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RoofGardener

No peace in Palestine ?

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RoofGardener
11 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

@RoofGardener   " there WHERE no "Palestinians" in 1946. "

 

Roofgardener, I have it as Palestine is part of the Canaan region. And even Gold Meir was listed as "Palestinian" on her passport because she was from Palestine. Very simple. But "What is in a name?". The residents there should have a right to life regardless of what they are called. If they own title to land, that should be respected by any government that assumes control of the land. Simple, basic human rights.

Did Iraq have the right to take over Kuwait just because they had better weapons? Then who came to the Palestinians' aid, and WHY NOT?

They'll always be human no matter what factions hate them.

 

I'd agree entirely, Earl. My point was merely to debunk the "four maps" graphic, which is clearly demographically incorrect, and appears to be outright propaganda.

As for ".. who came to the Palestinians aid'... well... if you mean Palestinian Arabs, then the answer would be... Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Libya, Morrocco, Yemen, and a couple of others. They all invaded the newly-declared state of Israel in 1948. (and in 1973, the Soviet Union was added to that list). 

Of course, it is a moot point as to whether they really wanted to help the Arab Palestinians, or merely to destroy Israel. It's worth bearing in mind that the territory occupied by the Palestinian Arabs was invaded and annexed in 1948 by Egypt and Jordan. The Palestinian Arabs all became either Egyptian or Jordanian citizens. NOBODY was talking about a Palestinian State back in those days. Or indeed, at any time until the 1980's, when the surrounding Arab states (and the Soviet Union) finally realised that they could not destroy Israel by direct force of arms. 

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Truthseeker007
2 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Ummm.... no. What I have said is - I believe - accurate. It is the maps create a fictional history. Or at least, a fictional historic demographic.

The land was stolen from the natives any way you look at it. And now the natives are being persecuted by the tyrants.

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Black Red Devil
On 11/23/2018 at 3:57 AM, and then said:

You're honest enough in this statement to admit you aren't SURE what is meant by the term Christian Zionism.  Rather than ridicule it from ignorance why not spend a few minutes learning what it actually means?  Or are such things as facts unnecessary when you are stating your opinions?  Believing that Christion Zionists are wrong is perfectly valid but to do so without truly understanding what they believe is intellectually dishonest, or at least lazy.  I'm a Christian who believes that the descendants of Jacob (Israel) have a perpetual promise to possess all the land from the "river of Egypt to the Euphrates".  BUT, I believe that the complete fulfillment of that promise is contingent on their actions before God.  IOW, it will happen when He allows it, not when Israel's leaders demand it.  I do not give them a pass when they brutalize people but I do recognize their human right to self-defense when they and their children are being attacked.  It all reduces to one point in the end.  Is achieving what you perceive as justice for the Palestinians worth a regional or even global war?  If it is then I commend your strength of commitment to your principles.  

What I find amazingly intriguing in your faith is that the average Jews are the ones that mistrust you the most because of your contradicting beliefs despite the fact that millions of dollars were spent by the Christian Zionist foundation to help Jews migrate to Israel from all corners of the world.  Probably most Jews don't even believe in your "Greater Israel from the river of Egypt to the Euphrates promise by God" but you guys do.  What can I say, worship the "chosen people" to your hearts content as far as I'm concerned, I just don't believe stories written ions ago should decide the fate of modern people like you guys do.

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Truthseeker007
2 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Strictly speaking, you are correct. The blog post makes a series of statements without sourcing articles in support of them. 

However, the original map does the same thing :D

Can you dispute the figures given in the blog, or in my post #117 ? :) 

Thanks for the information you presented. I was not aware the maps were not accurate so I thank you for that. It is always good to learn something new.

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aztek

The Haavara Agreement (Hebrew: הסכם העברה Translit.: heskem haavara Translated: "transfer agreement") was an agreement between Nazi Germany and Zionist German Jews signed on 25 August 1933. The agreement was finalized after three months of talks by the Zionist Federation of Germany, the Anglo-Palestine Bank (under the directive of the Jewish Agency) and the economic authorities of Nazi Germany. It was a major factor in making possible the migration of approximately 60,000 German Jews to Palestine in 1933–1939.[1]

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5 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

What can I say, worship the "chosen people" to your hearts content as far as I'm concerned, I just don't believe stories written ions ago should decide the fate of modern people like you guys do.

