No peace in Palestine ?

[Black Red Devil]

2 hours ago, seanjo said:

No, the oppressed have been under constant attack since the UN gifted them that land after the hideousness of the Holocaust, you can't disconnect the formation of Israel from the Holocaust, even if the UN had not said that land was theirs the Jews would have taken it, because of the Holocaust, you really can't underestimate the effect something like the Holocaust will have on the victims...unless you are an unfeeling Anti-Semite.

The Jews learned their (modern day) lessons because of the constant ongoing aggression of the surrounding Islamist Arabs. It's understandable that a country will bend to the extreme after 70 years of constant attack! And get this right...it's not about land in the Islamists eyes, it's about religion. 

 

 here we have another one that comes along telling everyone that doesn't suck up to the pro Israeli Govt/Right wing fascist agenda, an anti-semite.  Yep, the world was ready to settle them in places as far away as Tasmania and South America, that's how much the world felt so strongly about the need to associate the holocaust with a State of Israel in Palestine.

The Zionist chose to live instead in a hostile environment and flood the place with people that weren't even racially semitic, like the Russian Askenazi Jews and other Jews from the old Soviet Union.  They speak Yiddish which is even mixed with Russian and other Slavic languages. 

They've been under attack because the UK forced mass immigration of Jews on the Arabs (Balfour) when the Jewish population at the time in Palestine was less than 10%.  After WWII, the UN partitioned 2/3 of the most arable lands to the Jews and the Arab population had to accept this without revolting in your mind.  Amazing. 

The British voted to reject the Govt of Brussels for a lot less, I bet you would've fought (or maybe not if you're an armchair hawk) and taken up arms if you were forced upon, bullied, discriminated and oppressed against in your own land.

Edited October 15, 2018 by Black Red Devil

[Black Red Devil]

2 hours ago, third_eye said:

Never mind the locals up and down Palestine were fine living together for ages, sure there were this and that here and there but never the likes of the imported and highly Organized ethnic suppression transferred from a different time and place forcibly enforced onto the local population.

~

In fact, 400 years of the Inquisition against non Catholics but aimed mainly at Jews, Pogrom attacks in Russia, the Holocaust massacre in Europe but the Arabs were the worst because their Religion forced the Jizya onto non muslims.

[Black Red Devil]

2 hours ago, bmk1245 said:

I'm here with you: when Jordan will give its territory to Palestine?

The State of Palestine doesn't have a territory, it's been occupied by Israel in case you missed that part.

[+and-then]

6 hours ago, third_eye said:

If so, did JC broke his end of the bargain or did you, then, forgo living up to your end of the deal ?

~

Man, I have no clue what you are trying to say.

[+and-then]

12 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Well, if you plan to keep claiming you're Christian, you should start doubting that. Because Jesus specifically said that no one knows when the end is coming, not him, not the angels, only the Father in Heaven. So there. 

You can't coax Jesus into second coming. You're only human, you do not get to manipulate God.

Trying to force the situation into looking like something from the OT, with intention to trigger doomsday, is blasphemy - from an actual Christian point of view, because it directly contradicts Jesus' words.

So start doubting or stop hiding behind Jesus. 

Where did I say anything about His timing?  Please tell me how you get that from my words:  "It will be given to them at the proper time, of that, I have no doubt."

[SHaYap]

4 hours ago, bmk1245 said:

I'm here with you: when Jordan will give its territory to Palestine?

Nope, you were somewhere else totally.

~

2 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

In fact, 400 years of the Inquisition against non Catholics but aimed mainly at Jews, Pogrom attacks in Russia, the Holocaust massacre in Europe but the Arabs were the worst because their Religion forced the Jizya onto non muslims.

Islam became the convenient scapegoat. The Islamic nations got everything that is coveted, from the Suez to crude deposits

~ 

2 hours ago, and then said:

Man, I have no clue what you are trying to say.

Not entirely true, you have no clue to what you are reading, a form of spiritual brain freeze.

