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RoofGardener

No peace in Palestine ?

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third_eye
4 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

Giving Jews a land in mainly Christian habitats would not have been the same but the Zionists weren't interested. :no:   

The Zionists learned the hard way that Christians should never be trusted
 

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God made him, and therefore let him pass for a man.
(Portia, Act 1 Scene 2)

I will buy with you, sell with you, talk with you, walk with you, and so following, but I will not eat with you, drink with you, nor pray with you. What news on the Rialto?
(Shylock, Act 1 Scene 3)


I like not fair terms and a villain's mind. 
(Bassanio, Act 1 Scene 3)

~

 

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RoofGardener
10 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

The lesser of the evils huh?  I would almost believe this if it wouldn't be for that little detail about "a Greater Israel" (not only Judea) which inspired the great Herzl in his quest for a new homeland, which was the drive that inspired all of this and tends to take the focus away from simply finding a home for desperate people that suffered humiliation throughout history and eventually genocide by the hands of mainly European populations.

Sure, neither Islam, nor Christianity have a pristine history and it's always been about religion and the thousands of year old prophecies, beliefs, etc., but the reason many Muslims have become so fanatic about Islam today is because Zionism was forced on them by Christians and they rebelled. Read about Bin Laden, a pinnacle of modern day Islamic terrorism, to find out for yourself. I read once that you hardly ever used to see women wearing Burkas, these days it's almost worn as a pride badge of honor.

Giving Jews a land in mainly Christian habitats would not have been the same but the Zionists weren't interested. :no:   

Umm... Palestine WAS a "mainly Christian habitat", until the Muslims invaded and conquered the territory. Remember Bethlehem ? Jerusalem ? 

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Black Red Devil
1 hour ago, RoofGardener said:

Umm... Palestine WAS a "mainly Christian habitat", until the Muslims invaded and conquered the territory. Remember Bethlehem ? Jerusalem ? 

I'm talking modern age, not 20,000 years ago.

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RoofGardener
8 minutes ago, Black Red Devil said:

I'm talking modern age, not 20,000 years ago.

Bah ! I remember when this was all Brontosaurus paddocks !

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7 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

I'm talking modern age, not 20,000 years ago.

More like 1400 or fewer years ago.  The point is that the Palestinians weren't native either except in the sense that their ancestors roamed the land like Bedouin.  New artifacts from ancient times appear monthly that prove the cultural history of that land.  Not a lot of Palestinian coins or architecture being unearthed though, wonder why?

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RoofGardener

Well, they have doubled-down on the issue. 

A senior Sharia judge - Muhannad Abu Rumi - has stated on national TV that  this is a religious conflict, and against the Jews everywhere, not just Israeli jews. He also states that the 'struggle' is NOT just about Palestine.

Quote

..

The Jews leaving this land is a divine decree... The war is not only over this strip of land, as you all know the Jews want everything and not just a part [of it]. They want to subjugate us, and that we be slaves to their command... There have always been two camps in history: the camp of truth and the camp of falsehood. The people of falsehood see themselves as those who rule over everything... Among the Jews we find nothing but corruption and depravity."...

http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=26515

He doesn't refer to Israeli's or Israel at ANY stage in his longer speech. He only talks about "Jews". 

Edited by RoofGardener
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odas
On 12/10/2018 at 1:57 PM, RoofGardener said:

Ummm..... you can't say "muslim" and "nazi" in once sentence ? 

How about saying.. "the 13th, 21st and 23rd Waffen SS divisions" ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21st_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Skanderbeg#Formation . 

And whilst we're at it, how about the Mufti of Jerusalem ? 

Of course you can, just like "christian and nazi", "French and nazi", "American and nazi", but, we would like to forget those little details and go on just with "muslim and nazi", right?

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aztek

no need to look at crystal ball, there will never be a peace in Palestine,  pa leaders just do not want that, they have power while they "fight Jewish occupation" and brainwash every Palestinians into believing that, but in reality, they will lose power if fighting stops, they can't rule a country in peace.

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RavenHawk

In some ways Mahmoud Al-Habbash sounds a lot like Maxine Waters and other Progs.  What do you expect?  These are kindred spirits.

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RavenHawk
On 10/12/2018 at 12:59 PM, Helen of Annoy said:

And what year is it now? 2018. 

A lot happened in the meantime. 

I know this is a lot of ifs, but if Israel never existed and Turkey was not on the losing side in WWI, what is happening in Palestine today would probably still be happening.  The Ottomans never really treated the Arabs kindly, especially the Fellahin.  Nobody talks about it but within the Muslim world, Palestinians aren’t liked that well.  They make great cannon fodder.  Without that status, there would have been no Palestinian.  And in a Sunni region, have close ties to Shai players.  There are several points that need to be understood.  The Ottoman Empire had begun a series of cultural and land reforms, in part to incorporate more participation by its non-Muslim citizens.  In many schools, it was this Bid'ah Say'iah that Allah punished Islam with the fall of the Caliphate. 