I assume the "worship" comment is meant to be snarky, excuse me if I'm wrong.  Of course, CZ's don't worship Jews.  We do not think of them as superior to any other human being on the planet or that they are inherently good people just because they are Jewish.  It's nonsense like this that takes away credibility in this discussion.  I don't have any problem with ANYONE who disagrees with my faith and outlook but when people decide to flay it with characterizations that are false then it tells me they are not really aware of what Christian Zionists believe. 

I agree with you that those "stories" shouldn't decide the fate of people.  I don't believe they do, in any material way.  The numbers of CZ's and Evangelicals (that term even makes believers SOUND insane) that believe Israel's descendants have a right to live in their ancient homeland are very few, in the big picture.  The fate of the Jews - and their Muslim neighbors in the region - will be determined by the actions THEY take against each other.  I'd note that to date not a single CZ has blown up a public conveyance or entertainment venue "for the cause".  I'm not trying to be a jerk here, I'm just saying that simply believing that Bible prophecy about the descendants of Israel is not an act of harm against anyone.  

I have no doubt that the great majority of Jews do not find it easy to trust Christians.  Christians were responsible for FAR more dead Jews than Muslims ever have been.  It is one of the great failings of the church and it is a disgrace to the name of Christ.  If your mind is at peace over supporting Palestinians in this struggle, regardless what methods they use, then that is your right.  I choose to support the right of Jews, whether they hate me or not, to live in that land.  I do not support their choice to behave in a hateful way to their neighbors nor do I think they have a right to carelessly slaughter civilians who aren't trying to kill them - can you say the same of the Palestinians?  

No, I don't worship God's "Chosen".  I also don't attach the same meaning to that word that you seem to do.  In fact, I think many Jews today may have developed a kind of arrogance about that title and have skewed its meaning.  I'd also say that when determining who's to blame in such an ancient blood feud, having nothing positive or redeeming to note about one of the parties involved tells me that you can't be a serious scholar of the issue.

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Black Red Devil
5 hours ago, and then said:

I assume the "worship" comment is meant to be snarky, excuse me if I'm wrong.  Of course, CZ's don't worship Jews.  We do not think of them as superior to any other human being on the planet or that they are inherently good people just because they are Jewish.  It's nonsense like this that takes away credibility in this discussion.  I don't have any problem with ANYONE who disagrees with my faith and outlook but when people decide to flay it with characterizations that are false then it tells me they are not really aware of what Christian Zionists believe. 

I agree with you that those "stories" shouldn't decide the fate of people.  I don't believe they do, in any material way.  The numbers of CZ's and Evangelicals (that term even makes believers SOUND insane) that believe Israel's descendants have a right to live in their ancient homeland are very few, in the big picture.  The fate of the Jews - and their Muslim neighbors in the region - will be determined by the actions THEY take against each other.  I'd note that to date not a single CZ has blown up a public conveyance or entertainment venue "for the cause".  I'm not trying to be a jerk here, I'm just saying that simply believing that Bible prophecy about the descendants of Israel is not an act of harm against anyone.  

I have no doubt that the great majority of Jews do not find it easy to trust Christians.  Christians were responsible for FAR more dead Jews than Muslims ever have been.  It is one of the great failings of the church and it is a disgrace to the name of Christ.  If your mind is at peace over supporting Palestinians in this struggle, regardless what methods they use, then that is your right.  I choose to support the right of Jews, whether they hate me or not, to live in that land.  I do not support their choice to behave in a hateful way to their neighbors nor do I think they have a right to carelessly slaughter civilians who aren't trying to kill them - can you say the same of the Palestinians?  

No, I don't worship God's "Chosen".  I also don't attach the same meaning to that word that you seem to do.  In fact, I think many Jews today may have developed a kind of arrogance about that title and have skewed its meaning.  I'd also say that when determining who's to blame in such an ancient blood feud, having nothing positive or redeeming to note about one of the parties involved tells me that you can't be a serious scholar of the issue.

Well that's laughable coming from you.  You've even thrown in your religious beliefs to justify your unbiased positioning.  Look, it might come to your surprise but I don't blindly support anyone, not even the Palestinians.  In fact I don't support what Hamas does and I mistrust Abbas.  The only reason why I get involved in these discussions is because I see something wrong and I have my say, which seems to always attract opposing responses from the pro-Zionist/Conservative/US-Israeli relationship followers. Above all, I've never suggested to be an expert or scholar.

