Trump Preparing "Tent City" for Migrants

[RoofGardener]

I think that is in YOUR mind, not in reality

 

[Gromdor]

29 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

I think that is in YOUR mind, not in reality

 

RavenHawk on the Carvan Migrant thread:

"It’s irony because you don’t understand the tactics?

Humanely and quickly would be to stop the caravan long before it gets here.  It’s the President’s job to protect and defend Americans first.  This helps people.  But if you are stupid enough to slap a tiger on the nose, then it is you that deserve the outcome.  It’s really amazing that people will travel 2000 miles facing more dangers than taking a stand at home.  The reason why is that they’ve been told a fantasy.  They’ve had their heads filled with false stories.  Instead of informing them what being an American citizen means and telling them how to properly apply, no one tells them of what will be required of them.  Perhaps when enough people have paid the ultimate price, they will lose heart and return home.  Besides, our southern deserts need more bleached bones to mark the border."

[Tatetopa]

2 hours ago, skliss said:

They did it so we could have a better start than they did but make no mistake we still have and had to work for everything we have.  My father's great grandfather came here yet he was born in what he termed a "ghetto",  served in the army, after worked in a mill all day, went to night school and had a wife and 2 kids by the time he graduated. Even my husband worked full time while putting himself through college. So dont say it like we all sit around on their dime and eat bon bons.

So Skliss, you have summed up this argument perfectly.    What you and your family have done after your great grandparents came here is yours.  You had the opportunity to work hard and get ahead.  Good for you that you did.

The PRIVILEGE  that your  ancestors bought though their danger and sacrifice is to be born in the United States.  You were born in a land of opportunity, freedom, relative equality, and the ability to keep the fruits of your hard labor.  That was not your doing, that was your extreme good fortune.

If your ancestors came from Eastern Europe or Russia, they fled from death and starvation, land confiscation and much indignity.  If they came from Ireland or Scotland, they might have been dispossessed commoners.  The Irish who came as a result of the potato famine were considered worthless, lazy , ignorant peasants who were starving because of their own shortcomings. All of these folks and many more were considered criminals or low -life by the governments ruling their country. 

Did your ancestors come to rich America to freeload, or to work hard and better their families?

It is the same today.  Most of the people in these movements are fleeing from repressive governments or anarchic violence.  They wan to work hard and find a better life for their families.

Some comments on this thread are of the nature of "why don't they just get it together and fix their country?"  Did our ancestors overthrow the Czar, or end Hitler, or throw the English out of our ancestral lands?  For all of the best intent and uprisings we did not.    Not so easy for a group of ill-equipped and disorganized people to overcome a well trained government supported army.

Some say we can't possibly take them all.  I agree.  But we can admit some that want the same chance our ancestors have.  I support strong borders and controlled immigration.  We do not need to feel guilt that we cannot save everybody, but we cannot avoid guilt by convincing ourselves that these people are dangerous subhuman trash.  THAT insults many of our own ancestors who found themselves in similar circumstances.

What I find despicable is the lying and fear mongering associated with this and making  it a political tool to stay in power.  Fear and lies should not replace logic and problem solving and courage, but they have.   If your ancestors had been met at the border by people screaming that they were criminals and worthless and should not have a chance to make themselves better and make America better at the same time,  where would you be?

 

 

[skliss]

2 hours ago, Gromdor said:

Oh, well that's what the Democrats I talked to wanted as well.  Seems like you have something in common.

  My hardcore right wing friends want the military to shoot at them, round them up and detain them for years, reduce the number of judges, take their kids away, and then just leave them to rot to dissuade any future asylum seekers from coming.  Oh and land mines along the wall.

I find that hard to believe. I talk to a lot of people from both sides and have never heard "land mines" or "taking kids and leaving them to rot", etc. 

[skliss]

43 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

So Skliss, you have summed up this argument perfectly.    What you and your family have done after your great grandparents came here is yours.  You had the opportunity to work hard and get ahead.  Good for you that you did.