~

[RoofGardener]

3 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

 here we have another one that comes along telling everyone that doesn't suck up to the pro Israeli Govt/Right wing fascist agenda, an anti-semite.  Yep, the world was ready to settle them in places as far away as Tasmania and South America, that's how much the world felt so strongly about the need to associate the holocaust with a State of Israel in Palestine.

The Zionist chose to live instead in a hostile environment and flood the place with people that weren't even racially semitic, like the Russian Askenazi Jews and other Jews from the old Soviet Union.  They speak Yiddish which is even mixed with Russian and other Slavic languages. ....

As opposed to living with a hostile environment within Ethiopia, Uganda, South America, or Tasmania ? All of the native peoples would have objected, no matter WHERE the new "Israel" was put. Given that, you may as well put it somewhere that has a cultural resonance to the Jews. Hence Judea !

3 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

They've been under attack because the UK forced mass immigration of Jews on the Arabs (Balfour) when the Jewish population at the time in Palestine was less than 10%. 

Oh really ? Well, perhaps there is SOME truth to that. But it seems highly co-incidental that most of the anti-Jewish pogroms where on a Friday, after Friday Prayers in the mosque, and where led and encouraged by Imams, citing Islamic Scripture, rather than politicians citing demographics or Arab Nationalism.

Edited October 15, 2018 by RoofGardener

[bmk1245]

3 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

The State of Palestine doesn't have a territory, it's been occupied by Israel in case you missed that part.

 

1 hour ago, third_eye said:

Nope, you were somewhere else totally.

[...]

Sooo... Neither of you cares that Jordan occupies parts of Palestine? Why is that?

Ah, silly me, Jordan is muslim country...

[SHaYap]

6 hours ago, bmk1245 said:

 

Sooo... Neither of you cares that Jordan occupies parts of Palestine? Why is that?

Soooo ... why do you care at all ?

~

 

6 hours ago, bmk1245 said:

Ah, silly me, Jordan is muslim country...

Yes silly you ... it has nothing to do with fears conjured up from a over a thousand years ago clogging up your brain

~
 

Quote

 

~

Hashemites - Wikipedia

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashemites

The Hashemites are the ruling royal family of Jordan. The House was also the royal family of ... The ceremonial Hashemite banner of the Kingdom of Jordan ...

‎Hashim ibn Abd Manaf · ‎Prince Ra'ad bin Zeid · ‎Sharif of Mecca

 

~

 

 

[Helen of Annoy]

10 hours ago, and then said:

Where did I say anything about His timing?  Please tell me how you get that from my words:  "It will be given to them at the proper time, of that, I have no doubt."

You really enjoy being deus-vulted for your blasphemy, huh? 

All right, let me do it one more time: If you want to be a Christian, you can never, ever go against teachings of Jesus Christ. You cannot claim you have got a prophesy to share, based on the Old Testament, that is directly and obviously the opposite of what Jesus said, and which on top of it implies you know better than Jesus what future brings.   

Furthermore, a Christian won't ever gloat over genocides, especially won't actively support them, and certainly won't even try to excuse them with the Old Testament, because Jesus commanded you to love you neighbour as you love yourself and to do to others what you would have them do to you.

You are not living in the OT time, you cannot behave like people from the OT, ever since Jesus told you better. 

So, Christian, you are free to give your house and plot of land to Netanyahu, but you are not allowed to give the land of others to him. Because you wouldn't like someone else to do that unto you.   

Of course, if you wish to stick to the OT and ignore what Jesus said, you're free to do so but you're not Christian then. It would be some sort of quasi-Judaism, I guess. Weird. Why not just simply convert to real Judaism then?  

Edited October 15, 2018 by Helen of Annoy

[DarkHunter]

43 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

You really enjoy being deus-vulted for your blasphemy, huh? 

All right, let me do it one more time: If you want to be a Christian, you can never, ever go against teachings of Jesus Christ. You cannot claim you have got a prophesy to share, based on the Old Testament, that is directly and obviously the opposite of what Jesus said, and which on top of it implies you know better than Jesus what future brings.   

