying Israel is just as guilty of the BS also. They banned AFSC, one of the service organizations I ran with, and I hope you remember that post too. 

[Piney]

@odas  and @Helen of Annoy

Buddhism MY RELIGION was wiped out in Western Asia because of the Muslim expansion.

NOBODY HAS EVER READ A POST FROM ME b****ING ABOUT IT 

[Helen of Annoy]

10 minutes ago, Piney said:

You read my posts many times saying Israel is just as guilty of the BS also. They banned AFSC, one of the service organizations I ran with, and I hope you remember that post too. 

No, I do not remember or read all of your posts, which is probably the case with everyone else. 

Anyway, back on topic, and you're not the topic, it's religions being misused again. Surprise, surprise. 

And it's not enough they have their domestic ME blasphemers who hide their politics and personal sadism behind religion, now they have American quasi-religious sect trying to coax Jesus into second coming by manipulating the trajectory of ME **** hitting the fan. 

In case you didn't notice.  

 

 

edit: and what does your personal religion or lack of it has to do with the topic? 

Edited October 12, 2018 by Helen of Annoy

[Piney]

8 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Anyway, back on topic, and you're not the topic, it's religions being misused again. Surprise, surprise. 

And it's not enough they have their domestic ME blasphemers who hide their politics and personal sadism behind religion, now they have American quasi-religious sect trying to coax Jesus into second coming by manipulating the trajectory of ME **** hitting the fan. 

In case you didn't notice.  

I agree with this 100 percent. 

 

Quote

edit: and what does your personal religion or lack of it has to do with the topic? 

I'm not American. I'm a Native American whose tribe resides in Canada and the U.S., and I'm certainly not a friggin Christian.

[RoofGardener]

1 hour ago, odas said:

What are you talking about? Again, one who just cannot but use muslim and nazi in one sentence. I acctualy am so close to say something in a bosnian fashion but..

Such a stupid and hipocritic post. Hipocrits. Effen hipocrits.

Ummm..... you can't say "muslim" and "nazi" in once sentence ? 

How about saying.. "the 13th, 21st and 23rd Waffen SS divisions" ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21st_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Skanderbeg#Formation . 

And whilst we're at it, how about the Mufti of Jerusalem ? 

[Imaginarynumber1]

Ban all religions 

[RoofGardener]

24 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Anyway, back on topic, and you're not the topic, it's religions being misused again. Surprise, surprise. 

Misused ?

Who is the biggest expert on Islam ? Your good self, or the Palestinian Authority senior adviser on Religion ? Who also happens to be the senior Sharia Jurist in Palestine ? 

But fear not... lets go to the ultimate source of authority in Sunni Islam - Al Azhir university (and mosque) in Cairo, Egypt. I'm sure they where quick to correct Mahmoud Al-Habbash's mis-use of their religion. 

Oh wait.. no.. not a peep from them. It's almost as though.. they agree ? 

Edited October 12, 2018 by RoofGardener

[Helen of Annoy]

3 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Who is the biggest expert on Islam ? Your good self, or the Palestinian Authority senior adviser on Religion ? Who also happens to be the senior Sharia Jurist in Palestine ? 

But fear not... lets go to the ultimate source of authority in Sunni Islam - Al Azhir university (and mosque) in Cairo, Egypt. I'm sure they where quick to correct Mahmoud Al-Habbash's mischaracterisation of their religion. 

Oh wait.. no.. not a peep from them. It's almost as though.. they agree ? 

And how did it come to this?

Mufti of Jerusalem told them to keep being dicks towards Jews, or there were certain issues, such as showing up in Palestine and pushing Palestinians out of their own land?

 

[RoofGardener]

11 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

And how did it come to this?

Mufti of Jerusalem told them to keep being dicks towards Jews, or there were certain issues, such as showing up in Palestine and pushing Palestinians out of their own land?

 

Back in the 1930's (and before), the Jews where NOT 'pushing Palestinians out of their own land'. They purchased that land, from the legal landlords (who where also Palestinians), in a legal fashion. From time to time, they may subsequently have evicted the illegal squatters on their newly-acquired land as well. 

Edited October 12, 2018 by RoofGardener

[Helen of Annoy]

16 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Back in the 1930's (and before), the Jews where NOT 'pushing Palestinians out of their own land'. They purchased that land, from the legal landlords (who where also Palestinians), in a legal fashion. From time to time, they may subsequently have evicted the illegal squatters on their newly-acquired land as well. 