The PRIVILEGE  that your  ancestors bought though their danger and sacrifice is to be born in the United States.  You were born in a land of opportunity, freedom, relative equality, and the ability to keep the fruits of your hard labor.  That was not your doing, that was your extreme good fortune.

If your ancestors came from Eastern Europe or Russia, they fled from death and starvation, land confiscation and much indignity.  If they came from Ireland or Scotland, they might have been dispossessed commoners.  The Irish who came as a result of the potato famine were considered worthless, lazy , ignorant peasants who were starving because of their own shortcomings. All of these folks and many more were considered criminals or low -life by the governments ruling their country. 

Did your ancestors come to rich America to freeload, or to work hard and better their families?

It is the same today.  Most of the people in these movements are fleeing from repressive governments or anarchic violence.  They wan to work hard and find a better life for their families.

Some comments on this thread are of the nature of "why don't they just get it together and fix their country?"  Did our ancestors overthrow the Czar, or end Hitler, or throw the English out of our ancestral lands?  For all of the best intent and uprisings we did not.    Not so easy for a group of ill-equipped and disorganized people to overcome a well trained government supported army.

Some say we can't possibly take them all.  I agree.  But we can admit some that want the same chance our ancestors have.  I support strong borders and controlled immigration.  We do not need to feel guilt that we cannot save everybody, but we cannot avoid guilt by convincing ourselves that these people are dangerous subhuman trash.  THAT insults many of our own ancestors who found themselves in similar circumstances.

What I find despicable is the lying and fear mongering associated with this and making  it a political tool to stay in power.  Fear and lies should not replace logic and problem solving and courage, but they have.   If your ancestors had been met at the border by people screaming that they were criminals and worthless and should not have a chance to make themselves better and make America better at the same time,  where would you be?

 

 

Being born privileged and being born in a place that has opportunity thru hard work and dedication are two different things. And no matter what they called the Irish, they were a huge part of the backbone this country was built on. They weren't standing around with their hands out. I also have ancestors traced back to before 1812 so weve been here a while. 

Maybe some part of these people want to come here to work hard and better their families but there is a large part that buys the fantasy, like you said, that we are giving it all away....and in large part, we are. I'm tired of the bleeding. Did I used to feel we always should help...yes...not any more. I'm tired of being taken advantage of, I'm tired of expecting to be the answer to their problems and I'm tired of foreigners telling us how we should feel and how we should behave. You take 'am if you are so het up about it, be my guest! 

There have also been people throughout history who have over thrown those in power when they get fed up. I don't know why Honduras is the way it is, maybe it's the people they voted in like Venezuela. Then they need to make better choices. 

Don't come knock on my door because you've made a mess of your own house and demand to live in mine, on my dime and my time waving the flag of your country...a country so..uh..messed up that you couldn't get out of it fast enough.

And what was going on in this country when my ancestors came here was totally different. It's not a valid comparison.

[Gromdor]

19 minutes ago, skliss said:

I find that hard to believe. I talk to a lot of people from both sides and have never heard "land mines" or "taking kids and leaving them to rot", etc. 

Well, I do live in Steve King (R)'s district.  He usually gets 61% or so of the vote for the eight terms he has been in.  https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/10/steve-king-white-nationalism-iowa-midterm

You might know him as the guy with the confederate flag on his desk in a union state.  He didn't get and hold that position for the last decade or so from non-like minded voters.

Heck, out of state Republicans won't help him because of his, err views: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/31/gop-fund-wont-help-steve-king-in-tight-race-due-to-white-supremacist-support.html

[skliss]

4 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

Well, I do live in Steve King (R)'s district.  He usually gets 61% or so of the vote for the eight terms he has been in.  https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/10/steve-king-white-nationalism-iowa-midterm

You might know him as the guy with the confederate flag on his desk in a union state.  He didn't get and hold that position for the last decade or so from non-like minded voters.

Heck, out of state Republicans won't help him because of his, err views: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/31/gop-fund-wont-help-steve-king-in-tight-race-due-to-white-supremacist-support.html

Nice to know they are distancing themselves from him. They need to find someone in the party to run against him. 