Furthermore, a Christian won't ever gloat over genocides, especially won't actively support them, and certainly won't even try to excuse them with the Old Testament, because Jesus commanded you to love you neighbour as you love yourself and to do to others what you would have them do to you.

You are not living in the OT time, you cannot behave like people from the OT, ever since Jesus told you better. 

So, Christian, you are free to give your house and plot of land to Netanyahu, but you are not allowed to give the land of others to him. Because you wouldn't like someone else to do that unto you.   

Of course, if you wish to stick to the OT and ignore what Jesus said, you're free to do so but you're not Christian then. It would be some sort of quasi-Judaism, I guess. Weird. Why not just simply convert to real Judaism then?  

I know this is between you and and then but there is so much wrong in your post it is amazing.  I would go through every part where you are wrong but I'm at work currently, but it will be fun to see how this all goes.

[+and-then]

48 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

but it will be fun to see how this all goes.

Nah, because I rarely interact with aunty anymore.  She's one of a few here who read what I say but purport to "understand what I think" and apparently the two often don't resemble each other.  It's just a waste of time.  When their accusations about what I actually SAID cannot be justified, they go off into some diatribe that is supposed to justify their misstatements.  It just gets boring to see them scramble to make themselves look less dishonest.

[Helen of Annoy]

1 hour ago, DarkHunter said:

I know this is between you and and then but there is so much wrong in your post it is amazing.  I would go through every part where you are wrong but I'm at work currently, but it will be fun to see how this all goes.

 

25 minutes ago, and then said:

Nah, because I rarely interact with aunty anymore.  She's one of a few here who read what I say but purport to "understand what I think" and apparently the two often don't resemble each other.  It's just a waste of time.  When their accusations about what I actually SAID cannot be justified, they go off into some diatribe that is supposed to justify their misstatements.  It just gets boring to see them scramble to make themselves look less dishonest.

Deus Vult, blasphemers

Kidding. I love me some morbid humour. 

On a less funny side, it really is an outright blasphemy to even think of misrepresenting yourself as Christian while consciously despising the words of Christ, digging though the Old Testament to justify hate, plunder and genocide.  

 

By the way, when you gloat over divide in religions of others, remember how far you have split from the true Christianity and out of what motives. Ew. 

 

Back on topic. 

Has Kushner made Middle East peaceful yet? No? What a surprise. 

God help us all, you managed to make already impossible situation so. much. worse.   

For everyone, including the sane and decent people in Israel. 

[Black Red Devil]

13 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

As opposed to living with a hostile environment within Ethiopia, Uganda, South America, or Tasmania ? All of the native peoples would have objected, no matter WHERE the new "Israel" was put. Given that, you may as well put it somewhere that has a cultural resonance to the Jews. Hence Judea !

 

The lesser of the evils huh?  I would almost believe this if it wouldn't be for that little detail about "a Greater Israel" (not only Judea) which inspired the great Herzl in his quest for a new homeland, which was the drive that inspired all of this and tends to take the focus away from simply finding a home for desperate people that suffered humiliation throughout history and eventually genocide by the hands of mainly European populations.

Sure, neither Islam, nor Christianity have a pristine history and it's always been about religion and the thousands of year old prophecies, beliefs, etc., but the reason many Muslims have become so fanatic about Islam today is because Zionism was forced on them by Christians and they rebelled. Read about Bin Laden, a pinnacle of modern day Islamic terrorism, to find out for yourself. I read once that you hardly ever used to see women wearing Burkas, these days it's almost worn as a pride badge of honor.

Giving Jews a land in mainly Christian habitats would not have been the same but the Zionists weren't interested.    

[Black Red Devil]

4 hours ago, DarkHunter said:

I know this is between you and and then but there is so much wrong in your post it is amazing.  I would go through every part where you are wrong but I'm at work currently, but it will be fun to see how this all goes.

Christian Zionism, an oxymoron if I've ever seen one.  Is it a prophecy where Jews eventually become Christians or the other way around?  Considering the faith is growing in Israel I would say the other way around.

