Giza: astral vs geographical theories

[kmt_sesh]

7 minutes ago, Spiros said:

...

It thus seems that the Egyptian and Hellenic civilizations and the erection of the pyramids to model mountains in Greece and Egypt is rooted from people that lived in Atlantis - Morocco.

...

 

You really don't get it, do you? There were no Greeks, per se, during the Egyptian pyramid age. The Egyptians did not go there so early in history. There was no reason to.

And there is no such thing as Atlantis. This is becoming increasingly silly.

[Jon101]

I was triggered by the above mention of the Hellenic civilisations.

 

I once knew a beautiful Nurse called Helen.  Well, I say 'knew', but I didn't know her very well at all, due to a terriible occurrence on our first date.

I had escorted her to a rather divine little Bistro in Cocking, where the evening progressed swimmingly.  There was vino and amour was in the air, so, naturellement,I chanced my arm and asked her back to my place and astonishingly, she accepted.

I gallantly draped my jacket over her bare shoulders, lest the cool night air have the privilege of kissing her skin before I did, and we left the restaurant on the short walk to my pied a terre in mill lane.

As we strolled, I was seized by an uncontrollable urge to pass some of the previously consumed wine, and accordingly I perused my surroundings and bid my date await my return.  She laughingly agreed, so I crossed the lane and vaulted the low wall, behind which I intended to divest a considerable quantity of urine and also conceal the considerable engorgement my date was causing with her beauty.

Alas, I neglected an initial investigation, and as a result fell fifteen feet into an open sewer, breaking both my legs on a conveniently positioned shopping trolley.  Both the urine and the considerable engorgement left, pursued by alarums.

Unfortunately, so did my date, convulsed with laughter and with my jacket containing my wallet.  She shouted that she would phone for an ambulance, and did, a saving grace I feel.

 

[cormac mac airt]

2 hours ago, Spiros said:

According to www.eupedia.com the Y-chromosome DNA of modern Moroccans is 83% E. 

In Neolithic Central and Southern Greece the E1b1b haplogroup is found in 40% of the population(Sesklo/Dimene/Phragthi/Lerna).

wiki:

 

E-V13 is the European haplogroup found in Neolithic Greece(40%). 
E-V12* is the Egyptian haplogroup(Southern Egyptians: 74.5%) which is a subclass of M78.

It thus seems that the Egyptian and Hellenic civilizations and the erection of the pyramids to model mountains in Greece and Egypt is rooted from people that lived in Atlantis - Morocco.

wiki:

 

 

E-V13 which is attributed above to Greece originates circa 8100 BP/6100 BC while E-V12 which is attributed to Egypt originates EARLIER circa 11,900 BP/9900 BC. 

The line of genetic descendancy for E-V13 (Greece per above) in reverse order is:  E-V13 < E-L618 < E-Z1919 < E-M78 < E-L539 < E-M35 < E-M215 < E-P177 < E-P147 < E (the parent haplogroup)

The line of genetic descendancy for E-V12 (Egypt per above) in reverse order is:  E-V12 < E-Z1902 < E-M78 < E-L539 < E-M35 < E-M215 < E-P177 < E-P147 < E (the parent haplogroup)

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E/

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_tnKfewXqxTCe0zFuJRm8f9Ohkv8RwCImkgRC3s-pnM/edit#gid=1529730372

Genetically speaking Morocco as Atlantis is irrelevant to the falsely assumed direct relationship between E-V12 and E-V13 from the previous post. 

cormac

[kmt_sesh]

6 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

E-V13 which is attributed above to Greece originates circa 8100 BP/6100 BC while E-V12 which is attributed to Egypt originates EARLIER circa 11,900 BP/9900 BC. 

The line of genetic descendancy for E-V13 (Greece per above) in reverse order is:  E-V13 < E-L618 < E-Z1919 < E-M78 < E-L539 < E-M35 < E-M215 < E-P177 < E-P147 < E (the parent haplogroup)

The line of genetic descendancy for E-V12 (Egypt per above) in reverse order is:  E-V12 < E-Z1902 < E-M78 < E-L539 < E-M35 < E-M215 < E-P177 < E-P147 < E (the parent haplogroup)

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E/

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_tnKfewXqxTCe0zFuJRm8f9Ohkv8RwCImkgRC3s-pnM/edit#gid=1529730372

Genetically speaking Morocco as Atlantis is irrelevant to the falsely assumed direct relationship between E-V12 and E-V13 from the previous post. 

cormac

I was hoping you'd straighten this out.