[Gromdor]

Just now, skliss said:

Nice to know they are distancing themselves from him. They need to find someone in the party to run against him. 

They do, but sadly the people in this district get to select who best represents their values via the primaries.  They like him because he represents their personal beliefs the closest.  Which goes back to explain how I get to sit around at lunch time and try to explain why we can't use landmines on the border wall every other week or so.  Some talked about joining this:   https://thehill.com/homenews/news/414771-us-militia-groups-planning-to-form-their-own-caravan-and-head-to-border

[Myles]

3 hours ago, Gromdor said:

 

  My hardcore right wing friends want the military to shoot at them, round them up and detain them for years, reduce the number of judges, take their kids away, and then just leave them to rot to dissuade any future asylum seekers from coming.  Oh and land mines along the wall.

The only time I hear talk like that is when someone is upset because no one is listening to them.   I haven't met anyone who actually thinks that way.    Similar to some left wing folks who mention that we should take in anyone who wants to come here.   I brush that off the same way. 

 

It's interesting how tents have now been branded as evil.     I have to assume that these migrants will be thrilled to have the shelter of a tent.  

 

[skliss]

23 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

They do, but sadly the people in this district get to select who best represents their values via the primaries.  They like him because he represents their personal beliefs the closest.  Which goes back to explain how I get to sit around at lunch time and try to explain why we can't use landmines on the border wall every other week or so.  Some talked about joining this:   https://thehill.com/homenews/news/414771-us-militia-groups-planning-to-form-their-own-caravan-and-head-to-border

They must all be in your area because I get around and have met no one like those. 

[Tatetopa]

2 hours ago, skliss said:

Being born privileged and being born in a place that has opportunity thru hard work and dedication are two different things.

You are thinking of privilege as money.  Being born in America is a privilege all its own. It takes hard work and dedication to make something out of it.  Whats wrong with that?  It is still a privilege to be born here.   Just curious, what do you think was different about America  in your great grandparents time than today?

[Tatetopa]

2 hours ago, skliss said:

And no matter what they called the Irish, they were a huge part of the backbone this country was built on. They weren't standing around with their hands out. I also have ancestors traced back to before 1812 so weve been here a while. 

Irish were despised when they came to America.  Check your history.  Read up on St. Patrick's Brigade for a shocker.  Irish soldiers  who were so maltreated in the American army that they left the country and fought for the Mexicans.  Most were hung as traitors.  Yes they did build this country, but they were not respected for a hundred years or more.

[Big Jim]

4 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

So Skliss, you have summed up this argument perfectly.    What you and your family have done after your great grandparents came here is yours.  You had the opportunity to work hard and get ahead.  Good for you that you did.

The PRIVILEGE  that your  ancestors bought though their danger and sacrifice is to be born in the United States.  You were born in a land of opportunity, freedom, relative equality, and the ability to keep the fruits of your hard labor.  That was not your doing, that was your extreme good fortune.

If your ancestors came from Eastern Europe or Russia, they fled from death and starvation, land confiscation and much indignity.  If they came from Ireland or Scotland, they might have been dispossessed commoners.  The Irish who came as a result of the potato famine were considered worthless, lazy , ignorant peasants who were starving because of their own shortcomings. All of these folks and many more were considered criminals or low -life by the governments ruling their country. 

Did your ancestors come to rich America to freeload, or to work hard and better their families?

It is the same today.  Most of the people in these movements are fleeing from repressive governments or anarchic violence.  They wan to work hard and find a better life for their families.

Some comments on this thread are of the nature of "why don't they just get it together and fix their country?"  Did our ancestors overthrow the Czar, or end Hitler, or throw the English out of our ancestral lands?  For all of the best intent and uprisings we did not.    Not so easy for a group of ill-equipped and disorganized people to overcome a well trained government supported army.

Some say we can't possibly take them all.  I agree.  But we can admit some that want the same chance our ancestors have.  I support strong borders and controlled immigration.  We do not need to feel guilt that we cannot save everybody, but we cannot avoid guilt by convincing ourselves that these people are dangerous subhuman trash.  THAT insults many of our own ancestors who found themselves in similar circumstances.

