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Piney

Glenn Beck and Hebrews in North America

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papageorge1
1 minute ago, jaylemurph said:

Just. Show. Us. Proof.

You don't know academia, so I don't know why you keep opining about what you think it is. I challenge you to actually provide evidence upholding your claim, because as of now, all you have is flapping lips and a mind devoid of actual fact.

(We all know that, at this point, if you had even a scintilla of proof, you'd have ponied up long ago. Try to keep a scrap of dignity and just leave this thread.)

--Jaylemurph

You might see how your attitude above so supports my post's description of the academic attitude. 

You might keep forgetting I am not a maverick archeologist myself, but an observer of the scene. (What claim am I supposed to be upholding (that I am supposed to provide PROOF for??)

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jaylemurph
Just now, papageorge1 said:

You might see how your attitude above so supports my post's description of the academic attitude. 

You might keep forgetting I am not a maverick archeologist myself, but an observer of the scene. (What claim am I supposed to be upholding (that I am supposed to provide PROOF for??)

That your claims about academia merit serious consideration; that old academics are resentful of young ones and of new ideas; of some sort of historical academic conspiracy to maintain old ideas; that you have an informed, worthwhile opinion to provide on the topic despite no direct, relevant knowledge of that topic.

Any of that. All of that.

I can observe an American football game, but that doesn't mean I have any worthwhile to say about it. You're the one making claims, why shouldn't you pony up with some relevant support? What possible reason -- other than a total, utter inability to do so -- would you have, having made these claims, not make any effort to defend your claims? This isn't the Spirituality fora, where every idea is as  good as another. Here, we deal with facts and arguments.

And you've provided nothing of either, but you have made insulting claims about the status of my profession. You should either kindly take prove your claims or cease making them.

--Jaylemurph

 

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papageorge1
2 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

That your claims about academia merit serious consideration; that old academics are resentful of young ones and of new ideas; of some sort of historical academic conspiracy to maintain old ideas; that you have an informed, worthwhile opinion to provide on the topic despite no direct, relevant knowledge of that topic.

 

I was supposed to prove your arrogance to you? So, that's what you meant?

This is becoming unhinged, let's end this for now.

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jaylemurph
4 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

I was supposed to prove your arrogance to you? So, that's what you meant?

This is becoming unhinged, let's end this for now.

Let's call this what it is:

You make outrageous claims, and with no ability to provide anything close to proof or support, insulting to boot, then choose to run away and avoid the subject.

If this is anything else, I call on the other posters to correct me.

--Jaylemurph

Edited by jaylemurph
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kmt_sesh
41 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

Nothing there even approaches what I call impossible.

Two minutes of internet searching found this: The Saga of Ancient Hebrew Explorers  not the first I have heard of such speculation and I am sure the archeological conservatives will call these people crackpots.

I am not vouching for this but it is just to show ideas and possibilities may have been out there.

Stepping back, my overall position is that ancient history has so poorly been preserved that I consider this possible (along with so many other things).

What background and experience do you have in historical studies, papa? And by that I mean legitimate research conducted by trained and experienced historians—not the likes of the wackadoo bull flop in your link. I've spent more than thirty years studying ancient Middle Eastern cultures. I know the research. I am not going to and will never turn to half-baked websites for my own studies, so have you tried the professional literature to learn real-world facts about the ancient Hebrew culture?

You have a proven, fully established track record of championing and/or supporting most any "mystery" you come across, no matter how ridiculous it is. That is a fact. And I can tell you with confidence, this latest falderal you're championing is, no, not possible.

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Sir Wearer of Hats
3 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

You might see how your attitude above so supports my post's description of the academic attitude. 

You might keep forgetting I am not a maverick archeologist myself, but an observer of the scene. (What claim am I supposed to be upholding (that I am supposed to provide PROOF for??)

Yes, those terrible people asking for evidence and then saying things like “that which is asserted withuot evidence can be rejected withuot evidence”. 

Tut tut and indeed tut. 

They should be like PapaG and believe any old guff as long as it soubds convincing keep an open mind.