 

In 1858 they instituted land laws where as long as an individual held title, the land was theirs.  It could be passed down to offspring as long as they remained.  When the land became unowned, it would return to the state.  In ’67, Israel secured the library that housed all of the Palestinian “deeds”.  This way, Israel could determine the legitimate deeds.  And bogus deeds that just showed up, could be debunked.  But also, Palestinians wouldn’t be able to go through the records to pull out unowned lands and claim them for themselves unlawfully.  Israel still applied the 1858 Ottoman laws to the non-Israeli lands of Palestine.  When land goes unclaimed, they wait for a claim and when none comes then Israel can legally acquire it.  In this aspect, Israel holds all the cards.  The same thing would have happened under the Ottomans.

 

In an attempt to vest more citizenship on the Dhimmis, the Ottoman Empire allowed them the ability to own land.  In 1909, Jews in Palestine with backing from foreign interests started to purchase land from the rightful landowners.  These landowners wanted to sell but they didn’t want to sell to the Palestinian Fellahin.  The Jews had money and the Fellahin did not.  That’s not the Jews fault that the Ottoman’s had their preferences.  The land belonged to the Jews now and they evicted the squatters.  This was legal and any court would have upheld it.  Now this, I believe is the source of the Palestinian hatred today but it’s just too bad.  They had no right to stay on the land.  The Jews continued to secure land up to WWI.  By the time of the Nakba, Palestinians fled their homes and lands on order of the Grand Mufti so that the Arab armies would have a clear field of fire.  The Arabs lost and the spoils of war goes to the victor.  What would you have the Jews do?  Tell the Palestinians that tried to kill them that they would save the homes and lands of the Palestinians so they could return and do this all over again?  This is why the spoils go to the victor.

No one sane objects to the actual, voluntary, usual purchasing of the land. Everyone remotely sane understands you can't toss people out of their land, in which they live, and have no place to go, except as refugees, homeless from the moment you pushed them out, just because you've decided their land is for some mythical reason yours. 

Any one remotely sane will respect the law.  How come their brother Muslims didn’t take them in?  The Fellahin did it to themselves.  They didn’t try to look ahead and didn’t try to get along.  The land wasn’t for mythical reasons.  The Jews were rebuilding a new homeland out of the ancient lands.  The Jews took the land and made it rich and fertile.  The Fellahin were subsistence farmers.  Subsistence farming is stagnation.  A people will die on their own if they don’t expand.  If Israel did not come into existence, the Palestinian would have remained separate semi-nomadic tribes.  The Ottomans would have never let them organize.  We would have seen abject poverty and famine.  It would be worse than it is now.

 

The most maddening fact about this is that it's not rare that actual Holocaust survivors are expressing their disapproval of the situation in Israel. They do not want others to suffer like they did. 

I’m pretty sure that no Palestinian has ever come close to suffering the way Holocaust survivors had.

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and then
On 10/15/2018 at 4:17 PM, Black Red Devil said:

Is it a prophecy where Jews eventually become Christians or the other way around? 

Actually, it isn't that at all.  It is a belief that the descendants of Israel have an everlasting RIGHT to live in the land of their ancestors, promised irrevocably to them by the same God we worship.  Christian Evangelicals believe that Jews will eventually recognize Christ as their Messiah but the two are not mutually dependent.  To those who want to pigeon-hole groups for ease of smearing them, it may seem a small difference but a reasonable person will see the difference for what it is.  

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Black Red Devil
29 minutes ago, and then said:

Actually, it isn't that at all.  It is a belief that the descendants of Israel have an everlasting RIGHT to live in the land of their ancestors, promised irrevocably to them by the same God we worship.  Christian Evangelicals believe that Jews will eventually recognize Christ as their Messiah but the two are not mutually dependent.  To those who want to pigeon-hole groups for ease of smearing them, it may seem a small difference but a reasonable person will see the difference for what it is.  

Jews recognising Christ as the Messiah means believing his stories written in the New Testament.  Not much difference between the two after that anymore.

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38 minutes ago, Black Red Devil said:

Not much difference between the two after that anymore.

You speak of the future, I of the present and in the present what I've said is the more accurate.  That's my only point.  Until they believe, Christian Zionists and Evangelicals are NOT the in the same category.  If you choose to blend them then that is your doing and does not render them so.

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Helen of Annoy
11 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

 

I’m pretty sure that no Palestinian has ever come close to suffering the way Holocaust survivors had.

 

White. Phosphorus. 