The other reason why I particularly follow what happens in the Middle East and especially between the Arabs and Israel is because it's been a major factor in the rise of pan Arab sentiments which have been the headline of modern day history since WWII.  The west have been interfering and deciding the fate of what happens in the region since the fall of the Ottomans and above all have influenced the rise of puppet dictators and shaken hands with murderous allies and fanatics purely out of interest.  The Ottomans attacked Europe for centuries and in the end got what they deserved but instead of helping the region to prosper and develop after it's demise, similar to what happened to Germans, Italians and Japanese after WWII, we created constant turmoil and the likes of Bin Laden, Al Queda and ISIS are the result (actually many believe they were purposely created by the west).  All these are verifiable facts, not my 'expert' opinion.  How much of this was influenced by Zionist idealism?  Not sure, but looking at it cynically you tend to believe that what's been happening in the ME and NA has been of an advantage to the Jews in Israel and Christians in the west.  Subsequently, commoners like myself can reek the financial rewards and live in a prosperous society and hate anyone from the region that reacts against us, call them terrorists when they kill some of our innocent, make them the enemies of Jews and Christians because of their religious texts, despite the fact like you said, Christians have killed more Jews than Arabs have.

The bottom line and then is that this has nothing to do with what religious scriptures have defined of God's will.  The scriptures have been an excuse and the likes of the Palestinians are just casualties on the road to the bigger picture.

Edited by Black Red Devil
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1 hour ago, Black Red Devil said:

You've even thrown in your religious beliefs to justify your unbiased positioning.

I've never made the claim of being unbiased in this situation.  I support the right of the people of Israel to live in the land.  I say it all the time.  Also, if I seemed to be implying that you were claiming to be an expert, it wasn't my intention.  I WAS calling you out for characterizing me - and Christian Zionism - without really understanding what it is.  As I said, disagreeing with the belief is fine but making statements about those who support it without understanding what it is, IMO, is intellectually lazy at best.  Perhaps the modern Jews who labored to build the state of Israel did use the Bible to justify actions that might have had other, less pure motives.  Human beings - all of us - are like that at times.  I also never said that the Jews had a right to mistreat anyone.  We just differ drastically on what constitutes mistreatment when both sides are dealing death to each other's citizens.  

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Earl.Of.Trumps
On 11/23/2018 at 7:25 PM, and then said:

From my post, 112, 

 "BUT, I believe that the complete fulfillment of that promise is contingent on their actions before God.  IOW, it will happen when He allows it, not when Israel's leaders demand it.  I do not give them a pass when they brutalize people but I do recognize their human right to self-defense when they and their children are being attacked.  It all reduces to one point in the end.  Is achieving what you perceive as justice for the Palestinians worth a regional or even global war?  If it is then I commend your strength of commitment to your principles." 

I will never make apologies for my support of the rights of the descendants of Israel to live in that land.  Ultimately, they will inherit it all but they will not take it by force.  As to the Palestinian cause, I wish them the best in their struggle against a corrupt leadership that doesn't care about THEM at all.  It is horrible what is happening to them and their children.  Only an evil person takes delight in anyone's suffering.  But everything gets reduced to black and white in such arguments.  You're either for the Palestinians or you're wrong and possibly evil.  I refuse to accept that label.  I don't automatically assume that every person who champions the Palestinians because of the media images and stories is an anti-Semite or Jew hater.  They see images of suffering and see a picture of injustice that has been neatly encapsulated for them without context or an accurate citation of history.  That part of the story will never change until Christ Himself returns to cause the question to be settled.  

He is just referring to commonly known information that isn't known - or accepted - by those who have a closed mind on this topic.  What he's saying is absolutely honest.  The references that you make to "occupation" and the ever-popular myth that "settlements" are at the root of all the conflict are dispelled by the mere existence of the PLO.  The Palestine Liberation Organization was created by the Egyptian-born Yassir Arafat in 1964 with the purpose of the

 "liberation of Palestine" through armed struggle, with much of its violence aimed at Israeli civilians" 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Liberation_Organization

The settler movement in Israel came out of the belief that the land was THEIRS by right but even those who reject this surely can't rationally blame the current violence against Jews to that movement since the PLO was formed many years prior to the first settlement's existence.  Again, the bottom line here is that in this dispute there is no room for compromise due to the bloody history of tit for tat atrocities and reprisals.  There IS room for honest disagreement about who is in the right but to effectively demand that the Jewish people living there now must accept a single state where demographics will eventually create a 58th Islamic state or that they must be rooted out and dispersed again is unacceptable, even irrational.  