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Piney
5 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

Two minutes of internet searching found this: The Saga of Ancient Hebrew Explorers  not the first I have heard of such speculation and I am sure the archeological conservatives will call these people crackpots.

 

Of course they are crackpots.  "Hope of Israel" is a cult.  Read some of their other articles. :yes:

http://www.hope-of-israel.org/  

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Windowpane
7 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

The Hebrews were not even a seafaring people. Why would a group of them not only venture out onto the sea, but to the other side of the world and to lands no one in the Old World even know existed? 

 

"Because the social aspects of seafaring and transport, the relationship different peoples had with the sea, and the whole notion of ‘seascapes’ are seldom discussed in the literature of the eastern Mediterranean Bronze Age, this volume devotes significant attention to such factors, including: mobility, connectivity, the length and purpose as well as the risk of the journey, the knowledge and experience of navigation and travel, ‘working’ the sea, the impact of distance and access to the exotic upon peoples’ identities and ideologies, and much more."

(Seafaring and Seafarers in the Bronze Age Eastern Mediterranean)

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Harte

Just waiting for someone to use the word "flapdoodle."

Ain't seen it yet.

Harte

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Sir Wearer of Hats
3 minutes ago, Harte said:

Just waiting for someone to use the word "flapdoodle."

Ain't seen it yet.

Harte

What’s that up in the Sky? 

why, it looks like a fedora.....

ITS THE SIR WEARER OF HATS SIGNAL!!

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Kenemet
20 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

I would still want to know if it was indeed found in such and such a place instead of just taking the attitude that it has to be a fraud.  I understand it could be a fraud but I want more certainty than 'it just can't be because it doesn't belong in our current paradigm of America's past'. In fact I do not even know what Jim Vieira's position is on this particular artefact 

The reason it's a fraud is because the 10 Commandments are never found in context with any Jewish artifact.  It's like someone bounding up with a box containing the Hindu symbol "Om" and telling you that it was found in Jesus' tomb and has instructions for tantric yoga.

Where it was found makes no difference unless you're tracing the origin of the hoax... and it's one of those things found by one person when they were unobserved by other people. 

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danydandan
32 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

The reason it's a fraud is because the 10 Commandments are never found in context with any Jewish artifact.  It's like someone bounding up with a box containing the Hindu symbol "Om" and telling you that it was found in Jesus' tomb and has instructions for tantric yoga.

Where it was found makes no difference unless you're tracing the origin of the hoax... and it's one of those things found by one person when they were unobserved by other people. 

Do you ever think your words are falling on deaf ears?

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papageorge1
10 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Yes, those terrible people asking for evidence and then saying things like “that which is asserted withuot evidence can be rejected withuot evidence”. 

Right, like evidence is binary yes/no thing? I see all the facts and possible interpretations as pieces of a jigsaw puzzle we are trying to put together without knowing what the final picture looks like. That is the better description of what is going on. There are roles for conservative and maverick theories at this point. Ancient history did not document itself well.

 

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danydandan
1 minute ago, papageorge1 said:

Right, like evidence is binary yes/no thing?

Yes it is a yes or no thing actually. Well in physics it is anyways so I assume it is in everything else.

Unless your talking about subjective evidence?

2 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

I see all the facts

Can you elaborate what facts you see here?

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papageorge1
43 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

The reason it's a fraud is because the 10 Commandments are never found in context with any Jewish artifact.  It's like someone bounding up with a box containing the Hindu symbol "Om" and telling you that it was found in Jesus' tomb and has instructions for tantric yoga.

Where it was found makes no difference unless you're tracing the origin of the hoax... and it's one of those things found by one person when they were unobserved by other people. 

What you are saying may be right. I am not an expert on that subject. That is why I wanted to hear the final thoughts of someone I respect like Jim Vieira. Quality of sources mean so much in controversial fields.

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danydandan
5 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

What you are saying may be right. I am not an expert on that subject. That is why I wanted to hear the final thoughts of someone I respect like Jim Vieira. Quality of sources mean so much in controversial fields.

Jim Vieira has as much credentials as I do on this topic, which is none.

Double Rows of Teeth. Lol.

The man is a lunatic.

