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RoofGardener

No peace in Palestine ?

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seanjo
On 12/10/2018 at 11:37 AM, Piney said:

T.E. Lawrence had a beautiful dream of complete peace in the Middle East. But it was just a dream, and the Nazi's inciting Muslim violence against the Jews smashed any hope of it happening. 

Even if Israel did not exist there would be strife because of the Sunni/Shia divide.

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Piney
5 minutes ago, seanjo said:

Even if Israel did not exist there would be strife because of the Sunni/Shia divide.

I forgot about that. "Catholic vs Protestant Redux". 

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Black Red Devil
14 hours ago, Habitat said:

One wonders what might have happened if the Palestinians had agreed to what seemed like generous concessions, in those almost-happened agreement talks back in the 80's on whenever it was. It does not look like a wise choice in retrospect.

Ask that question after you read about Theodor Herzl, the creator of modern Zionism, which is basically the bible of the Likud Party, who holds majority seats in the Knesset (the Party coming second is called Zionist Union :P), who Netanyahu is the Leader of and who has recently declared considering a move to annex the West Bank. Basically, to cut a long story short, the Zionist mission wasn't only to give Jews a home in the Holy Land but also to fulfill the vision of a Greater Israel.

Edited by Black Red Devil
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Black Red Devil
On 10/12/2018 at 7:33 PM, RoofGardener said:

It seems that a senior PA official has made TV speeches recently in which he has painted the conflict with Israel as a religious battle between Islam and Jews. Mahmoud Al-Habbash - the senior Sharia jurist in Palestine, and the personal religious advisor to PA (and PLO) chairman Mahmoud Abbass - stated that the conflict was "..The battle of history between Islam and the enemies of Islam".  

http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=26477

Not much room for compromise and peace THERE then, is there ? 

You said it best in another thread, it's called tribalism.  I used to think that by solely reducing the influence of religion, the main problems in our world would disappear.  I still do but not as strongly.  It seems that as humans we have this need to find a reason for confrontation. 

These social differences start at the highest echelon levels in our world and stream down all the way to family.  First it's a dislike for other countries based on factors relating to historical, religious, political & ideological differences, to name the most common.  Then at a national and regional level you can add race and culture because of the direct influence/contact between these "species" within the same society.  Finally down to family with increasing gender clashes.

Call it instinct for survival, xenophobia, greed, don't know, but it seems like their is a script in our human DNA that pushes us to always find an excuse to challenge the next enemy.  Islam vs Judaism is one of the hot topics in the world in our era but it's one of many in our human history.

Maybe we need to find some aliens to fight so the world can finally group up against a common enemy to unleash against. ;)

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Habitat
42 minutes ago, Black Red Devil said:

Ask that question after you read about Theodor Herzl, the creator of modern Zionism, which is basically the bible of the Likud Party, who holds majority seats in the Knesset (the Party coming second is called Zionist Union :P), who Netanyahu is the Leader of and who has recently declared considering a move to annex the West Bank. Basically, to cut a long story short, the Zionist mission wasn't only to give Jews a home in the Holy Land but also to fulfill the vision of a Greater Israel.

I am talking pre-Netanyahu, and at a time when the news media had more cred than today, there seemed to be a strong view that a great opportunity had been lost.

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Black Red Devil
23 minutes ago, Habitat said:

I am talking pre-Netanyahu, and at a time when the news media had more cred than today, there seemed to be a strong view that a great opportunity had been lost.

I was talking about Theodor Herzl whose vision extends throughout the period you're talking about up to the realisation of the current one I mentioned.

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and then
3 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

I was talking about Theodor Herzl whose vision extends throughout the period you're talking about up to the realisation of the current one I mentioned.

It really isn't surprising that they would desire to see the possession of all the land they had been promised so long ago.  You can disagree and dispute as you like but they are the only people who have a written promise that has stood for millennia.  

https://www.differentspirit.org/articles/boundaries.php

 

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Black Red Devil
2 hours ago, and then said:

It really isn't surprising that they would desire to see the possession of all the land they had been promised so long ago.  You can disagree and dispute as you like but they are the only people who have a written promise that has stood for millennia.  

https://www.differentspirit.org/articles/boundaries.php

 

So Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Iraq better watch out because after the Palestinians, they're next.  The Jewish God has promised his followers some of their lands.  Good luck with that.