[cormac mac airt]

Quote

Loosdrecht et al. (2018) analysed genome-wide data from seven ancient Iberomaurusian individuals from the Grotte des Pigeons near Taforalt in eastern Morocco. The fossils were directly dated to between 15,100 and 13,900 calibrated years before present. The scientists found that five male specimens with sufficient nuclear DNA preservation belonged to the E1b1b1a1 (M78) subclade, with one skeleton bearing the E1b1b1a1b1 parent lineage to E-V13, another male specimen belonged to E1b1b (M215*).

There is quite an error in the above as there are three types of DNA used in genetics testing 1) Y Chromosomal DNA, 2) Mitochondrial DNA and 3) Nuclear (Autosomal) DNA. In the above "someone" has confused Nuclear (Autosomal) DNA with Y Chromosomal DNA. They are NOT the same thing. What is being discussed in the above is Y Chromosome DNA ONLY. 

Edit to add:  If someone can't get the type of DNA tested right then I must question their understanding of human genetics testing in its entirety and its relevance to the current discussion as someone's understanding has shown to be wrong in the above. 

cormac

Edited November 12, 2018 by cormac mac airt

[Lord Harry]

@kmt_sesh since @Spiros is so adamant that aliens played an important role in development of ancient Egyptian civilization, surely he has convincing evidence to back up his claims.

Perhaps we should do what we did to Cladking over at Historum and hold his feet to the fire until he provides the evidence?

Edited November 12, 2018 by Lord Harry

[Lord Harry]

And no Spiros, the astronomical alignment of the Giza pyramids does not qualify as convincing evidence.

[Kenemet]

5 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Say whaaa..?

Atlantis.

The Greeks were on the rise as Egypt was on the wane. The Greeks had scholars go to Egypt just to pick their brains for all they could.

First of all, there is no reference it anything in Egypt that even remotely resembles Atlantis.  The early sites don't show an unusual style of trade goods that are too sophisticated for newly settled pastoralists.  They don't show any governors (Atlantis supposedly conquered the whole world except for Athens) other than Egyptian governors -- and there would be no reason for the Atlanteans to 'worship' three mountains in Greece.

The pyramids (which the OP says were inspired by three mountains in Greece) were very old by the time the Greek civilization was on the rise... so I'm not sure what you intended there.

[jaylemurph]

Sigh. 

Such nonsense gets around about the “Pyramids.”

Failed art project. That’s it. People who were there told me. 

—Jaylemurph 

[Spiros]

14 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

E-V13 which is attributed above to Greece originates circa 8100 BP/6100 BC while E-V12 which is attributed to Egypt originates EARLIER circa 11,900 BP/9900 BC. 

The line of genetic descendancy for E-V13 (Greece per above) in reverse order is:  E-V13 < E-L618 < E-Z1919 < E-M78 < E-L539 < E-M35 < E-M215 < E-P177 < E-P147 < E (the parent haplogroup)

The line of genetic descendancy for E-V12 (Egypt per above) in reverse order is:  E-V12 < E-Z1902 < E-M78 < E-L539 < E-M35 < E-M215 < E-P177 < E-P147 < E (the parent haplogroup)

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E/

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_tnKfewXqxTCe0zFuJRm8f9Ohkv8RwCImkgRC3s-pnM/edit#gid=1529730372

Genetically speaking Morocco as Atlantis is irrelevant to the falsely assumed direct relationship between E-V12 and E-V13 from the previous post. 

cormac

There are various estimates on the origin of these haplogroups.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68

Another probable migration to the south from Egypt was noted by Hassan et al. (2008) based upon their survey of Sudan. Specifically E-V12 and E-V22, "might have been brought to Sudan from North Africa after the progressive desertification of the Sahara around 6,000-8,000 years ago".