Edited by danydandan
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papageorge1
2 minutes ago, danydandan said:

Jim Vieira has as much credentials as I do on this topic, which is none.

There is a lot of snobbery and arrogance also I believe. Archeology is not as abstract as theoretical physics and is open to those that wish to educate themselves. I respect and consider what people like Jim say myself. 

And I  haven't even found out yet what his thoughts are on this particular find.

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papageorge1
11 minutes ago, danydandan said:

Jim Vieira has as much credentials as I do on this topic, which is none.

Double Rows of Teeth. Lol.

The man is a lunatic.

Are you putting yourself out there as personally qualified to judge? I would listen to any full presentation of the situation by Jim myself before forming my thoughts. 

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danydandan
8 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

There is a lot of snobbery and arrogance also I believe. Archeology is not as abstract as theoretical physics and is open to those that wish to educate themselves. I respect and consider what people like Jim say myself. 

And I  haven't even found out yet what his thoughts are on this particular find.

I don't know about that, I certainly agree that you don't need to hold a degree or a PhD to hold an informed opinion.

Obviously theoretical physics is abstract, so are Jim's conclusions. Everything is open to anyone willing to learn.

However can I ask if you actually believe everything he says? What if anything fo you disagree with him on?

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danydandan
8 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

Are you putting yourself out there as personally qualified to judge? I would listen to any full presentation of the situation by Jim myself before forming my thoughts. 

I'm a doctor.

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Sir Wearer of Hats
1 hour ago, papageorge1 said:

Are you putting yourself out there as personally qualified to judge? I would listen to any full presentation of the situation by Jim myself before forming my thoughts. 

I know arrant flapdoodle and codswollop when I see it. 

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Harte

And... there it is!

Harte

Edited by Harte
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Swede
21 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

Good grief, when I see CSICOP, Skeptics Dictionary or Guerilla Skeptics on Wikipedia, I often don't bother to read it, no. I don't have much respect for the sources. Although I will state that I am familiar with and have read more skeptical literature than about any skeptic here has read  proponents' literature on our Unexplained Mysteries subject.

Actually ancient Hebrews in the Americas is not an important topic with me and my involvement was to say that if Jim Vieira has looked into this artefact then this thing is bigger than Glen Beck and I would want to hear what Jim has to say. Now, on here, LOL, things predictably snowball into me being characterized as the number 1 proponent of ancient Hebrews in America:rofl: And that is because real proponents of some of these things don't even bother with the immaturity of this forum's decorum.

In this, you do yourself a great disservice. CSICOP is merely the vehicle for the article, which was submitted by a team of well experienced and respected archaeologists/historians, with the two lead authors being particularly noteworthy. That nasty credible data again.

On these pages, you have consistently made it quite apparent that you wish to avoid credible research, as such information is upsetting to your fantasies. Instead, you prefer to opt for unqualified sources and such fancies as channeling. While you profess to desiring to have a "broad view", your actions belie this position. If you are intentionally unaware of the voluminous amount of legitimate research, how can you profess to be interested in the larger picture? The dichotomy is palpable.

.

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Swede
4 hours ago, danydandan said:

Jim Vieira has as much credentials as I do on this topic, which is none.

Double Rows of Teeth. Lol.

The man is a lunatic.

Hi Dany,

Vieira's primary pursuit is the long discounted "Race of Giants" rubbish. While not readily visible, there would appear to be religious undertones involved.

Andy White has compiled a few bits that you and the other readers may find amusing. The video where he visits White's class does, as White puts it, speak for itself. Only about 3 minutes long. Hilarious in its utter lack of substance.

As to the teeth, also brief White's analysis of such:

https://www.andytheargumentativearchaeologist.com/jim-vieira.html

As a last note, it would appear that the reason that Vieira has not addressed the previously discussed removed "presentation" is that he contends that this removal was part of a grand conspiracy to "hide" his "breakthroughs". Typical fringe response. Cannot have those pesky facts getting in the way.

Edit: Typo

Edited by Swede
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Piney
3 hours ago, danydandan said:

I'm a doctor.

Perhaps you can help me with a stabbing pain right between my eyes..:blink:

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