So, Truthseeker, I'll ask you what I asked @Earl.Of.Trumps, considering that injustice is a reality of life in every part of our world, every day, how far do you think the world is justified in going to achieve what you consider "justice" for this one group of people, the Palestinians?  He didn't answer.  How about you?

Israelis have a right to self defense. What if their needed defense is because they unjustly brutalized people and retaliation ensued? You don't blame immigrant Jews for this? Palestinians never invaded Russia. It was Euro Jews that invaded Palestine. Now, many innocent Palestinians sit miserably in refugee camps because of Euro Jew brutalization of the people and theft of their homes and land.

And you blame the Palestinians for fighting back because it puts Israeli's on defense??? Like Israel has to worry about bottle rockets from Gaza?

The problems that come out of a single state solution does not look good for Jews, of course. They should have thought of that BEFORE their Zionist movement flooded the region. I agree with you that the cause for concern in the ME is high, and now that Israel has detailed Iranian plans for 5 nuclear bombs to be made, the stakes are even higher. Nobody ever properly policed Israel the way other countries are policed by the US and others. So the people are taking the only logical option for them, **protect themselves** and use any means available. Yes, and then, the Palestinians have a right to self defense. And in the longer run, if Israel does not change its ways and there is great harm that comes to Israel, they've only themselves to blame.

The problem with Israeli Euro Jews is they can't stand living with anyone else. They hate everything that is NOT JEW. They even hate the Sephardi Jews. Not a good way to have friendly neighbors. :unsure:

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

And in the longer run, if Israel does not change its ways and there is great harm that comes to Israel, they've only themselves to blame.

Why won't you answer my question?   We'll never agree about the right of Jews to live on that land and that's fine.  My question is, what level of force do you believe is justifiable to use against Israel to achieve "justice" for the Palestinians?  It really is a simple question.

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Black Red Devil
37 minutes ago, and then said:

I've never made the claim of being unbiased in this situation.  I support the right of the people of Israel to live in the land.  I say it all the time.  Also, if I seemed to be implying that you were claiming to be an expert, it wasn't my intention.  I WAS calling you out for characterizing me - and Christian Zionism - without really understanding what it is.  As I said, disagreeing with the belief is fine but making statements about those who support it without understanding what it is, IMO, is intellectually lazy at best.  Perhaps the modern Jews who labored to build the state of Israel did use the Bible to justify actions that might have had other, less pure motives.  Human beings - all of us - are like that at times.  I also never said that the Jews had a right to mistreat anyone.  We just differ drastically on what constitutes mistreatment when both sides are dealing death to each other's citizens.  

I know that, in fact the contrary is true.  My statement you quoted was meant to be sarcastic (probably didn't make it clear enough) intended to mean you can't be unbiased with your religious beliefs.  Of course I'll never grasp the concept of what a CZ believes in as much as you do but the Jewish Library seems to match a lot of what you preach.  Now if you believe that Jews must embrace the second coming of Christ (when you want it to happen is beside the point) after they gave him the flick the first time, isn't that like expecting them to believe in Christianity?  If so, what did I say that was so inaccurate?

I'll give you credit for being up front with your beliefs but you do understand nobody forces you to disclose them and you expose yourself to judgements, as long as they're not offensive.

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third_eye

Sweeping A Christian Tradition under Islamic Rugs ...

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Quote

 

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Christianity and antisemitism deals with the hostility of Christian Churches, Christian groups, and by Christians in general to Judaism and the Jewish people. Christian rhetoric and antipathy towards Jews developed in the early years .... Some Christians continued to adhere to aspects of Jewish law, but they were few in ...
 
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The Earliest Christians. The claim of Jesus' followers that their Master was the sole authentic interpreter of Mosaic Law was not unusual. What set his followers ...
 
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They were, nonetheless, subject to laws created and enforced by Christians. ... Persecution of Jewish communities began with the massacres in the Rhineland ...
 
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Marriages between Christians and Jews became capital offences. In later centuries the emperors became more strongly Christian, and the laws concerning ...
 
