Huge Crater Discovered in Greenland.

[Doug1029]

11 minutes ago, lost_shaman said:

I was thinking about the microspherules that are associated with a number of Clovis kill sites. 

Evidence for an extraterrestrial impact 12,900 years ago that contributed to the megafaunal extinctions and the Younger Dryas cooling 

R. B. Firestone, A. West, J. P. Kennett, L. Becker, T. E. Bunch, Z. S. Revay, P. H. Schultz, T. Belgya, D. J. Kennett, J. M. Erlandson, O. J. Dickenson, A. C. Goodyear, R. S. Harris, G. A. Howard, J. B. Kloosterman, P. Lechler, P. A. Mayewski, J. Montgomery, R. Poreda, T. Darrah, S. S. Que Hee, A. R. Smith, A. Stich, W. Topping, J. H. Wittke, and W. S. Wolbach

PNAS October 9, 2007 104 (41) 16016-16021; https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.0706977104

It seems there's plenty of evidence that SOMETHING happened about 12,900 YBP.  But was this it?  How do we know?

How does an extraterrestial impact relate to a catastrophic draining of Lake Algonquin?  Or does it?

Lots of still-unanswered questions.

Doug

[lost_shaman]

18 minutes ago, Doug1o29 said:

It seems there's plenty of evidence that SOMETHING happened about 12,900 YBP.  But was this it?  How do we know?

How does an extraterrestial impact relate to a catastrophic draining of Lake Algonquin?  Or does it?

Lots of still-unanswered questions.

Doug

One thing is for sure and that is an impact on this scale is going to leave a continent wide if not hemispheric wide boundary layer. The only one I'm aware of that doesn't have an associated crater (until now?) would be this one sometimes referred to as the black mat that overlays many of these Clovis kill sites. 

Edit: We've also known for a long time based on lithic technologies that the wide spread Clovis culture c.a 9,200 bc and their associated lithic assemblages ended abruptly to be later replaced by Folsom culture c.a 9,050 bc - 8150 bc.

Edited November 18, 2018 by lost_shaman

[Piney]

1 hour ago, lost_shaman said:

I was thinking about the microspherules that are associated with a number of Clovis kill sites. 

 

They also came from this one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteor_Crater

[lost_shaman]

5 minutes ago, Piney said:

They also came from this one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteor_Crater

With such a small size and a date of ~ 50,000 ybp it could not be associated with microspherules overlaying Clovis kill sites. 

[Carnoferox]

1 hour ago, Doug1o29 said:

An impact this large is, by definition, catastrophic.

Doug

Yes that is true, but catastrophists seek to connect many past events with impacts when it isn't the case. Plenty also want to throw imaginary lost civilizations into the mix.

[Piney]

1 hour ago, lost_shaman said:

With such a small size and a date of ~ 50,000 ybp it could not be associated with microspherules overlaying Clovis kill sites. 

Except they aren't overlaying any Clovis sites on any Pine Barren "islands" on the East Coast. 

I think they were determined to be from a volcano in the Southwest but I have to look around. 

[Piney]

2 hours ago, lost_shaman said:

Edit: We've also known for a long time based on lithic technologies that the wide spread Clovis culture c.a 9,200 bc and their associated lithic assemblages ended abruptly to be later replaced by Folsom culture c.a 9,050 bc - 8150 bc.

Not here. It slid right into Debert which was a Clovis "upgrade", with no break in the transition. 

[lost_shaman]

36 minutes ago, Piney said:

Not here. It slid right into Debert which was a Clovis "upgrade", with no break in the transition. 

Debert is an outlier. Also both Clovis and Folsom dart points are Fluted technologies, so this doesn't tell us much. Are dart points from Debert just similar to traditional Clovis culture dart points? 

[Piney]

1 minute ago, lost_shaman said:

Debert is an outlier. Also both Clovis and Folsom dart points are Fluted technologies, so this doesn't tell us much. Are dart points from Debert just similar to traditional Clovis culture dart points? 

More refined and larger. 

[lost_shaman]

13 minutes ago, Piney said:

More refined and larger. 

Well that still doesn't tell me anything and again Debert is an outlier. Folsom dart points are thinner, evenly fluted on both sides. So what do you mean by saying "more refined"?

Edit: Without giving me more detail or context... It would be easy to also say Folsom dart points are more "refined" as they are more evenly fluted on both faces. So without providing me any detail it's extremely hard for me to 'guess' at your meaning here.

Edited November 19, 2018 by lost_shaman

[lost_shaman]

At any rate, there was a continent wide abandonment of Clovis lithic technology and a Continent wide adoption of Folsom Culture and technology over a very short time span with a boundary layer separating the two. Whatever happened, it seems clear that Humans survived but Clovis technology was rapidly abandoned abruptly and Folsom technology quickly replaced it on a continental scale. 

