No peace in Palestine ?

[aztek]

https://www.facebook.com/ralph.kent.5832/videos/2170091246597037/

 

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

On 11/22/2018 at 11:57 AM, and then said:

You're honest enough in this statement to admit you aren't SURE what is meant by the term Christian Zionism.  Rather than ridicule it from ignorance why not spend a few minutes learning what it actually means?  Or are such things as facts unnecessary when you are stating your opinions?  Believing that Christion Zionists are wrong is perfectly valid but to do so without truly understanding what they believe is intellectually dishonest, or at least lazy.  I'm a Christian who believes that the descendants of Jacob (Israel) have a perpetual promise to possess all the land from the "river of Egypt to the Euphrates".  BUT, I believe that the complete fulfillment of that promise is contingent on their actions before God.  IOW, it will happen when He allows it, not when Israel's leaders demand it.  I do not give them a pass when they brutalize people but I do recognize their human right to self-defense when they and their children are being attacked.  It all reduces to one point in the end.  Is achieving what you perceive as justice for the Palestinians worth a regional or even global war?  If it is then I commend your strength of commitment to your principles.  

 

The Christian belief that the descendants of Jacob have a promise that they can own the land does not mean they have the right to break God's commandments as well, inre, stealing homes and other personal property, and killing people and driving off their land in the process.

Edited November 23, 2018 by Earl.Of.Trumps

[+and-then]

6 hours ago, Truthseeker007 said:

You should at least vet your sources.  This map was debunked a long time ago but even if it were accurate, there are consequences to starting wars of aggression.  The Arabs got what they deserved.

[Truthseeker007]

4 minutes ago, and then said:

You should at least vet your sources.  This map was debunked a long time ago but even if it were accurate, there are consequences to starting wars of aggression.  The Arabs got what they deserved.

How was it debunked? It is quite obvious what the Zionist are doing to the Palestinians. It is straight up massacre and stealing of land from a native population. They should be held liable for war crimes.

[+and-then]

2 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

 

The Christian belief that the descendants of Jacob have a promise that they can own the land does not mean they have the right to break God's commandments as well, inre, stealing homes and other personal property, and killing people and driving off their land in the process.

Perhaps you can cite the post number where I made the argument that they could?

[+and-then]

7 minutes ago, Truthseeker007 said:

How was it debunked? It is quite obvious what the Zionist are doing to the Palestinians. It is straight up massacre and stealing of land from a native population. They should be held liable for war crimes.

http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2011/03/map-that-lies-and-one-that-doesnt.html

[RoofGardener]

Just now, Truthseeker007 said:

How was it debunked? 

<sigh>.. here we go again. 

The first frame shows "Palestinian Land" vs "Jewish Land". 

It wasn't "Palestinian Land"... it was Arab land - there WHERE no "Palestinians" in 1946. Or rather, EVERYONE in the region - including the Jews - where Palestinian. Notice the Negev desert. Who owned THAT ? The Arabs ? No... they didn't. Large amounts of the land where - with the fall of the ottoman Empire - effectively disorganised. (e.g. no owners). 

The second frame shows the borders as proposed by the UN. Once more, the area labelled "Palestinian Land" was actually "Arab Land".. there WHERE no "Palestinians".. not in the sense of a nation. There where Jordanians and Syrians and Bedouins... but no "Palestinians". The UN proposal makes ZERO reference to "Palestinians"... just Arabs. 

The third frame shows the situation just after the 1967 war. Once more, there where no "Palestinians". The PLO - Palestine Liberation Organisation - DID exist - just - but they did NOT have a concept of a Palestinian nation. In addition, the land labelled (falsely) as "Palestinian" was actually Jordanian  and Egyptian. It was only when Israel occupied the west bank (and initially Gaza) that the "Palestinians" emerged as a unique peoples, and it wasn't until 1988 that the PLO formally declared a Palestinian "Nation". 

The final frame shows the situation close to the modern day. However, it only shows the Category A and category B areas. The category C areas are shown as "Israeli". The only reason that Israel is still in control of these areas is that the PLO welched on the Oslo Accords. If they had kept faith, then those areas would be MUCH bigger. Indeed, they would look much more like the original UN partition plan. 

 

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

32 minutes ago, and then said:

Perhaps you can cite the post number where I made the argument that they could?