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Part II: Christian Persecution of Jews, 19. Conclusion, 84. Index of Abbreviations, 88. References, 89. Select Bibliographies, 95. Index of Theodosian Code Laws ...
Part I: Jewish Persecution of Christians‎: ‎5
General Index‎: ‎99
Part II: Christian Persecution of Jews‎: ‎19
Index of Canons I‎: ‎98
 
~

 

 
Edited by third_eye
wonky formating

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Earl.Of.Trumps
1 hour ago, and then said:

Why won't you answer my question?   We'll never agree about the right of Jews to live on that land and that's fine.  My question is, what level of force do you believe is justifiable to use against Israel to achieve "justice" for the Palestinians?  It really is a simple question.

 

Well, #1, I believe the Jews have a right to live on the land. but they do not  have the right to push others OFF the land, especially the people that were there before them.

How's this for an answer for what type of force - "whatever works". The Mullahs and others might have ideas about objectives and what works but I sure don't know what they are. I know many want Israel destroyed because of the long long history of oppression Israel has meted out. Me...? I just want the Palestinians to be able to go home to a safe and just society. But personally, I don't think that'll ever happen as long as Israel is viable. And that is where the rub is

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third_eye
6 minutes ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

I just want the Palestinians to be able to go home to a safe and just society. But personally, I don't think that'll ever happen as long as Israel is viable. And that is where the rub is

The Key to the properties is still held by the hands of the Palestinians ...

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Nov 23, 2007 - The portrait of Hussein Saleh al-Me'ari holding a slim iron key and the ... paint in a tiny room at the Ain al-Hilweh Palestinian refugee camp in Lebanon. ... Still Salah holds out hope that four generations of yearning to return to ...

 

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May 14, 2016 - Matar described Palestinians as people who always lived and will always live on hope. Asked whether his family still has the key, Matar ...

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The Palestinian right of return is the political position or principle that Palestinian refugees, both ... Such keys and the Handala are common Palestinian symbols of support for the right of return. ..... in the minds of the refugees the fear that to accept settlement on them will be tantamount to giving up the hope of repatriation.".
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Jun 14, 2018 - Keys must always be the symbol of the Palestinian “Nakba” – the ... that his little museum and its keys are a symbol of regret rather than hope.

 

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While the tradition is still respected by the Muslims ...
 

Quote

 

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Keys to Holy Sepulchre
He dates the arrangement back to the time of Saladin, the Muslim conqueror who seized the holy city from the Crusaders in 1187. “Honestly, it's a great honor for a Muslim to hold the key to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, which is the most important church in Christendom,” Joudeh, 53, said.Nov 30, 2017

 

~

 

 

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RoofGardener
7 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Israelis have a right to self defense. What if their needed defense is because they unjustly brutalized people and retaliation ensued? You don't blame immigrant Jews for this? Palestinians never invaded Russia. It was Euro Jews that invaded Palestine. Now, many innocent Palestinians sit miserably in refugee camps because of Euro Jew brutalization of the people and theft of their homes and land.

I take your point about brutalization and retaliation. However, can you name ANY civil war that occurred without violence ? 

 

You raise an interesting point about palestinians in refugee camps. There have been many dozens of examples around the world since 1948 of where civil strife has created vast numbers of refugees. All of these where resettled, usually with the assistance of the UNHCR, and various other agencies, including direct assistance from European nations and the USA. The refugee camps that came into existence due to these refugees never lasted more than a few years. 

The "Palestinian" refugee camps, on the other hand, have lasted for over 50 years. And here's the weird thing... about 20 of those camps are in the Palestinian Territories . So Palestinians are in 'refugee' camps WITHIN the State of Palestine.. within their own nation.

Why ? The only reason I can think of is that those palestinians are being DELIBERATELY held in the camps, and refused permission to simply integrate into Palestinian society, simply in order to keep a festering sore running.  

In regards "Euro Jews".. it's worth recalling that about 50% of the modern population of Israel are Jewish refugees - and their descendants - that where evicted en-masse from the Muslim nations of North Africa, (Libya, Tunisia, Egypt etc) and from middle-eastern countries like Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi etc. This happened back in around 1950-ish ? There where a shade under 1 million such refugees... not ALL of whom went to Israel. Are THEY in refugee camps ? 

7 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

....The problems that come out of a single state solution does not look good for Jews, of course. They should have thought of that BEFORE their Zionist movement flooded the region....