And what year is it now? 2018. 

A lot happened in the meantime.  

No one sane objects to the actual, voluntary, usual purchasing of the land. Everyone remotely sane understands you can't toss people out of their land, in which they live, and have no place to go, except as refugees, homeless from the moment you pushed them out, just because you've decided their land is for some mythical reason yours. 

The most maddening fact about this is that it's not rare that actual Holocaust survivors are expressing their disapproval of the situation in Israel. They do not want others to suffer like they did. 

 

[RoofGardener]

1 minute ago, Helen of Annoy said:

And what year is it now? 2018. 

A lot happened in the meantime.  

No one sane objects to the actual, voluntary, usual purchasing of the land. Everyone remotely sane understands you can't toss people out of their land, in which they live, and have no place to go, except as refugees, homeless from the moment you pushed them out, just because you've decided their land is for some mythical reason yours. 

The most maddening fact about this is that it's not rare that actual Holocaust survivors are expressing their disapproval of the situation in Israel. They do not want others to suffer like they did. 

 

Umm.. well.. it was yourself who went back into pre-War Palestine. And the Jewish land THEN was bought with cash, not mythology. 

As for 2018.. well... I think Israel long since gave up on the Palestinian leadership, especially after the Oslo Accord betrayal and three attempts to destroy Israel by force. 

Well, it's getting late. We may not have Peace in Palestine, but we ARE about to get it on the Roofgarden, 'cos I'm off to bed. Nighty night all  

[kartikg]

13 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Odas, me or anyone from this part of the world knows a lot about history, WWII especially. Because our history is very important to us and WWII because it still hasn't ended for us, in a way. And it's not just books that we read, schools that embedded WWII in our bone marrow, it's also our grandparents that told us everything. Every single thing. Including the not so convenient truths. 

Now, the Palestinians and the Jews. Of course the beginning of the development of their situation has everything to do with Nazis - would Israel even exist if there was no WWII - but it's just silly to say Palestinians hate Jews because Nazis told them so, disregarding the decades of land grab and discrimination that are the actual, obvious reasons why Palestinians feel and therefore act desperate.       

Muslims hated Jews before too, heck even lot of Christians hated Jews and did terrible things, if nothing nazis must have provided more ammunition to Palestine for hating Jews, to absolve Palestine by saying that they were told by the manipulating nazis is not right. 

[RoofGardener]

14 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

....

Now, the Palestinians and the Jews. Of course the beginning of the development of their situation has everything to do with Nazis - would Israel even exist if there was no WWII - but it's just silly to say Palestinians hate Jews because Nazis told them so, disregarding the decades of land grab and discrimination that are the actual, obvious reasons why Palestinians feel and therefore act desperate.       

Yes, I'd agree with that HoA. It IS silly to say that Palestinians hate Jews because Nazi's told them so. Arab palestinians where slaughtering Jews in pogroms since the turn of the 20th Century. 

It's also worth noting - to return to the opening post in this thread - that those pogroms where invariably led and instigated by Muslim religious leaders. 

[Helen of Annoy]

1 hour ago, RoofGardener said:

Yes, I'd agree with that HoA. It IS silly to say that Palestinians hate Jews because Nazi's told them so. Arab palestinians where slaughtering Jews in pogroms since the turn of the 20th Century. 

It's also worth noting - to return to the opening post in this thread - that those pogroms where invariably led and instigated by Muslim religious leaders. 

From strictly logical point of view, it's clearly not a good idea to settle in potentially hostile areas that are not tolerant to the differences while being religiously determined yourself to stay as different and hostile as possible. 

Unless you've got illusions of grandeur that make you certain you are entitled to and will successfully destroy the natives, who are - what a surprise - at least equally determined to remain who they are, as much as you are. 

The funny part is that the same people who are lawyering the excuses for discrimination and land grab against Palestinians are deadly afraid of refugees and migrants in general. I begin to understand why. 

[Habitat]

One wonders what might have happened if the Palestinians had agreed to what seemed like generous concessions, in those almost-happened agreement talks back in the 80's on whenever it was. It does not look like a wise choice in retrospect.

[Piney]

5 minutes ago, seanjo said:

Even if Israel did not exist there would be strife because of the Sunni/Shia divide.

I forgot about that. "Catholic vs Protestant Redux".