Whoa! Are you serious, and then...? We've posted quite a bit to one another. It was my understanding that your belief is that what ever Israel does to wrestle more palestinian land is Ok.

If not, then I gladly stand corrected. Welcome to the Palestinian cause.

[Truthseeker007]

41 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

<sigh>.. here we go again. 

The first frame shows "Palestinian Land" vs "Jewish Land". 

It wasn't "Palestinian Land"... it was Arab land - there WHERE no "Palestinians" in 1946. Or rather, EVERYONE in the region - including the Jews - where Palestinian. Notice the Negev desert. Who owned THAT ? The Arabs ? No... they didn't. Large amounts of the land where - with the fall of the ottoman Empire - effectively disorganised. (e.g. no owners). 

The second frame shows the borders as proposed by the UN. Once more, the area labelled "Palestinian Land" was actually "Arab Land".. there WHERE no "Palestinians".. not in the sense of a nation. There where Jordanians and Syrians and Bedouins... but no "Palestinians". The UN proposal makes ZERO reference to "Palestinians"... just Arabs. 

The third frame shows the situation just after the 1967 war. Once more, there where no "Palestinians". The PLO - Palestine Liberation Organisation - DID exist - just - but they did NOT have a concept of a Palestinian nation. In addition, the land labelled (falsely) as "Palestinian" was actually Jordanian  and Egyptian. It was only when Israel occupied the west bank (and initially Gaza) that the "Palestinians" emerged as a unique peoples, and it wasn't until 1988 that the PLO formally declared a Palestinian "Nation". 

The final frame shows the situation close to the modern day. However, it only shows the Category A and category B areas. The category C areas are shown as "Israeli". The only reason that Israel is still in control of these areas is that the PLO welched on the Oslo Accords. If they had kept faith, then those areas would be MUCH bigger. Indeed, they would look much more like the original UN partition plan. 

 

So you are creating your own fictional history?

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

@RoofGardener   " there WHERE no "Palestinians" in 1946. "

 

Roofgardener, I have it as Palestine is part of the Canaan region. And even Gold Meir was listed as "Palestinian" on her passport because she was from Palestine. Very simple. But "What is in a name?". The residents there should have a right to life regardless of what they are called. If they own title to land, that should be respected by any government that assumes control of the land. Simple, basic human rights.

Did Iraq have the right to take over Kuwait just because they had better weapons? Then who came to the Palestinians' aid, and WHY NOT?

They'll always be human no matter what factions hate them.

 

[Truthseeker007]

59 minutes ago, and then said:

http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2011/03/map-that-lies-and-one-that-doesnt.html

They show absolutely no proof of what they say in the blogspot.

[Truthseeker007]

9 minutes ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

@RoofGardener   " there WHERE no "Palestinians" in 1946. "

 

Roofgardener, I have it as Palestine is part of the Canaan region. And even Gold Meir was listed as "Palestinian" on her passport because she was from Palestine. Very simple. But "What is in a name?". The residents there should have a right to life regardless of what they are called. If they own title to land, that should be respected by any government that assumes control of the land. Simple, basic human rights.

Did Iraq have the right to take over Kuwait just because they had better weapons? Then who came to the Palestinians' aid, and WHY NOT?

They'll always be human no matter what factions hate them.

 

Precisely!! Well said!

[+and-then]

2 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Whoa! Are you serious, and then...? We've posted quite a bit to one another. It was my understanding that your belief is that what ever Israel does to wrestle more palestinian land is Ok.

If not, then I gladly stand corrected. Welcome to the Palestinian cause.

From my post, 112, 

 "BUT, I believe that the complete fulfillment of that promise is contingent on their actions before God.  IOW, it will happen when He allows it, not when Israel's leaders demand it.  I do not give them a pass when they brutalize people but I do recognize their human right to self-defense when they and their children are being attacked.  It all reduces to one point in the end.  Is achieving what you perceive as justice for the Palestinians worth a regional or even global war?  If it is then I commend your strength of commitment to your principles." 

I will never make apologies for my support of the rights of the descendants of Israel to live in that land.  Ultimately, they will inherit it all but they will not take it by force.  As to the Palestinian cause, I wish them the best in their struggle against a corrupt leadership that doesn't care about THEM at all.  It is horrible what is happening to them and their children.  Only an evil person takes delight in anyone's suffering.  But everything gets reduced to black and white in such arguments.  You're either for the Palestinians or you're wrong and possibly evil.  I refuse to accept that label.  I don't automatically assume that every person who champions the Palestinians because of the media images and stories is an anti-Semite or Jew hater.  They see images of suffering and see a picture of injustice that has been neatly encapsulated for them without context or an accurate citation of history.  That part of the story will never change until Christ Himself returns to cause the question to be settled.  