[SHaYap]

4 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

Giving Jews a land in mainly Christian habitats would not have been the same but the Zionists weren't interested.    

The Zionists learned the hard way that Christians should never be trusted
 

Quote

 

~

God made him, and therefore let him pass for a man.
(Portia, Act 1 Scene 2)

I will buy with you, sell with you, talk with you, walk with you, and so following, but I will not eat with you, drink with you, nor pray with you. What news on the Rialto?
(Shylock, Act 1 Scene 3)

I like not fair terms and a villain's mind. 
(Bassanio, Act 1 Scene 3)

~

 

• Royal Shakespeare Company LINK

~

[RoofGardener]

10 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

The lesser of the evils huh?  I would almost believe this if it wouldn't be for that little detail about "a Greater Israel" (not only Judea) which inspired the great Herzl in his quest for a new homeland, which was the drive that inspired all of this and tends to take the focus away from simply finding a home for desperate people that suffered humiliation throughout history and eventually genocide by the hands of mainly European populations.

Sure, neither Islam, nor Christianity have a pristine history and it's always been about religion and the thousands of year old prophecies, beliefs, etc., but the reason many Muslims have become so fanatic about Islam today is because Zionism was forced on them by Christians and they rebelled. Read about Bin Laden, a pinnacle of modern day Islamic terrorism, to find out for yourself. I read once that you hardly ever used to see women wearing Burkas, these days it's almost worn as a pride badge of honor.

Giving Jews a land in mainly Christian habitats would not have been the same but the Zionists weren't interested.    

Umm... Palestine WAS a "mainly Christian habitat", until the Muslims invaded and conquered the territory. Remember Bethlehem ? Jerusalem ? 

[Black Red Devil]

1 hour ago, RoofGardener said:

Umm... Palestine WAS a "mainly Christian habitat", until the Muslims invaded and conquered the territory. Remember Bethlehem ? Jerusalem ? 

I'm talking modern age, not 20,000 years ago.

[RoofGardener]

8 minutes ago, Black Red Devil said:

I'm talking modern age, not 20,000 years ago.

Bah ! I remember when this was all Brontosaurus paddocks !

[+and-then]

7 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

I'm talking modern age, not 20,000 years ago.

More like 1400 or fewer years ago.  The point is that the Palestinians weren't native either except in the sense that their ancestors roamed the land like Bedouin.  New artifacts from ancient times appear monthly that prove the cultural history of that land.  Not a lot of Palestinian coins or architecture being unearthed though, wonder why?

[RoofGardener]

Well, they have doubled-down on the issue. 

A senior Sharia judge - Muhannad Abu Rumi - has stated on national TV that  this is a religious conflict, and against the Jews everywhere, not just Israeli jews. He also states that the 'struggle' is NOT just about Palestine.

Quote

..

The Jews leaving this land is a divine decree... The war is not only over this strip of land, as you all know the Jews want everything and not just a part [of it]. They want to subjugate us, and that we be slaves to their command... There have always been two camps in history: the camp of truth and the camp of falsehood. The people of falsehood see themselves as those who rule over everything... Among the Jews we find nothing but corruption and depravity."...

http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=26515

He doesn't refer to Israeli's or Israel at ANY stage in his longer speech. He only talks about "Jews". 

Edited October 19, 2018 by RoofGardener

[odas]

On 12/10/2018 at 1:57 PM, RoofGardener said:

Ummm..... you can't say "muslim" and "nazi" in once sentence ? 

How about saying.. "the 13th, 21st and 23rd Waffen SS divisions" ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21st_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Skanderbeg#Formation . 

And whilst we're at it, how about the Mufti of Jerusalem ? 

Of course you can, just like "christian and nazi", "French and nazi", "American and nazi", but, we would like to forget those little details and go on just with "muslim and nazi", right?