What I find despicable is the lying and fear mongering associated with this and making  it a political tool to stay in power.  Fear and lies should not replace logic and problem solving and courage, but they have.   If your ancestors had been met at the border by people screaming that they were criminals and worthless and should not have a chance to make themselves better and make America better at the same time,  where would you be?

 

 

The one big difference between the immigrants you mention and the ones in the approaching caravan is that they all came in legally.  All immigrants from Europe and points east came by ship and were processed through ports of entry.  Some were turned away.  No one swam the Atlantic and snuck in by night.  Eventually they all learned English.  They didn't fly the flags of their former country on American soil.  The labels in the grocery stores were never printed in French, German, Russian or Italian.  They assimilated.  By the next generation they were Americans.  We have many people of Hispanic heritage who came in the same way.  No one has a problem with them.  It's not race or ethnicity or national origin that makes these people unwelcome by so many, it is the audacity that they think they can come here and just barge in and that we should all cater to them.

[Gromdor]

1 hour ago, Big Jim said:

The one big difference between the immigrants you mention and the ones in the approaching caravan is that they all came in legally.  All immigrants from Europe and points east came by ship and were processed through ports of entry.  Some were turned away.  No one swam the Atlantic and snuck in by night.  Eventually they all learned English.  They didn't fly the flags of their former country on American soil.  The labels in the grocery stores were never printed in French, German, Russian or Italian.  They assimilated.  By the next generation they were Americans.  We have many people of Hispanic heritage who came in the same way.  No one has a problem with them.  It's not race or ethnicity or national origin that makes these people unwelcome by so many, it is the audacity that they think they can come here and just barge in and that we should all cater to them.

You know, we wouldn't have half the problems we have now if we hadn't changed the laws and port of entries to what we have now from then.  Half the problem is that there isn't a clear clean path for migration like there was for the Irish, Italians, etc.  We changed things to dissuade immigration but we did it half way.  The whole asylum thing combined with them having to be physically present in the US for example.

[Big Jim]

7 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

You know, we wouldn't have half the problems we have now if we hadn't changed the laws and port of entries to what we have now from then.  Half the problem is that there isn't a clear clean path for migration like there was for the Irish, Italians, etc.  We changed things to dissuade immigration but we did it half way.  The whole asylum thing combined with them having to be physically present in the US for example.

That could be corrected with a few road signs in Mexico.  Asylum should be a longshot way to come to the US since international law requires that they apply in the first safe country they come to.  The current band of migrants was offered asylum in Mexico but turned it down because they preferred America's hospitality.  Pleas for asylum are by definition a desperate act.  It should not become a smorgasbord of affluent countries to choose from.  

[skliss]

2 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

You are thinking of privilege as money.  Being born in America is a privilege all its own. It takes hard work and dedication to make something out of it.  Whats wrong with that?  It is still a privilege to be born here.   Just curious, what do you think was different about America  in your great grandparents time than today?

Population, welfare was non-existent, the social structure was different,  educational systems really just about everything. Privilege isn't just money, it's having everything handed to you, an easy path. Even my parents grew up in a time when the path wasn't easy.

[+and-then]

8 hours ago, Gromdor said:

Oh and land mines along the wall.

Yup.  With the exception of safe areas where LEGAL passage is enjoyed, you're damned right.  

[Setton]

1 minute ago, and then said:

Yup.  With the exception of safe areas where LEGAL passage is enjoyed, you're damned right.  

Oh look, it's another of those republicans that don't exist... 

[skliss]

2 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Irish were despised when they came to America.  Check your history.  Read up on St. Patrick's Brigade for a shocker.  Irish soldiers  who were so maltreated in the American army that they left the country and fought for the Mexicans.  Most were hung as traitors.  Yes they did build this country, but they were not respected for a hundred years or more.

I know my history,  thanks for the condescension. And your point? They didn't ask for anything, they worked their behinds off and they assimilated. They didn't invade waving their old county's flag expecting a hand out. They eventually got the respect they deserved.