2 hours ago, Truthseeker007 said:

So you are creating your own fictional history?

He is just referring to commonly known information that isn't known - or accepted - by those who have a closed mind on this topic.  What he's saying is absolutely honest.  The references that you make to "occupation" and the ever-popular myth that "settlements" are at the root of all the conflict are dispelled by the mere existence of the PLO.  The Palestine Liberation Organization was created by the Egyptian-born Yassir Arafat in 1964 with the purpose of the

 "liberation of Palestine" through armed struggle, with much of its violence aimed at Israeli civilians" 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Liberation_Organization

The settler movement in Israel came out of the belief that the land was THEIRS by right but even those who reject this surely can't rationally blame the current violence against Jews to that movement since the PLO was formed many years prior to the first settlement's existence.  Again, the bottom line here is that in this dispute there is no room for compromise due to the bloody history of tit for tat atrocities and reprisals.  There IS room for honest disagreement about who is in the right but to effectively demand that the Jewish people living there now must accept a single state where demographics will eventually create a 58th Islamic state or that they must be rooted out and dispersed again is unacceptable, even irrational.  

So, Truthseeker, I'll ask you what I asked @Earl.Of.Trumps, considering that injustice is a reality of life in every part of our world, every day, how far do you think the world is justified in going to achieve what you consider "justice" for this one group of people, the Palestinians?  He didn't answer.  How about you?

[RoofGardener]

11 hours ago, Truthseeker007 said:

So you are creating your own fictional history?

Ummm.... no. What I have said is - I believe - accurate. It is the maps create a fictional history. Or at least, a fictional historic demographic.

[RoofGardener]

11 hours ago, Truthseeker007 said:

They show absolutely no proof of what they say in the blogspot.

Strictly speaking, you are correct. The blog post makes a series of statements without sourcing articles in support of them. 

However, the original map does the same thing

Can you dispute the figures given in the blog, or in my post #117 ?  

[RoofGardener]

11 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

@RoofGardener   " there WHERE no "Palestinians" in 1946. "

 

Roofgardener, I have it as Palestine is part of the Canaan region. And even Gold Meir was listed as "Palestinian" on her passport because she was from Palestine. Very simple. But "What is in a name?". The residents there should have a right to life regardless of what they are called. If they own title to land, that should be respected by any government that assumes control of the land. Simple, basic human rights.

Did Iraq have the right to take over Kuwait just because they had better weapons? Then who came to the Palestinians' aid, and WHY NOT?

They'll always be human no matter what factions hate them.

 

I'd agree entirely, Earl. My point was merely to debunk the "four maps" graphic, which is clearly demographically incorrect, and appears to be outright propaganda.

As for ".. who came to the Palestinians aid'... well... if you mean Palestinian Arabs, then the answer would be... Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Libya, Morrocco, Yemen, and a couple of others. They all invaded the newly-declared state of Israel in 1948. (and in 1973, the Soviet Union was added to that list). 

Of course, it is a moot point as to whether they really wanted to help the Arab Palestinians, or merely to destroy Israel. It's worth bearing in mind that the territory occupied by the Palestinian Arabs was invaded and annexed in 1948 by Egypt and Jordan. The Palestinian Arabs all became either Egyptian or Jordanian citizens. NOBODY was talking about a Palestinian State back in those days. Or indeed, at any time until the 1980's, when the surrounding Arab states (and the Soviet Union) finally realised that they could not destroy Israel by direct force of arms. 

[Truthseeker007]

2 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Ummm.... no. What I have said is - I believe - accurate. It is the maps create a fictional history. Or at least, a fictional historic demographic.

The land was stolen from the natives any way you look at it. And now the natives are being persecuted by the tyrants.