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RoofGardener
7 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

Ask that question after you read about Theodor Herzl, the creator of modern Zionism, which is basically the bible of the Likud Party, who holds majority seats in the Knesset (the Party coming second is called Zionist Union :P), who Netanyahu is the Leader of and who has recently declared considering a move to annex the West Bank. Basically, to cut a long story short, the Zionist mission wasn't only to give Jews a home in the Holy Land but also to fulfill the vision of a Greater Israel.

Lets not forget that at the turn of the 20th Century, the land being offered to the Jews WAS (almost) "Greater Israel". Then the British pre-empted matters by giving a whole swathe of land to the Arabs - currently reffered to as Jordan - with the idea that the Jews got ALL of what we now call "Palestine". 

The Arabs took Jordan, and then said "OK.. now we want Palestine as well". 

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Black Red Devil
1 hour ago, RoofGardener said:

Lets not forget that at the turn of the 20th Century, the land being offered to the Jews WAS (almost) "Greater Israel". Then the British pre-empted matters by giving a whole swathe of land to the Arabs - currently reffered to as Jordan - with the idea that the Jews got ALL of what we now call "Palestine". 

The Arabs took Jordan, and then said "OK.. now we want Palestine as well". 

How many Jews were living in the area Jordan now occupies? Not many.  The best proposals the Jews got was a land in Ethiopia where there were actually a significant number of Jews, but they refused because, despite all the "travesties" they suffered during WWII, they weren't interested in A LAND for Jews, but THE Zionist land which was mostly occupied by Arabs at the time.  What's followed ever since is a consequence of their choice.

Edited by Black Red Devil

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RoofGardener
2 minutes ago, Black Red Devil said:

How many Jews were living in the area Jordan now occupies? Not many.  The best proposals the Jews got was a land in Ethiopia where there were actually a significant number of Jews, but they refused because, despite the all travesties of WWII, they weren't interested in A LAND for Jews, but THE Zionist land which was mostly occupied by Arabs at the time.  What's followed ever since is a consequence of their choice.

Hmmm.... Ethiopia ? Yeeees.... ummm.. isn't that full of Ethiopians, who might object to this plan ? 

Ethiopia is a landlocked country with with a large and well-armed native population, and six - potential hostile - neighbours. Hardly an attractive proposition. 

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seanjo
10 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

I was talking about Theodor Herzl whose vision extends throughout the period you're talking about up to the realisation of the current one I mentioned.

Why did Herzl (and others) decide to pursue modern Zionism?

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seanjo
2 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

How many Jews were living in the area Jordan now occupies? Not many.  The best proposals the Jews got was a land in Ethiopia where there were actually a significant number of Jews, but they refused because, despite all the "travesties" they suffered during WWII, they weren't interested in A LAND for Jews, but THE Zionist land which was mostly occupied by Arabs at the time.  What's followed ever since is a consequence of their choice.

I thought it was Uganda.

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Phaeton80
Quote

Top Ten Myths about the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

A proper understanding of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict requires exposing numerous myths about its origins and the reasons it persists.

Although Arabs were a majority in Palestine prior to the creation of the state of Israel, there had always been a Jewish population, as well. For the most part, Jewish Palestinians got along with their Arab neighbors. This began to change with the onset of the Zionist movement, because the Zionists rejected the right of the Palestinians to self-determination and wanted Palestine for their own, to create a “Jewish State” in a region where Arabs were the majority and owned most of the land.

For instance, after a series of riots in Jaffa in 1921 resulting in the deaths of 47 Jews and 48 Arabs, the occupying British held a commission of inquiry, which reported their finding that “there is no inherent anti-Semitism in the country, racial or religious.” Rather, Arab attacks on Jewish communities were the result of Arab fears about the stated goal of the Zionists to take over the land.