4,000-6,000 BC

or:

Coming to similar conclusions as the Cruciani and Trombetta team, Battaglia et al. (2008), writing prior to the discovery of E-V68, describe Egypt as "a hub for the distribution of the various geographically localized M78-related sub-clades" and, based on archaeological data, they propose that the point of origin of E-M78 (as opposed to later dispersals from Egypt) may have been in a refugium which "existed on the border of present-day Sudan and Egypt, near Lake Nubia, until the onset of a humid phase around 8500 BC. The northward-moving rainfall belts during this period could have also spurred a rapid migration of Mesolithic foragers northwards in Africa, the Levant and ultimately onwards to Asia Minor and Europe, where they each eventually differentiated into their regionally distinctive branches".

8,500 BC

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Moroccans#Moroccan_Y-DNA_chromosome

For example, Battaglia et al. (2007) estimated that E-M78 (called E1b1b1a1 in that paper) has been in Europe longer than 10,000 years.

8,000 BC

Among ancient specimens, Loosdrecht et al. (2018) found one

E-V13-carrying fossil at the Grotte des Pigeons near Taforalt in eastern Morocco. The skeleton has been directly dated to between 15,100 and 13,900 calibrated years before present.

 

Both E-V12(Egyptians) and E-V13(Greeks) originate from E-M78. According to Semino et al. 2004 , 42.9% of Modern Arabs (Moroccans) are E-M78 and according to Cruciani et al. 2004, 38.9% of Modern Arabs (Moroccans)  are E-M78. 

All major sub-branches of E-M35 are thought to have originated in the same general area as the parent clade: in

North Africa, Horn of Africa, and the Near East.

 

The genetic evidence thus leads to the conclusion that thousands of years before Plato's Atlantis 9,600 BC, a group of people lived near the Atlas mountains who were called Atlanteans. They seem to be genetically the forefathers of the ancient Egyptians and in part of the ancient Greeks(Neolithic Pelasgians).

 

 

[Spiros]

15 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

There is quite an error in the above as there are three types of DNA used in genetics testing 1) Y Chromosomal DNA, 2) Mitochondrial DNA and 3) Nuclear (Autosomal) DNA. In the above "someone" has confused Nuclear (Autosomal) DNA with Y Chromosomal DNA. They are NOT the same thing. What is being discussed in the above is Y Chromosome DNA ONLY. 

Edit to add:  If someone can't get the type of DNA tested right then I must question their understanding of human genetics testing in its entirety and its relevance to the current discussion as someone's understanding has shown to be wrong in the above. 

cormac

No the scientist that prepared that article is not wrong. You are wrong.

Quote

These 23 pairs of chromosomes are known as nuclear DNA because, with the exception of red blood cells, they reside in the nucleus of every cell in our body.

We also inherit our mitochondrial DNA, mtDNA, from our mother, and none from our father. Mitochondrial DNA is located outside the nucleus of the cell.

Autosomal DNA is contained in the 22 pairs of chromosomes not involved in determining a person's sex.

 

 

 

 

This means that Y Chromosomal DNA is found in the nucleus!

Edited November 12, 2018 by Spiros

[Spiros]

19 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Say whaaa..?

Atlantis.

The Greeks were on the rise as Egypt was on the wane. The Greeks had scholars go to Egypt just to pick their brains for all they could.

The identity of the Greeks is usually historically or mythically associated with the dialects spoken by the offspring of Hellen, Aeolus, Dorus, and Ion. No-one can safely date the emergence of the Greek language historically. The Kurgan Indo European migration hypothesis that dates to roughly 2,000 BC  is just a theory. Ancient Greeks considered the older inhabitants of Hellas to be Pelasgians. The Egyptian scribe that talked to Solon agrees with modern archeologists that the Neolithic period(civilization) started in Greece 1,000 years earlier than in Egypt. There were a number of important Proto-Helladic settlements in ancient Greek that were contemporaneous to the IV dynasty Egyptian era. These were founded so as to encode pyramid information. They were part of the greater plan. 

The 3 volume book of archaeologist Spyropoulos that excavated Pellana(Lacedaemon), Kardamitsa publishing, Athens 2013:

 

 

 

His book in Greek on the Amphion pyramid:

Ampheion: Research and study of the Ampheion of Thebes monument. Sparta 1981

Edited November 12, 2018 by Spiros

[Spiros]

14 hours ago, Lord Harry said:

And no Spiros, the astronomical alignment of the Giza pyramids does not qualify as convincing evidence.