[Black Red Devil]

On 11/23/2018 at 3:57 AM, and then said:

You're honest enough in this statement to admit you aren't SURE what is meant by the term Christian Zionism.  Rather than ridicule it from ignorance why not spend a few minutes learning what it actually means?  Or are such things as facts unnecessary when you are stating your opinions?  Believing that Christion Zionists are wrong is perfectly valid but to do so without truly understanding what they believe is intellectually dishonest, or at least lazy.  I'm a Christian who believes that the descendants of Jacob (Israel) have a perpetual promise to possess all the land from the "river of Egypt to the Euphrates".  BUT, I believe that the complete fulfillment of that promise is contingent on their actions before God.  IOW, it will happen when He allows it, not when Israel's leaders demand it.  I do not give them a pass when they brutalize people but I do recognize their human right to self-defense when they and their children are being attacked.  It all reduces to one point in the end.  Is achieving what you perceive as justice for the Palestinians worth a regional or even global war?  If it is then I commend your strength of commitment to your principles.  

What I find amazingly intriguing in your faith is that the average Jews are the ones that mistrust you the most because of your contradicting beliefs despite the fact that millions of dollars were spent by the Christian Zionist foundation to help Jews migrate to Israel from all corners of the world.  Probably most Jews don't even believe in your "Greater Israel from the river of Egypt to the Euphrates promise by God" but you guys do.  What can I say, worship the "chosen people" to your hearts content as far as I'm concerned, I just don't believe stories written ions ago should decide the fate of modern people like you guys do.

[Truthseeker007]

2 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Strictly speaking, you are correct. The blog post makes a series of statements without sourcing articles in support of them. 

However, the original map does the same thing

Can you dispute the figures given in the blog, or in my post #117 ?  

Thanks for the information you presented. I was not aware the maps were not accurate so I thank you for that. It is always good to learn something new.

[aztek]

The Haavara Agreement (Hebrew: הסכם העברה Translit.: heskem haavara Translated: "transfer agreement") was an agreement between Nazi Germany and Zionist German Jews signed on 25 August 1933. The agreement was finalized after three months of talks by the Zionist Federation of Germany, the Anglo-Palestine Bank (under the directive of the Jewish Agency) and the economic authorities of Nazi Germany. It was a major factor in making possible the migration of approximately 60,000 German Jews to Palestine in 1933–1939.^[1]

[+and-then]

5 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

What can I say, worship the "chosen people" to your hearts content as far as I'm concerned, I just don't believe stories written ions ago should decide the fate of modern people like you guys do.

I assume the "worship" comment is meant to be snarky, excuse me if I'm wrong.  Of course, CZ's don't worship Jews.  We do not think of them as superior to any other human being on the planet or that they are inherently good people just because they are Jewish.  It's nonsense like this that takes away credibility in this discussion.  I don't have any problem with ANYONE who disagrees with my faith and outlook but when people decide to flay it with characterizations that are false then it tells me they are not really aware of what Christian Zionists believe. 

I agree with you that those "stories" shouldn't decide the fate of people.  I don't believe they do, in any material way.  The numbers of CZ's and Evangelicals (that term even makes believers SOUND insane) that believe Israel's descendants have a right to live in their ancient homeland are very few, in the big picture.  The fate of the Jews - and their Muslim neighbors in the region - will be determined by the actions THEY take against each other.  I'd note that to date not a single CZ has blown up a public conveyance or entertainment venue "for the cause".  I'm not trying to be a jerk here, I'm just saying that simply believing that Bible prophecy about the descendants of Israel is not an act of harm against anyone.  

I have no doubt that the great majority of Jews do not find it easy to trust Christians.  Christians were responsible for FAR more dead Jews than Muslims ever have been.  It is one of the great failings of the church and it is a disgrace to the name of Christ.  If your mind is at peace over supporting Palestinians in this struggle, regardless what methods they use, then that is your right.  I choose to support the right of Jews, whether they hate me or not, to live in that land.  I do not support their choice to behave in a hateful way to their neighbors nor do I think they have a right to carelessly slaughter civilians who aren't trying to kill them - can you say the same of the Palestinians?  

No, I don't worship God's "Chosen".  I also don't attach the same meaning to that word that you seem to do.  In fact, I think many Jews today may have developed a kind of arrogance about that title and have skewed its meaning.  I'd also say that when determining who's to blame in such an ancient blood feud, having nothing positive or redeeming to note about one of the parties involved tells me that you can't be a serious scholar of the issue.