Again, I can only re-iterate the Jewish Refugee issue from the surrounding muslim countries. :) 

7 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Israelis have a right to self defense. What if their needed defense is because they unjustly brutalized people and retaliation ensued? You don't blame immigrant Jews for this? Palestinians never invaded Russia. It was Euro Jews that invaded Palestine. Now, many innocent Palestinians sit miserably in refugee camps because of Euro Jew brutalization of the people and theft of their homes and land.

And you blame the Palestinians for fighting back because it puts Israeli's on defense??? Like Israel has to worry about bottle rockets from Gaza?

The problems that come out of a single state solution does not look good for Jews, of course. They should have thought of that BEFORE their Zionist movement flooded the region. I agree with you that the cause for concern in the ME is high, and now that Israel has detailed Iranian plans for 5 nuclear bombs to be made, the stakes are even higher. Nobody ever properly policed Israel the way other countries are policed by the US and others. So the people are taking the only logical option for them, **protect themselves** and use any means available. Yes, and then, the Palestinians have a right to self defense. And in the longer run, if Israel does not change its ways and there is great harm that comes to Israel, they've only themselves to blame.

I think that the issue is really that the "Palestinians" don't WANT peaceful co-existence. Or rather... their leaders (the PLO) don't. The 1992 Oslo Accords where a fantastic opportunity to create a viable Palestinian Nation with secure borders and a thriving economy, but Yasser Arafat walked away from them. Indeed, he dishonored them from day 1 of the negotiations. 

In my opinion, it all comes down to the desire to destroy Israel and reconquer the territories "from the river to the sea". This is politically embodied in the "right to return". The PLO - who are the recognised representatives of the Palestinian people, simply do not WANT co-existence. They want the Jews GONE !

It's worth noting that the letters "PLO" do NOT stand for the "PALESTINIAN Liberation Organisation", as many people assume. 

They stand for the PALESTINE Liberation Organisation. 

7 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

...The problem with Israeli Euro Jews is they can't stand living with anyone else. They hate everything that is NOT JEW. They even hate the Sephardi Jews. Not a good way to have friendly neighbors. :unsure: .... 

Oh surely not ? That is an outrageous claim. Can you substantiate it ? :o 

Edited by RoofGardener

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Earl.Of.Trumps
9 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

I take your point about brutalization and retaliation. However, can you name ANY civil war that occurred without violence ? 

 

You raise an interesting point about palestinians in refugee camps. There have been many dozens of examples around the world since 1948 of where civil strife has created vast numbers of refugees. All of these where resettled, usually with the assistance of the UNHCR, and various other agencies, including direct assistance from European nations and the USA. The refugee camps that came into existence due to these refugees never lasted more than a few years. 

The "Palestinian" refugee camps, on the other hand, have lasted for over 50 years. And here's the weird thing... about 20 of those camps are in the Palestinian Territories . So Palestinians are in 'refugee' camps WITHIN the State of Palestine.. within their own nation.

Why ? The only reason I can think of is that those palestinians are being DELIBERATELY held in the camps, and refused permission to simply integrate into Palestinian society, simply in order to keep a festering sore running.  

In regards "Euro Jews".. it's worth recalling that about 50% of the modern population of Israel are Jewish refugees - and their descendants - that where evicted en-masse from the Muslim nations of North Africa, (Libya, Tunisia, Egypt etc) and from middle-eastern countries like Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi etc. This happened back in around 1950-ish ? There where a shade under 1 million such refugees... not ALL of whom went to Israel. Are THEY in refugee camps ? 

Again, I can only re-iterate the Jewish Refugee issue from the surrounding muslim countries. :) 

I think that the issue is really that the "Palestinians" don't WANT peaceful co-existence. Or rather... their leaders (the PLO) don't. The 1992 Oslo Accords where a fantastic opportunity to create a viable Palestinian Nation with secure borders and a thriving economy, but Yasser Arafat walked away from them. Indeed, he dishonored them from day 1 of the negotiations. 

In my opinion, it all comes down to the desire to destroy Israel and reconquer the territories "from the river to the sea". This is politically embodied in the "right to return". The PLO - who are the recognised representatives of the Palestinian people, simply do not WANT co-existence. They want the Jews GONE !

It's worth noting that the letters "PLO" do NOT stand for the "PALESTINIAN Liberation Organisation", as many people assume. 

They stand for the PALESTINE Liberation Organisation. 