Two monuments might point to an astronomical alignment, a star rising for example, but due to precession this alignment is not eternal.  This is the reason that geographical or geodetic alignments are superior. If two pyramids point to a mountain, they will continue pointing to the same mountain for a long time, that is if they are not destroyed/dismantled. But even if they are destroyed/dismantled, if we know where they were, the correlation, historical transfer of  information, is thill there. 

Edited November 12, 2018 by Spiros

[Harte]

1 hour ago, Spiros said:

The genetic evidence thus leads to the conclusion that thousands of years before Plato's Atlantis 9,600 BC, a group of people lived near the Atlas mountains who were called Atlanteans. They seem to be genetically the forefathers of the ancient Egyptians and in part of the ancient Greeks(Neolithic Pelasgians).

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that you can't get the name of a people from their DNA.

Maybe you could show us how that was done.

Harte

[Spiros]

7 minutes ago, Harte said:

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that you can't get the name of a people from their DNA.

Maybe you could show us how that was done.

Harte

Since there is no way of finding and reading writing of this period, there is no way of knowing their real name. This is a convention based on Plato.

 

This is based on a numerical code:

 

ELLAS(Greece) = 5+30+30+1+200 = 266

ATLAS = 1 + 300 + 30 + 1 + 200 = 532 = 266 + 266

AIGYPTOS(Egypt) = 1+10+3+400+80+300+70+200 = 1,064 = 266 + 266 + 266 + 266

[Harte]

14 minutes ago, Spiros said:

Since there is no way of finding and reading writing of this period, there is no way of knowing their real name. This is a convention based on Plato.

Perhaps you should actually research Plato instead of ascribing the words of Herodotus to him.

Harte

[Spiros]

12 minutes ago, Harte said:

Perhaps you should actually research Plato instead of ascribing the words of Herodotus to him.

Harte

What words of Herodotus?  Herodotus does not mention Atlantis.

[Harte]

See what I mean?

It was Herodotus that gave that name for the people living near Mt Atlas in the Atlas Mountains, not Plato.

Harte

[cormac mac airt]

3 hours ago, Spiros said:

There are various estimates on the origin of these haplogroups.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68

4,000-6,000 BC

or:

8,500 BC

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Moroccans#Moroccan_Y-DNA_chromosome

8,000 BC

 

Quote

Among ancient specimens, Loosdrecht et al. (2018) found one

E-V13-carrying fossil at the Grotte des Pigeons near Taforalt in eastern Morocco. The skeleton has been directly dated to between 15,100 and 13,900 calibrated years before present.

 

Both E-V12(Egyptians) and E-V13(Greeks) originate from E-M78. According to Semino et al. 2004 , 42.9% of Modern Arabs (Moroccans) are E-M78 and according to Cruciani et al. 2004, 38.9% of Modern Arabs (Moroccans)  are E-M78. 

The genetic evidence thus leads to the conclusion that thousands of years before Plato's Atlantis 9,600 BC, a group of people lived near the Atlas mountains who were called Atlanteans. They seem to be genetically the forefathers of the ancient Egyptians and in part of the ancient Greeks(Neolithic Pelasgians).

You might want to STOP using outdated sources from 10+ years ago and start using updated sources. Things change. 

This claim about the E-V13 carrying fossil IS NOT in the original paper and even the Wiki link that you use is contradictory as it makes both of these claims: 

Quote

Loosdrecht et al. (2018) analysed genome-wide data from seven ancient Iberomaurusian individuals from the Grotte des Pigeons near Taforalt in eastern Morocco. The fossils were directly dated to between 15,100 and 13,900 calibrated years before present. The scientists found that all the male specimens with sufficient nuclear DNA preservation belonged to the E1b1b1a1 (M78) subclade, with one skeleton bearing the E1b1b1a1b1 parent lineage to E-V13.

and 

Quote

Among ancient specimens, Loosdrecht et al. (2018) found one E-V13-carrying fossil at the Grotte des Pigeons near Taforalt in eastern Morocco. The skeleton has been directly dated to between 15,100 and 13,900 calibrated years before present.