[Black Red Devil]

5 hours ago, and then said:

I assume the "worship" comment is meant to be snarky, excuse me if I'm wrong.  Of course, CZ's don't worship Jews.  We do not think of them as superior to any other human being on the planet or that they are inherently good people just because they are Jewish.  It's nonsense like this that takes away credibility in this discussion.  I don't have any problem with ANYONE who disagrees with my faith and outlook but when people decide to flay it with characterizations that are false then it tells me they are not really aware of what Christian Zionists believe. 

I agree with you that those "stories" shouldn't decide the fate of people.  I don't believe they do, in any material way.  The numbers of CZ's and Evangelicals (that term even makes believers SOUND insane) that believe Israel's descendants have a right to live in their ancient homeland are very few, in the big picture.  The fate of the Jews - and their Muslim neighbors in the region - will be determined by the actions THEY take against each other.  I'd note that to date not a single CZ has blown up a public conveyance or entertainment venue "for the cause".  I'm not trying to be a jerk here, I'm just saying that simply believing that Bible prophecy about the descendants of Israel is not an act of harm against anyone.  

I have no doubt that the great majority of Jews do not find it easy to trust Christians.  Christians were responsible for FAR more dead Jews than Muslims ever have been.  It is one of the great failings of the church and it is a disgrace to the name of Christ.  If your mind is at peace over supporting Palestinians in this struggle, regardless what methods they use, then that is your right.  I choose to support the right of Jews, whether they hate me or not, to live in that land.  I do not support their choice to behave in a hateful way to their neighbors nor do I think they have a right to carelessly slaughter civilians who aren't trying to kill them - can you say the same of the Palestinians?  

No, I don't worship God's "Chosen".  I also don't attach the same meaning to that word that you seem to do.  In fact, I think many Jews today may have developed a kind of arrogance about that title and have skewed its meaning.  I'd also say that when determining who's to blame in such an ancient blood feud, having nothing positive or redeeming to note about one of the parties involved tells me that you can't be a serious scholar of the issue.

Well that's laughable coming from you.  You've even thrown in your religious beliefs to justify your unbiased positioning.  Look, it might come to your surprise but I don't blindly support anyone, not even the Palestinians.  In fact I don't support what Hamas does and I mistrust Abbas.  The only reason why I get involved in these discussions is because I see something wrong and I have my say, which seems to always attract opposing responses from the pro-Zionist/Conservative/US-Israeli relationship followers. Above all, I've never suggested to be an expert or scholar.

The other reason why I particularly follow what happens in the Middle East and especially between the Arabs and Israel is because it's been a major factor in the rise of pan Arab sentiments which have been the headline of modern day history since WWII.  The west have been interfering and deciding the fate of what happens in the region since the fall of the Ottomans and above all have influenced the rise of puppet dictators and shaken hands with murderous allies and fanatics purely out of interest.  The Ottomans attacked Europe for centuries and in the end got what they deserved but instead of helping the region to prosper and develop after it's demise, similar to what happened to Germans, Italians and Japanese after WWII, we created constant turmoil and the likes of Bin Laden, Al Queda and ISIS are the result (actually many believe they were purposely created by the west).  All these are verifiable facts, not my 'expert' opinion.  How much of this was influenced by Zionist idealism?  Not sure, but looking at it cynically you tend to believe that what's been happening in the ME and NA has been of an advantage to the Jews in Israel and Christians in the west.  Subsequently, commoners like myself can reek the financial rewards and live in a prosperous society and hate anyone from the region that reacts against us, call them terrorists when they kill some of our innocent, make them the enemies of Jews and Christians because of their religious texts, despite the fact like you said, Christians have killed more Jews than Arabs have.

The bottom line and then is that this has nothing to do with what religious scriptures have defined of God's will.  The scriptures have been an excuse and the likes of the Palestinians are just casualties on the road to the bigger picture.

Edited November 24, 2018 by Black Red Devil

[+and-then]

1 hour ago, Black Red Devil said:

You've even thrown in your religious beliefs to justify your unbiased positioning.

I've never made the claim of being unbiased in this situation.  I support the right of the people of Israel to live in the land.  I say it all the time.  Also, if I seemed to be implying that you were claiming to be an expert, it wasn't my intention.  I WAS calling you out for characterizing me - and Christian Zionism - without really understanding what it is.  As I said, disagreeing with the belief is fine but making statements about those who support it without understanding what it is, IMO, is intellectually lazy at best.  Perhaps the modern Jews who labored to build the state of Israel did use the Bible to justify actions that might have had other, less pure motives.  Human beings - all of us - are like that at times.  I also never said that the Jews had a right to mistreat anyone.  We just differ drastically on what constitutes mistreatment when both sides are dealing death to each other's citizens.  

