South American myths of the great cataclysm

[Razumov]

 

https://archive.org/details/MythAndGeology

Major natural catastrophes such as floods, fire, darkness, and 'sky falling down' are  prominently reflected in traditional South America creation myths, cosmology, religion, and  worldview. Cosmogonic myths represent a rich and largely untapped data set concerning the most dramatic natural events and processes experienced by cultural groups during the past  several thousand years. Observational details regarding specific catastrophes are encoded in  myth storylines, typically cast in terms of supernatural characters and actions. Not only are the  myths amenable to scientific analysis, some sets of myths encode multiple catastrophes in meaningful relative chronological order. The present study considers 4259 myths, including 284 'uni-  versal' (perceived in the narratives to be worldwide) catastrophe myths, from 20 cultural groups  east of the Andes. These myths are examined in light of available geological, palaeoenvironmental, archaeological, and documentary evidence. Our analysis reveals three likely major Plinian volcanic eruptions in Columbia and the Gran Chaco. We also identify a set of traditions that are  probably linked to the well-known Campo del Cielo iron meteorite impact in northern Argentina  around 4000 years ago, along with a separate set of traditions alluding to a possible airburst in the  Brazilian Highlands. These impacts apparently triggered widespread mass fires. There are hints of  cosmic impacts in the mythologies for other locations in South America.    

 

Edited November 9, 2018 by Razumov
Fixed text format

[Piney]

Good post! 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campo_del_Cielo

[Razumov]

[Sheltie]

I agree that many South American myths are a fantastic untapped source of ancient and prehistoric history.  They could also affirm many of our current scientific theories about the past. 

At the same time, they must be tempered with caution as they are also open for potential misinterpretation depending on one's viewpoint.  Look at all the people who interpreted the end of the Mesoamerican Long Count calendar as signaling the end of the world in 2012.   

[Razumov]

8 minutes ago, Sheltie said:

I agree that many South American myths are a fantastic untapped source of ancient and prehistoric history.  They could also affirm many of our current scientific theories about the past. 

At the same time, they must be tempered with caution as they are also open for potential misinterpretation depending on one's viewpoint.  Look at all the people who interpreted the end of the Mesoamerican Long Count calendar as signaling the end of the world in 2012.   

I have always found it amusing that New Age types are so agog at a civilization that practiced mass human sacrifice.

[jaylemurph]

20 minutes ago, Sheltie said:

I agree that many South American myths are a fantastic untapped source of ancient and prehistoric history.  They could also affirm many of our current scientific theories about the past. 

At the same time, they must be tempered with caution as they are also open for potential misinterpretation depending on one's viewpoint.  Look at all the people who interpreted the end of the Mesoamerican Long Count calendar as signaling the end of the world in 2012.   

Sheltie raises an excellent point. No person with a serious interest in history would start down this path without a strict, rigorous methodology that allows them to separate the actually fictional from the verisimilitude necessary for storytelling -- what system do you have in place for determining what's true and what's false, other than what happens to be convenient to fitting your theory?

--Jaylemurph

[Minimalists]

9 hours ago, Sheltie said:

I agree that many South American myths are a fantastic untapped source of ancient and prehistoric history.  They could also affirm many of our current scientific theories about the past. 

At the same time, they must be tempered with caution as they are also open for potential misinterpretation depending on one's viewpoint.  Look at all the people who interpreted the end of the Mesoamerican Long Count calendar as signaling the end of the world in 2012.   

Quote

Look at all the people who interpreted the end of the Mesoamerican Long Count calendar as signaling the end of the world in 2012.   

Yeah and we all know how that turned out....Flop!

[Kenemet]

In order to attribute something like that, you have to show that other more recent events entered into folklore and were reasonably recorded AND that the tribe lived there at the time and did not migrate in from elsewhere due to warfare or other conflict or environmental pressures such as drought and flood.  We know from literate civilizations that not much gets transmitted accurately, even by those with "sacred history".