Children burnt with white phosphorus. The more you hide or attempt excusing that, the more I'm disgusted with the politics that stands behind it. 

 

Also, thank god I started reading from the back of your post so I didn't bother with the rest. 

Leave me alone now, I have no desire to talk to you. 

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RavenHawk
6 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Children burnt with white phosphorus. The more you hide or attempt excusing that, the more I'm disgusted with the politics that stands behind it.

You think that there are at least 6 million Palestinian children?  I don’t think so.  WP is very painful but we’re talking about very few in number compared to the misery of millions of Jews being exterminated.  WP's primary purpose is indirect crowd control but if one gets too close to a spent shell, there is a chance of getting burned.  Those that get burned are either from accidental exposure or they are being used to retrieve shell fragments.  On the other hand, it was with malice intent that Jews were exposed to Zyklon-B.  If you want to be disgusted then be disgusted with the Palestinians.  They love martyrdom more than their children.  More Palestinian children get hurt and killed by Hamas Qassam rockets that misfire during launch which is usually on school or hospital grounds.  If you’ve ever fired a bottle rocket, ever-once-in-a-while they go squirrelly and you’re trying to dodge them.

 

Leave me alone now, I have no desire to talk to you. 

Anytime you post something, there will always be a chance that I will respond.  If you don’t like that then you are welcome to leave.  And I will respond any time I damn well feel like it.

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Earl.Of.Trumps
On 10/31/2018 at 6:56 PM, and then said:

Actually, it isn't that at all.  It is a belief that the descendants of Israel have an everlasting RIGHT to live in the land of their ancestors, promised irrevocably to them by the same God we worship.  Christian Evangelicals believe that Jews will eventually recognize Christ as their Messiah but the two are not mutually dependent.  To those who want to pigeon-hole groups for ease of smearing them, it may seem a small difference but a reasonable person will see the difference for what it is.  

Seriously, and then, do you really think that Euro Jews have ancestors from Israel?

The only Jews in the world at the time of the House of Judah's demise were the Sephardi, in Judah, of course.

Jews from Europe have Sephardi blood?? I seriously doubt that. How much? about the amount of Cherokee blood that Sen. Liz Warren has? LOL

 

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2 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Seriously, and then, do you really think that Euro Jews have ancestors from Israel?

The only Jews in the world at the time of the House of Judah's demise were the Sephardi, in Judah, of course.

Jews from Europe have Sephardi blood?? I seriously doubt that. How much? about the amount of Cherokee blood that Sen. Liz Warren has? LOL

 

Yeah, actually, I do.  Why wouldn't they be?  They literally dispersed into nearly every nation around the world.  Are you speaking about them being illegitimate because they are mixed with other bloodlines or something?  Anyway, that's my belief and you're entitled to your own.  When frickkin' WWIII begins because people all over the world decide those 8 million people CANNOT be left in peace and must be hounded off that land, I guess we'll see if the survivors think it was really an important enough cause to die for.

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Earl.Of.Trumps
2 hours ago, and then said:

Yeah, actually, I do.  Why wouldn't they be?  They literally dispersed into nearly every nation around the world.  Are you speaking about them being illegitimate because they are mixed with other bloodlines or something?  Anyway, that's my belief and you're entitled to your own.  When frickkin' WWIII begins because people all over the world decide those 8 million people CANNOT be left in peace and must be hounded off that land, I guess we'll see if the survivors think it was really an important enough cause to die for.

Well, Sephardi Jews are Ethiopian black, Ashkenazi Jews are quite white. So.....

Anyway, And I'm pretty sure the focal  point of German land grabbing had more to do with than Jews. MO.

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6 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Well, Sephardi Jews are Ethiopian black, Ashkenazi Jews are quite white. So.....

Anyway, And I'm pretty sure the focal  point of German land grabbing had more to do with than Jews. MO.

Okay, let's run with your belief.  Post-WWII, Zionism is in full swing.  Jews from Europe and all over the M.E. flock to the newly created state.  Most of the Jews  in all those cases had been dispossessed of their land.  They were "given" a postage-stamp sized piece of land that was mostly barren.  No oil.  No gas. Nothing but their will to succeed and live in peace.  That first generation bled for the land and every generation since has done so.  Can you tell me why a group of supposedly uber-wealthy Jews would want to do that?  The idea that these people do not have an enduring cultural bond to that land is unsupportable.

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Earl.Of.Trumps
7 hours ago, and then said:

Okay, let's run with your belief.  Post-WWII, Zionism is in full swing.  Jews from Europe and all over the M.E. flock to the newly created state.  Most of the Jews  in all those cases had been dispossessed of their land.  They were "given" a postage-stamp sized piece of land that was mostly barren.  No oil.  No gas. Nothing but their will to succeed and live in peace.  That first generation bled for the land and every generation since has done so.  Can you tell me why a group of supposedly uber-wealthy Jews would want to do that?  The idea that these people do not have an enduring cultural bond to that land is unsupportable.