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

On 11/23/2018 at 7:25 PM, and then said:

From my post, 112, 

 "BUT, I believe that the complete fulfillment of that promise is contingent on their actions before God.  IOW, it will happen when He allows it, not when Israel's leaders demand it.  I do not give them a pass when they brutalize people but I do recognize their human right to self-defense when they and their children are being attacked.  It all reduces to one point in the end.  Is achieving what you perceive as justice for the Palestinians worth a regional or even global war?  If it is then I commend your strength of commitment to your principles." 

I will never make apologies for my support of the rights of the descendants of Israel to live in that land.  Ultimately, they will inherit it all but they will not take it by force.  As to the Palestinian cause, I wish them the best in their struggle against a corrupt leadership that doesn't care about THEM at all.  It is horrible what is happening to them and their children.  Only an evil person takes delight in anyone's suffering.  But everything gets reduced to black and white in such arguments.  You're either for the Palestinians or you're wrong and possibly evil.  I refuse to accept that label.  I don't automatically assume that every person who champions the Palestinians because of the media images and stories is an anti-Semite or Jew hater.  They see images of suffering and see a picture of injustice that has been neatly encapsulated for them without context or an accurate citation of history.  That part of the story will never change until Christ Himself returns to cause the question to be settled.  

He is just referring to commonly known information that isn't known - or accepted - by those who have a closed mind on this topic.  What he's saying is absolutely honest.  The references that you make to "occupation" and the ever-popular myth that "settlements" are at the root of all the conflict are dispelled by the mere existence of the PLO.  The Palestine Liberation Organization was created by the Egyptian-born Yassir Arafat in 1964 with the purpose of the

 "liberation of Palestine" through armed struggle, with much of its violence aimed at Israeli civilians" 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Liberation_Organization

The settler movement in Israel came out of the belief that the land was THEIRS by right but even those who reject this surely can't rationally blame the current violence against Jews to that movement since the PLO was formed many years prior to the first settlement's existence.  Again, the bottom line here is that in this dispute there is no room for compromise due to the bloody history of tit for tat atrocities and reprisals.  There IS room for honest disagreement about who is in the right but to effectively demand that the Jewish people living there now must accept a single state where demographics will eventually create a 58th Islamic state or that they must be rooted out and dispersed again is unacceptable, even irrational.  

So, Truthseeker, I'll ask you what I asked @Earl.Of.Trumps, considering that injustice is a reality of life in every part of our world, every day, how far do you think the world is justified in going to achieve what you consider "justice" for this one group of people, the Palestinians?  He didn't answer.  How about you?

Israelis have a right to self defense. What if their needed defense is because they unjustly brutalized people and retaliation ensued? You don't blame immigrant Jews for this? Palestinians never invaded Russia. It was Euro Jews that invaded Palestine. Now, many innocent Palestinians sit miserably in refugee camps because of Euro Jew brutalization of the people and theft of their homes and land.

And you blame the Palestinians for fighting back because it puts Israeli's on defense??? Like Israel has to worry about bottle rockets from Gaza?

The problems that come out of a single state solution does not look good for Jews, of course. They should have thought of that BEFORE their Zionist movement flooded the region. I agree with you that the cause for concern in the ME is high, and now that Israel has detailed Iranian plans for 5 nuclear bombs to be made, the stakes are even higher. Nobody ever properly policed Israel the way other countries are policed by the US and others. So the people are taking the only logical option for them, **protect themselves** and use any means available. Yes, and then, the Palestinians have a right to self defense. And in the longer run, if Israel does not change its ways and there is great harm that comes to Israel, they've only themselves to blame.

The problem with Israeli Euro Jews is they can't stand living with anyone else. They hate everything that is NOT JEW. They even hate the Sephardi Jews. Not a good way to have friendly neighbors.

 

 

[+and-then]

15 minutes ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

And in the longer run, if Israel does not change its ways and there is great harm that comes to Israel, they've only themselves to blame.

Why won't you answer my question?   We'll never agree about the right of Jews to live on that land and that's fine.  My question is, what level of force do you believe is justifiable to use against Israel to achieve "justice" for the Palestinians?  It really is a simple question.