[Piney]

2 hours ago, Kenemet said:

In order to attribute something like that, you have to show that other more recent events entered into folklore and were reasonably recorded AND that the tribe lived there at the time and did not migrate in from elsewhere due to warfare or other conflict or environmental pressures such as drought and flood.  We know from literate civilizations that not much gets transmitted accurately, even by those with "sacred history".

We know that the ancestors of the Dene ( Apaches and Navajos) migrated into the Southwest after a major volcanic eruption in Alaska. The oral history of their relatives, the Athapascan in the Northwest of North America agree with this ( "The Ones who Left"). But the Navajo oral history disagrees and I had a Apache Cultural Resources Officer argue with me that they were always in the Southwest. 

[Kenemet]

1 hour ago, Piney said:

We know that the ancestors of the Dene ( Apaches and Navajos) migrated into the Southwest after a major volcanic eruption in Alaska. The oral history of their relatives, the Athapascan in the Northwest of North America agree with this ( "The Ones who Left"). But the Navajo oral history disagrees and I had a Apache Cultural Resources Officer argue with me that they were always in the Southwest. 

I believe they have multiple histories... and there's a problem, too.  Which group's history i the more authentic?

[Piney]

29 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

I believe they have multiple histories... and there's a problem, too.  Which group's history i the more authentic?

The Northern Athapascan group, the Dog Rib- Yellowknives claim the ancestors of the Apache and Navajo "cut and ran" after the volcano erupted and archaeology and geology back their claim

[Sheltie]

On 11/9/2018 at 8:36 PM, jaylemurph said:

Sheltie raises an excellent point. No person with a serious interest in history would start down this path without a strict, rigorous methodology that allows them to separate the actually fictional from the verisimilitude necessary for storytelling -- what system do you have in place for determining what's true and what's false, other than what happens to be convenient to fitting your theory?

--Jaylemurph

As for the Mayan codices, given that just 3 legitimate ones are known to exist amid probable destruction and subsequent forgery, it is difficult to determine the authenticity of source.  

Edited November 11, 2018 by Sheltie
typo

[Swede]

22 hours ago, Piney said:

We know that the ancestors of the Dene ( Apaches and Navajos) migrated into the Southwest after a major volcanic eruption in Alaska. The oral history of their relatives, the Athapascan in the Northwest of North America agree with this ( "The Ones who Left"). But the Navajo oral history disagrees and I had a Apache Cultural Resources Officer argue with me that they were always in the Southwest. 

Amongst the Navajo, there are similar positions. Without mentioning names, there are prominent individuals with archy experience who do not want the results of legitimate research presented to their youth as it conflicts with their creation stories. Years ago, the NPS really dropped the ball in regards to the Four Corners region. Hence the angst of the Hopi, etc.

.

[Piney]

15 minutes ago, Swede said:

Amongst the Navajo, there are similar positions. Without mentioning names, there are prominent individuals with archy experience who do not want the results of legitimate research presented to their youth as it conflicts with their creation stories. Years ago, the NPS really dropped the ball in regards to the Four Corners region. Hence the angst of the Hopi, etc.

I remember the "Ship Rock Affair" now.    

Hey we have Curtis Zuniga........Meh, "They" have Curtis. I'm no longer tribal.

[jaylemurph]

2 hours ago, Sheltie said:

As for the Mayan codices, given that just 3 legitimate ones are known to exist amid probable destruction and subsequent forgery, it is difficult to determine the authenticity of source.  

There are plenty of other archaeological and geological methods for confirming events. 

—Jaylemurph 

Edited November 12, 2018 by jaylemurph

[Razumov]

On 11/10/2018 at 1:02 PM, Kenemet said:

In order to attribute something like that, you have to show that other more recent events entered into folklore and were reasonably recorded AND that the tribe lived there at the time and did not migrate in from elsewhere due to warfare or other conflict or environmental pressures such as drought and flood.  We know from literate civilizations that not much gets transmitted accurately, even by those with "sacred history".

Tribes in South America have accurate folklore of the Megatherium that according to science died off 10,000 years ago.

https://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/08/world/americas/08amazon.html

Glenn Shepard Jr., an American ethnobiologist and anthropologist based in Manaus, said he was among the skeptics until 1997, when he was doing research about local wildlife among the Machiguenga people of the far western Amazon, in Peru. Tribal members all mentioned a fearsome slothlike creature that inhabited a hilly, forested area in their territory.