After major violence again erupted in 1929, the British Shaw Commission report noted that “In less than 10 years three serious attacks have been made by Arabs on Jews. For 80 years before the first of these attacks there is no recorded instance of any similar incidents.” Representatives from all sides of the emerging conflict testified to the commission that prior to the First World War, “the Jews and Arabs lived side by side if not in amity, at least with tolerance, a quality which today is almost unknown in Palestine.” The problem was that “The Arab people of Palestine are today united in their demand for representative government”, but were being denied that right by the Zionists and their British benefactors.

The British Hope-Simpson report of 1930 similarly noted that Jewish residents of non-Zionist communities in Palestine enjoyed friendship with their Arab neighbors. “It is quite a common sight to see an Arab sitting in the verandah of a Jewish house”, the report noted. “The position is entirely different in the Zionist colonies.”

https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2010/06/17/top-ten-myths-about-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/

 

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RoofGardener
29 minutes ago, Phaeton80 said:

"...... After major violence again erupted in 1929, the British Shaw Commission report noted that “In less than 10 years three serious attacks have been made by Arabs on Jews. For 80 years before the first of these attacks there is no recorded instance of any similar incidents.” Representatives from all sides of the emerging conflict testified to the commission that prior to the First World War, “the Jews and Arabs lived side by side if not in amity, at least with tolerance,..."

Tolerance ? Well.. yes... in a state of dhimmitude. The Jews got along with the Arabs because they "knew their place" as second class citizens. Under Zionism, however, they started to stand up for themselves, and demand equality. And so the Arabs got angry and tried to subdue them. 

As for the statement that ".... “there is no inherent anti-Semitism in the country, racial or religious.”, how come all of the anti-Jewish pogroms where led by Imams, and mostly occurred after Friday prayers in the mosques" ? Sounds pretty Religious to ME ? Just as the opening post quotation does in more recent times. 

 

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and then
9 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

So Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Iraq better watch out because after the Palestinians, they're next.  The Jewish God has promised his followers some of their lands.  Good luck with that.

I don't need any luck.  I didn't say I agreed that they should try to TAKE the land.  It will be given to them at the proper time, of that, I have no doubt.

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Helen of Annoy
1 hour ago, and then said:

I don't need any luck.  I didn't say I agreed that they should try to TAKE the land.  It will be given to them at the proper time, of that, I have no doubt.

Well, if you plan to keep claiming you're Christian, you should start doubting that. Because Jesus specifically said that no one knows when the end is coming, not him, not the angels, only the Father in Heaven. So there. 

You can't coax Jesus into second coming. You're only human, you do not get to manipulate God.

Trying to force the situation into looking like something from the OT, with intention to trigger doomsday, is blasphemy - from an actual Christian point of view, because it directly contradicts Jesus' words.

So start doubting or stop hiding behind Jesus. 

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third_eye

I believe JC signed on only for a ONE time one Crucifixion deal ...

~

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and then
2 hours ago, third_eye said:

I believe JC signed on only for a ONE time one Crucifixion deal ...

~

True, indeed.  Who said otherwise?

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third_eye
2 hours ago, and then said:

True, indeed.  Who said otherwise?

If so, did JC broke his end of the bargain or did you, then, forgo living up to your end of the deal ?

~

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Black Red Devil
15 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Hmmm.... Ethiopia ? Yeeees.... ummm.. isn't that full of Ethiopians, who might object to this plan ? 

Ethiopia is a landlocked country with with a large and well-armed native population, and six - potential hostile - neighbours. Hardly an attractive proposition. 

The Beta Jews.  There are approximately 120,000 descendants of them living in Israel today, so there quite a significant number living in Ethiopia at the time (not sure how many) together with a large number of Christians in the north of the country.  In the end they decided to live in a less hostile environment. :P

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Black Red Devil
13 hours ago, seanjo said:

Why did Herzl (and others) decide to pursue modern Zionism?

Post 28, the last phrase.  Probably not the only reason but the main one.

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Black Red Devil
13 hours ago, seanjo said:

I thought it was Uganda.

There were many proposals, most of them less hostile.

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seanjo
7 minutes ago, Black Red Devil said:

Post 28, the last phrase.  Probably not the only reason but the main one.

 

 

 

Try Russian Pograms.

 

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seanjo
10 minutes ago, Black Red Devil said:

Post 28, the last phrase.  Probably not the only reason but the main one.

 

 

 

Try Russian Pograms.

 

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