Apparently it has to be pointed out that "Parent-lineage" and "E-V13 carrying fossil" ARE NOT the same thing. The quote from the Wiki link in this regard is much like if you claimed to be your own grandpa. Obviously can't happen. 

Either use updated sources or excuse yourself from further embarrassment. 

The genetic evidence DOES NOT support your conclusion. Sorry. 

It would behoove one who uses Wiki as a source to ALSO understand what the sources REALLY say instead of someone's incorrect interpretation of same. 

cormac

[cormac mac airt]

2 hours ago, Spiros said:

No the scientist that prepared that article is not wrong. You are wrong.

This means that Y Chromosomal DNA is found in the nucleus!

The scientist was talking about two different sets of DNA, autosomal and Y Chromosome. You've understood what was discussed incorrectly. 

Quote

The final data set includes 593,124
intersecting autosomal SNPs with 183,041 to
544,232 SNP positions covered for each of the
five individuals (table S3). For group-based analyses
involving other ancient individuals, we
adopted the population labels from the original
studies (4, 16). We found an overall high genetic
relatedness between the Taforalt individuals, suggesting
a strong population bottleneck (fig. S26).
We analyzed the genetic affinities of the Taforalt
individuals by performing principal components
analysis and model-based clustering of worldwide
data (Fig. 2). When projected onto the top principal
components of African and west Eurasian
populations, the Taforalt individuals form a distinct
cluster in an intermediate position between
present-day North Africans [e.g., Amazighes
(Berbers), Mozabites, and Saharawis] and East
Africans (e.g., Afars, Oromos, and Somalis) (Fig. 2A).
Consistently,we find that all males with sufficient
nuclear DNA preservation carry Y haplogroup
E1b1b1a1 (M-78; table S16).

The above is a brief discussion of the combination of nuclear (autosomal) DNA and its relationship to Y haplogroup E1b1b1a1 in the above regard.

cormac

[Windowpane]

25 minutes ago, Harte said:

 

It was Herodotus that gave that name for the people living near Mt Atlas in the Atlas Mountains, not Plato.

 

Herodotus p 300 (IV, 185).

[Spiros]

17 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

The scientist was talking about two different sets of DNA, autosomal and Y Chromosome. 

Correct. I did not mention autosomal DNA or mitochondrial DNA for that matter, because I didn't have relative historical data regarding this so as to compare populations in Neolithic or Mesolithic, Greece, Egypt, or Morocco(North-West Africa). 

[Spiros]

20 minutes ago, Windowpane said:

Herodotus p 300 (IV, 185).

OK sorry. We can call them Atlantes according to Herodotus due to the mountain, or Atlantioi according to Plato due to Atlantis.

[Spiros]

33 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

You might want to STOP using outdated sources from 10+ years ago and start using updated sources. Things change. 

This claim about the E-V13 carrying fossil IS NOT in the original paper and even the Wiki link that you use is contradictory as it makes both of these claims: 

and 

Apparently it has to be pointed out that "Parent-lineage" and "E-V13 carrying fossil" ARE NOT the same thing. The quote from the Wiki link in this regard is much like if you claimed to be your own grandpa. Obviously can't happen. 

Either use updated sources or excuse yourself from further embarrassment. 

The genetic evidence DOES NOT support your conclusion. Sorry. 

It would behoove one who uses Wiki as a source to ALSO understand what the sources REALLY say instead of someone's incorrect interpretation of same. 

cormac

It would make sense if E-V13 does not appear that early in Morocco since as scientists claim it first appeared millenia later in Europe. But this does not prove my hypothesis is wrong. I claimed that both E-V13 and E-V12 seem to have evolved from parent haplogroups that existed in Morocco at 9,600 BC. One such haplogroup is M78.

Also, I am not an expert but E1b1b1a1b1 does not look like a parent lineage to E-V13. This because E-V13 is E1b1b1a1a1a. Maybe E1b1b1a1a1 is a parent lineage or E1b1b1a1, but how is E1b1b1a1b1?

 

[Hanslune]

1 hour ago, Harte said:

See what I mean?

It was Herodotus that gave that name for the people living near Mt Atlas in the Atlas Mountains, not Plato.

Harte