Oh surely not ? That is an outrageous claim. Can you substantiate it ? :o 

I) All civil wars are brutal, no doubt. America lost more lives in their own Civil War than in the War of 1812, the Spanish American War, WWI, WWII, Korea, and Vietnam *combined*. But what needs to be examined is causality. In America's case, the Civil War was to end slavery. And Israel's case...? to rid the soil of those tar tar Muslims and to get free instant housing. The good guys don't always win.

II)  Your observation of Palestinians being held in refugee camps within Israeli borders I'm in agreement with. What Palestinian wouldn't want to get out of the camp and go back home? 'Taint gonna happen. And it is a festering sore, yes.

III)   the 1 million Jewish refugees from other ME countries. Are they in refugee camps? certainly not in Israel or maybe anywhere. But it is fair to say that not all evicted Palestinians remained in the ME, too. Some came to America.

IV) And your point about PLO (and Pals in general, as well as neighbor countries) want the Jews gone. *Of course* you are correct. Time heals all wounds. Not in this case, the wound is festering all the time, and not just to Palestinians but the neighbor countries who have to support the many refugees they were forced to take in. So every day that goes by, the clock is reset. 50 years...? I'm sure 50 years after the oozing stops, wounds will be healed people will be more tolerant.

V) My outrageous claim. I apologize, yes, it was out of hand. Caveat, Roof... there is a reason why some euro Jews refer to non-Jews as "Goy".

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16 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

 

Well, #1, I believe the Jews have a right to live on the land. but they do not  have the right to push others OFF the land, especially the people that were there before them.

How's this for an answer for what type of force - "whatever works". The Mullahs and others might have ideas about objectives and what works but I sure don't know what they are. I know many want Israel destroyed because of the long long history of oppression Israel has meted out. Me...? I just want the Palestinians to be able to go home to a safe and just society. But personally, I don't think that'll ever happen as long as Israel is viable. And that is where the rub is

Thanks for the honesty.  The Palestinians have made it quite clear what their concept will be for "whatever works".  The area of the Golan has recently been found to be worth an incredible amount of $.  Oil and gas.  Russia will not want the competition and the Arabs just want the Jews dead, however it can be accomplished.  A match made in hell.  So Israel's "time of trouble" IS coming.  If you live through it, I wonder if you'll still think it was worth it just to get rid of the Jews and give Palestinians their "justice"?  

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RoofGardener
13 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

II)  Your observation of Palestinians being held in refugee camps within Israeli borders I'm in agreement with. What Palestinian wouldn't want to get out of the camp and go back home? 'Taint gonna happen. And it is a festering sore, yes.

Just a quick note; the refugee camps are NOT in Israel's borders. They are in the Palestinian State. Palestinians are holding Palestinians in a refugee camp inside "Palestine". I ASSUME they do this to Palestinians who's parents (or grandparents) fled "Israel" back in 1948 and 1967. They WANT these people to fester in order to highlight their "right of return". They are being used as pawns in a sick political game. 

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Black Red Devil
1 hour ago, RoofGardener said:

Just a quick note; the refugee camps are NOT in Israel's borders. They are in the Palestinian State. Palestinians are holding Palestinians in a refugee camp inside "Palestine". I ASSUME they do this to Palestinians who's parents (or grandparents) fled "Israel" back in 1948 and 1967. They WANT these people to fester in order to highlight their "right of return". They are being used as pawns in a sick political game. 

Palestine?  Like a sovereign state with controlled borders, free movement of goods and commerce with other states and movement of people?  How ironic that these refugee camps are in 'Palestine' but Israel doesn't recognise a Palestinian State, controls Gaza and occupies the West Bank. 

Talk about hypocrisy to the extreme!

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RoofGardener
23 minutes ago, Black Red Devil said:

Palestine?  Like a sovereign state with controlled borders, free movement of goods and commerce with other states and movement of people?  How ironic that these refugee camps are in 'Palestine' but Israel doesn't recognise a Palestinian State, controls Gaza and occupies the West Bank. 

Talk about hypocrisy to the extreme!

What a confused post ! What has that got to do with the reality of Palestinians being held in refugee camps in the Palestinian Territories ? Why are they in refugee camps, rather than integrating with Palestinian civic society ? Why are they being held in isolation from their fellow Palestinians ? 

Edited by RoofGardener
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Black Red Devil
37 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

What a confused post ! What has that got to do with the reality of Palestinians being held in refugee camps in the Palestinian Territories ? Why are they in refugee camps, rather than integrating with Palestinian civic society ? Why are they being held in isolation from their fellow Palestinians ? 