Well, for one, the post WWII Jews being shipped out of England were flocking to Palestine, a land with *inhabitants*. Somebody else's land. You say the land was barren but maybe that is because of how lowly you think of Palestinians. Then,only when enough Euro Jews had arrived to push the indigenous ones out of Palestine, was a there a "newly created state". And you say they want to live in peace??? Didn't look too peaceful to me.

But more to the point. The Euro Jews took the land via some ancestral claim to the land.

I am saying that they had no ancestral claim to the land because their ancestors were not from Ancient Judah, but from Europe.

Two issues: The only land they could claim would be West Bank, the House of Judah. And, their claim of a right to that land would really be based on their praying to God the same way the Judaens did. Hmmm

Very sketchy reasons to kill and steal. not sure God would approve. Christians seem to, but God...? not sure about that!

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third_eye

 

Quote

 

1 Corinthians 13:4-8 New International Version (NIV)

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

 

What Paul needs here is to meet a John ...

~

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1 hour ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Well, for one, the post WWII Jews being shipped out of England were flocking to Palestine, a land with *inhabitants*. Somebody else's land. You say the land was barren but maybe that is because of how lowly you think of Palestinians. Then,only when enough Euro Jews had arrived to push the indigenous ones out of Palestine, was a there a "newly created state". And you say they want to live in peace??? Didn't look too peaceful to me.

But more to the point. The Euro Jews took the land via some ancestral claim to the land.

I am saying that they had no ancestral claim to the land because their ancestors were not from Ancient Judah, but from Europe.

Two issues: The only land they could claim would be West Bank, the House of Judah. And, their claim of a right to that land would really be based on their praying to God the same way the Judaens did. Hmmm

Very sketchy reasons to kill and steal. not sure God would approve. Christians seem to, but God...? not sure about that!

So how far do you think the world should go to restore the land to the most recent inhabitants?  

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RoofGardener
2 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Well, for one, the post WWII Jews being shipped out of England were flocking to Palestine, a land with *inhabitants*. Somebody else's land. You say the land was barren but maybe that is because of how lowly you think of Palestinians. Then,only when enough Euro Jews had arrived to push the indigenous ones out of Palestine, was a there a "newly created state". And you say they want to live in peace??? Didn't look too peaceful to me.

But more to the point. The Euro Jews took the land via some ancestral claim to the land.

I am saying that they had no ancestral claim to the land because their ancestors were not from Ancient Judah, but from Europe.

Two issues: The only land they could claim would be West Bank, the House of Judah. And, their claim of a right to that land would really be based on their praying to God the same way the Judaens did. Hmmm

Very sketchy reasons to kill and steal. not sure God would approve. Christians seem to, but God...? not sure about that!

They didn't occupy "somebody elses land".. they bought it legitimately from the (absentee) landlords, right up to the point where they called Israel into being. At which point the Arab's revolted against them and declared war. At that point, all bets where off. 

During the 19th and early 20th century the entire Arab Palestinian agricultural system was in chaos, with a ridiculous ownership system that massively dis-incentivised development. It was even more inefficient than the later Soviet systems. Significantly more so. Most Arab land workers where in massive debt, and living under a system that was virtually feudal and kept them in poverty. Arabs where fleeing from the land and migrating to the cities for work. (Much of it provided by Jewish industry). It is this that  probably created the stories of a desolate land with no occupants. 

Your comment about ancestral claims is... odd. Four thousand years ago the Jews only existed in Judea and Israel. There WHERE no European Jews. Or Russian Jews. No Europe or Russia, for that matter :D Ergo, every jew has ancestors - albeit incredibly distant - from Israel. 

 

Edited by RoofGardener
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third_eye

Let's take a real trip across Palestine and Modern Israel ... with RIck

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Rick Steves' Europe SS • ES103 Rick Steves' The Holy Land: Israelis and Palestinians Today Rick Steves' Europe Verified • 1.9M views

 

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* HOPE shall prevail *

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RoofGardener

Imagine the hoo-hah in the USA if PBS aired an episode of Sesame Street in which Big Bird read out a poem describing black people as "Barbaric Monkeys". 

Just IMAGINE it. There would be riots in the streets. The senior management of PBS would be sacked immediately. Big Bird would have to spend the next 3 months regularly reading out a retraction, and special episodes would have to be produced praising black people. There would be world criticism.  

Of course, this would never happen.

Unless you work for Palestinian TV (the Palestinian TV station controlled by the Palestinian Authority), in which case the world would be - and indeed IS - silent. 

http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=14951

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