[Farmer77]

13 hours ago, skliss said:

I thought a big reason was because they needed to determine if these kids were actually family with person bringing them. 

I believe the truth is a mix of both. The administration is on record stating they wanted to do it as a deterrent:

Here are the administration officials who have said that family separation is meant as a deterrent+

 

[+susieice]

6 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

You are thinking of privilege as money.  Being born in America is a privilege all its own. It takes hard work and dedication to make something out of it.  Whats wrong with that?  It is still a privilege to be born here.   Just curious, what do you think was different about America  in your great grandparents time than today?

Not everyone expected a hand out. They came from everywhere with the knowledge they had the opportunity to work for a better life for themselves and their families. And now we have a lot of people born here who think everyone owes them. That's a big difference!

[+Hammerclaw]

10 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

So Skliss, you have summed up this argument perfectly.    What you and your family have done after your great grandparents came here is yours.  You had the opportunity to work hard and get ahead.  Good for you that you did.

The PRIVILEGE  that your  ancestors bought though their danger and sacrifice is to be born in the United States.  You were born in a land of opportunity, freedom, relative equality, and the ability to keep the fruits of your hard labor.  That was not your doing, that was your extreme good fortune.

If your ancestors came from Eastern Europe or Russia, they fled from death and starvation, land confiscation and much indignity.  If they came from Ireland or Scotland, they might have been dispossessed commoners.  The Irish who came as a result of the potato famine were considered worthless, lazy , ignorant peasants who were starving because of their own shortcomings. All of these folks and many more were considered criminals or low -life by the governments ruling their country. 

Did your ancestors come to rich America to freeload, or to work hard and better their families?

It is the same today.  Most of the people in these movements are fleeing from repressive governments or anarchic violence.  They wan to work hard and find a better life for their families.

Some comments on this thread are of the nature of "why don't they just get it together and fix their country?"  Did our ancestors overthrow the Czar, or end Hitler, or throw the English out of our ancestral lands?  For all of the best intent and uprisings we did not.    Not so easy for a group of ill-equipped and disorganized people to overcome a well trained government supported army.

Some say we can't possibly take them all.  I agree.  But we can admit some that want the same chance our ancestors have.  I support strong borders and controlled immigration.  We do not need to feel guilt that we cannot save everybody, but we cannot avoid guilt by convincing ourselves that these people are dangerous subhuman trash.  THAT insults many of our own ancestors who found themselves in similar circumstances.

What I find despicable is the lying and fear mongering associated with this and making  it a political tool to stay in power.  Fear and lies should not replace logic and problem solving and courage, but they have.   If your ancestors had been met at the border by people screaming that they were criminals and worthless and should not have a chance to make themselves better and make America better at the same time,  where would you be?

 

 

I think we are doing more than our fair share. Check this link out and then let me know what you think.

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/frequently-requested-statistics-immigrants-and-immigration-united-states

[Farmer77]

33 minutes ago, susieice said:

Not everyone expected a hand out.

So then you think everyone in the migrant caravan is coming here because they do expect a handout?

[Tatetopa]

6 hours ago, Big Jim said:

Eventually they all learned English.  They didn't fly the flags of their former country on American soil.  The labels in the grocery stores were never printed in French, German, Russian or Italian.  They assimilated.  By the next generation they were Americans.  We have many people of Hispanic heritage who came in the same way.  No one has a problem with them.  It's not race or ethnicity or national origin that makes these people unwelcome by so many, it is the audacity that they think they can come here and just barge in and that we should all cater to them.

There are still ethnic neighborhoods in most large cities where shops are labeled in other languages and people still don't all speak English well.  

We didn't ask for those ships of disease ridden Irish famine victims to show up, they just did.  They had the audacity to get on a ship come to America and expect the population to just let them come ashore and get jobs.   We totally catered to them didn't we.  The nerve of them!

[+susieice]

7 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

So then you think everyone in the migrant caravan is coming here because they do expect a handout?

Did I say that?