Dr. Shepard said “the clincher that really blew me away” came when a member of the tribe remarked matter of factly that he had also seen a mapinguary at the natural history museum in Lima. Dr. Shepard checked; the museum has a diorama with a model of the giant prehistoric ground sloth.

 

[jaylemurph]

Welp. That anecdote proves all. 

—Jaylemurph 

[Kenemet]

1 hour ago, Razumov said:

Tribes in South America have accurate folklore of the Megatherium that according to science died off 10,000 years ago.

https://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/08/world/americas/08amazon.html

Glenn Shepard Jr., an American ethnobiologist and anthropologist based in Manaus, said he was among the skeptics until 1997, when he was doing research about local wildlife among the Machiguenga people of the far western Amazon, in Peru. Tribal members all mentioned a fearsome slothlike creature that inhabited a hilly, forested area in their territory.

Dr. Shepard said “the clincher that really blew me away” came when a member of the tribe remarked matter of factly that he had also seen a mapinguary at the natural history museum in Lima. Dr. Shepard checked; the museum has a diorama with a model of the giant prehistoric ground sloth.

 

Your article doesn't support that they have "accurate folklore of Megatherium" -- it says that ONE person said they had one of these at the museum.   The thing is, if they "remembered" the ground sloth (not that weird because it looks generally like other sloths) then they should ALSO remember things that are extinct and have no living analogues - like Toxodon or the saber toothed cat or Gompottheres.... and they should remember all of them in the area.

 

 

 

 

[Piney]

8 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

Your article doesn't support that they have "accurate folklore of Megatherium" -- it says that ONE person said they had one of these at the museum.   The thing is, if they "remembered" the ground sloth (not that weird because it looks generally like other sloths) then they should ALSO remember things that are extinct and have no living analogues - like Toxodon or the saber toothed cat or Gompottheres.... and they should remember all of them in the area.

There was some 19th Century dreck saying that my people remembered the mammoth. It was even made into a childrens book in the 1990s "Legend of the Cranberry", but the term used for the animal was Iroquoian and I wondered why we didn't remember the giant beaver or smilodon. 

I had the book in my library which now no longer exists.

https://www.publishersweekly.com/978-0-671-75975-9

 

Edited November 12, 2018 by Piney

[jaylemurph]

Hey, look: this is me, not making a giant beaver joke. 

—Jaylemurph 

[Piney]

7 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

Hey, look: this is me, not making a giant beaver joke. 

—Jaylemurph 

Maybe I should write a childrens book on the adventures of a Paleo-Indian with a giant beaver. 

[Jarocal]

1 hour ago, Piney said:

Maybe I should write a childrens book on the adventures of a Paleo-Indian with a giant beaver. 

Make sure that the beaver has a proper first name. "Eaton" seems an appropriate name for an animal.

"The many adventures of Piney and Eaton Beaver" could be a bestseller.

Edited November 12, 2018 by Jarocal

[Windowpane]

2 hours ago, Jarocal said:

Make sure that the beaver has a proper first name. "Eaton" seems an appropriate name for an animal.

 

As he's a denizen of the river, he could sing the Eaton Boating Song  ... and, after a hard morning's boating and beavering, he might enjoy some Eaton Mess.

[Piney]

12 minutes ago, Windowpane said:

As he's a denizen of the river, he could sing the Eaton Boating Song  ... and, after a hard morning's boating and beavering, he might enjoy some Eaton Mess.

Mum's from Bradford so my Beaver would always have to quote the Brontes. 

[Windowpane]

1 hour ago, Piney said:

Mum's from Bradford so my Beaver would always have to quote the Brontes. 

Well, there's always the Bradford Canal Song ...   It should have been in Wuthering Heights or Jane Eyre, but for some unaccountable reason was omitted by the Bronte sisters ...

... although what any of this has to do with South American cataclysms, I don't know!

Edited November 12, 2018 by Windowpane
Guilty conscience about thread drift