[aztek]

no need to look at crystal ball, there will never be a peace in Palestine,  pa leaders just do not want that, they have power while they "fight Jewish occupation" and brainwash every Palestinians into believing that, but in reality, they will lose power if fighting stops, they can't rule a country in peace.

[RavenHawk]

In some ways Mahmoud Al-Habbash sounds a lot like Maxine Waters and other Progs.  What do you expect?  These are kindred spirits.

[RavenHawk]

On 10/12/2018 at 12:59 PM, Helen of Annoy said:

And what year is it now? 2018. 

A lot happened in the meantime. 

I know this is a lot of ifs, but if Israel never existed and Turkey was not on the losing side in WWI, what is happening in Palestine today would probably still be happening.  The Ottomans never really treated the Arabs kindly, especially the Fellahin.  Nobody talks about it but within the Muslim world, Palestinians aren’t liked that well.  They make great cannon fodder.  Without that status, there would have been no Palestinian.  And in a Sunni region, have close ties to Shai players.  There are several points that need to be understood.  The Ottoman Empire had begun a series of cultural and land reforms, in part to incorporate more participation by its non-Muslim citizens.  In many schools, it was this Bid'ah Say'iah that Allah punished Islam with the fall of the Caliphate. 

 

In 1858 they instituted land laws where as long as an individual held title, the land was theirs.  It could be passed down to offspring as long as they remained.  When the land became unowned, it would return to the state.  In ’67, Israel secured the library that housed all of the Palestinian “deeds”.  This way, Israel could determine the legitimate deeds.  And bogus deeds that just showed up, could be debunked.  But also, Palestinians wouldn’t be able to go through the records to pull out unowned lands and claim them for themselves unlawfully.  Israel still applied the 1858 Ottoman laws to the non-Israeli lands of Palestine.  When land goes unclaimed, they wait for a claim and when none comes then Israel can legally acquire it.  In this aspect, Israel holds all the cards.  The same thing would have happened under the Ottomans.

 

In an attempt to vest more citizenship on the Dhimmis, the Ottoman Empire allowed them the ability to own land.  In 1909, Jews in Palestine with backing from foreign interests started to purchase land from the rightful landowners.  These landowners wanted to sell but they didn’t want to sell to the Palestinian Fellahin.  The Jews had money and the Fellahin did not.  That’s not the Jews fault that the Ottoman’s had their preferences.  The land belonged to the Jews now and they evicted the squatters.  This was legal and any court would have upheld it.  Now this, I believe is the source of the Palestinian hatred today but it’s just too bad.  They had no right to stay on the land.  The Jews continued to secure land up to WWI.  By the time of the Nakba, Palestinians fled their homes and lands on order of the Grand Mufti so that the Arab armies would have a clear field of fire.  The Arabs lost and the spoils of war goes to the victor.  What would you have the Jews do?  Tell the Palestinians that tried to kill them that they would save the homes and lands of the Palestinians so they could return and do this all over again?  This is why the spoils go to the victor.

No one sane objects to the actual, voluntary, usual purchasing of the land. Everyone remotely sane understands you can't toss people out of their land, in which they live, and have no place to go, except as refugees, homeless from the moment you pushed them out, just because you've decided their land is for some mythical reason yours. 

Any one remotely sane will respect the law.  How come their brother Muslims didn’t take them in?  The Fellahin did it to themselves.  They didn’t try to look ahead and didn’t try to get along.  The land wasn’t for mythical reasons.  The Jews were rebuilding a new homeland out of the ancient lands.  The Jews took the land and made it rich and fertile.  The Fellahin were subsistence farmers.  Subsistence farming is stagnation.  A people will die on their own if they don’t expand.  If Israel did not come into existence, the Palestinian would have remained separate semi-nomadic tribes.  The Ottomans would have never let them organize.  We would have seen abject poverty and famine.  It would be worse than it is now.

 

The most maddening fact about this is that it's not rare that actual Holocaust survivors are expressing their disapproval of the situation in Israel. They do not want others to suffer like they did. 

I’m pretty sure that no Palestinian has ever come close to suffering the way Holocaust survivors had.