I can understand why you're confused which probably explains a lot of your biased views on this subject.  Please advise what are these Palestinian territories which a recognised Palestinian Govt has full sovereignty over and is not subject to occupation and control by a foreign state?  1) If these territories are under occupation and controlled by Israel how can you palm the blame off to the Palestinian Govt for what happens within the territory when they have no control over them?  2) If these territories are not occupied and controlled by Israel then you would be correct but then I would like you to explain why the Govt of Israel is placing hundreds of thousands of Israeli settlers on these lands which belong to the Palestinians or why they blockade and control the movement of goods and people?

 

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third_eye

Its much like Billy Crystal playing Muhammad Ali converting to Judaism and planning on doing Jewish boxing ...

~

Billy Crystal as Muhammad Ali on the Tonight Show July 11 1977 - YouTube

 

 

~

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RoofGardener
10 minutes ago, Black Red Devil said:

I can understand why you're confused which probably explains a lot of your biased views on this subject.  Please advise what are these Palestinian territories which a recognised Palestinian Govt has full sovereignty over and is not subject to occupation and control by a foreign state?  1) If these territories are under occupation and controlled by Israel how can you palm the blame off to the Palestinian Govt for what happens within the territory when they have no control over them?  2) If these territories are not occupied and controlled by Israel then you would be correct but then I would like you to explain why the Govt of Israel is placing hundreds of thousands of Israeli settlers on these lands which belong to the Palestinians or why they blockade and control the movement of goods and people?

 

Somebody is confused.. but it isn't me :D 

The Palestinians control Area C ... Israel still has military control over areas A and B. 

Are you REALLY suggesting that the Israeli's mandate that SOME Palestinians should live in Refugee camps, in ANY of those areas ? That is ridiculous. The refugee camps are a Palestinian creation - along with UNRWA. Israel has NOTHING to do with them. 

As for the Israeli settlements in the West Bank..... they are wrong. Simple as. However, this all comes down to the Palestinian betrayal of the Oslo Accords. Had the PLO not reneged on the agreements from day 1, then they would - by around 2004 - have had exclusive control of the "Area C" territory. ( around 60% of the West Bank). But they did renege, and Israel presumably saw no reason to restrain their settlement expansions as a result.

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and then
3 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

why they blockade and control the movement of goods and people?

When Sharon initially used force to remove 8500 settlers from Gaza the rocket-fire never even paused.  The busses continued to be blown up and the choice was to absolutely Roman on them or to find another way to protect Israeli citizens.  They bottled up the flow and began building a barrier.  The bombings stopped.  THAT is the true answer.  I think it's about time for a Palestinian "Diaspora" from the region.  If these people had real leaders they could benefit from the world's largesse and have a state that would make all of them healthy, happy and even prosperous but they have lived on hate for so long they seem incapable of doing anything else.  The misery is mostly self-inflicted.   So be it.

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third_eye

The Romans taught thee well ... do unto others as thou wouldst be done unto thee ...

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[00.21:10]

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Quote

 

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Jump to Jewish anti-Zionism - Jewish anti-Zionism is as old as Zionism itself, and enjoyed widespread support in the Jewish community until ...
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Jews Against Zionism: The American Council for Judaism, 1942-1948 is a 1990 book by Thomas A. Kolsky, a professor of history and political science at ...
 
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Neturei Karta is an international organization of Orthodox Jews dedicated to the propagation and clarification of Torah Judaism.
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Apr 29, 2016 - Zionists – those who believe Israel should be a Jewish homeland - say it is us vs. them: the victimised Jews against the murderous Arabs.
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Sep 16, 2018 - ... the Har HaBayis (Temple Mount), adding his name to a long list of rabbis, both Zionist and Anti-Zionist, who have stated in no uncertain terms ...

 

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Apr 8, 2018 - For nearly as long as Palestinians have resisted their displacement, small groups of Jews have joined them. Ran Greenstein's 'Zionism and Its ...
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The anti-Zionist world-view of the ultra-Orthodox groups Neturei Karta and Satmar Hasidism perceives Zionism and the establishment of the State of Israel as an ...
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Among Israeli Jews, there are three primary anti-Zionist critiques: that of religious Jews; that of the political left; and that of humanists like Dr. Magnes. Although ...
~

 

 

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