Edit: To add to that, there are no megafauna kill sites associated with Folsom assemblages to my knowledge. Also all these megafauna (35 mammal genera) seem to have gone extinct at roughly the same time although we have no evidence of Clovis hunting anything megafauna related other than Mammoth and Mastodon. The latter two survived the Younger Dryas despite human hunting and the last Mammoths died off around 2,000 bc although these small groups seemed to have gone extinct on the continent proper with the disappearance of Clovis Culture and technology. That fact would be extremely difficult to explain from an "over kill" hypothesis. 

Edited November 19, 2018 by lost_shaman

[Piney]

7 hours ago, lost_shaman said:

Edit: To add to that, there are no megafauna kill sites associated with Folsom assemblages to my knowledge. Also all these megafauna (35 mammal genera) seem to have gone extinct at roughly the same time although we have no evidence of Clovis hunting anything megafauna related other than Mammoth and Mastodon. The latter two survived the Younger Dryas despite human hunting and the last Mammoths died off around 2,000 bc although these small groups seemed to have gone extinct on the continent proper with the disappearance of Clovis Culture and technology. That fact would be extremely difficult to explain from an "over kill" hypothesis. 

My guess is was a combination of the beginning of the  catastropnic glacial flooding, diseases were forming out of the constantly wet climate which were affecting people and animals and new knappers were getting creative in different areas to hunt smaller game. The people were also separated from each other by the floods. 

As for out West, my knowledge is limited to the Mississippi Eastwards except for some minor  cultural details about other tribes. 

The Missoula Flood broke the Algic languages right in half with Yurok and Wiyot remaining on the West Coast  and Proto-Algonquian forming on the Columbia Plateau. That's a big space in between.  Large mega-fauna probably couldn't get out of the way in time, where the little animals could run like hell. Then the stranded groups had to hunt new critters.

My brain isn't working too well. I had to abandon my lifestyle and I'm at my sister's in the burbs.  

[Doug1029]

On 11/19/2018 at 4:31 AM, Piney said:

My guess is was a combination of the beginning of the  catastropnic glacial flooding, diseases were forming out of the constantly wet climate which were affecting people and animals and new knappers were getting creative in different areas to hunt smaller game. The people were also separated from each other by the floods. 

As for out West, my knowledge is limited to the Mississippi Eastwards except for some minor  cultural details about other tribes. 

The Missoula Flood broke the Algic languages right in half with Yurok and Wiyot remaining on the West Coast  and Proto-Algonquian forming on the Columbia Plateau. That's a big space in between.  Large mega-fauna probably couldn't get out of the way in time, where the little animals could run like hell. Then the stranded groups had to hunt new critters.

My brain isn't working too well. I had to abandon my lifestyle and I'm at my sister's in the burbs.  

There have been dozens of catastrophic glacial floods in North America.  The Missoula Flood may have occurred more-or-less annually for around 2000 years.  :Lake Agassiz drained and refilled three or four times.  There were also the Arkona Flood, the Algonquin flood down the Ottawa and a catastrophic flood down the Hudson.  A catastrophic flood emerged from beneath the ice sheet in North Dakota.  Lake Monongahela overflowed a low divide and drained southeastward, creating the Ohio River and there was another pro-glacial lake in southern Ohio that probably did the same thing.

And this doesn't count the Kankakee Torrent which was just glacial melt draining through the Kankakee River system.  The gravel bars from this flood are 50 feet above the modern flood plain and involved most of northern Indiana and Illinois.

The draining of Lake Bonneville to become the Great Salt Lake was also catastrophic and apparently occurred during glaical times, but was not, itself, a glacial event.

Though impressive, these floods were intermittent and temporary.  It is difficult to see how they could have resulted in different language groups.

 

These floods must have been awesome.

Doug

[Piney]

20 minutes ago, Doug1o29 said:

Though impressive, these floods were intermittent and temporary.  It is difficult to see how they could have resulted in different language groups.

 

The flood split the group in half. It's 2 halves of the same language family. Not 2 groups. with the flood path between them, and it fits the time Ives Goddard theorized when Proto-Algonquian formed and where. 

I know there were many different lakes and outburst floods. You forgot Lake Hudson and Lake Iroquois

[Piney]

27 minutes ago, Doug1o29 said:

These floods must have been awesome.

I always visualized them when looking for the deposits in the East. The Pennsauken deposits are 500-600 feet deep.

[Doug1029]

4 hours ago, Piney said:

The flood split the group in half. It's 2 halves of the same language family. Not 2 groups. with the flood path between them, and it fits the time Ives Goddard theorized when Proto-Algonquian formed and where. 

I know there were many different lakes and outburst floods. You forgot Lake Hudson and Lake Iroquois

Maybe by wiping out people who lived in the Channeled Scablands, creating an area the size of Washington with nobody living there?  The people to the north could have been mostly isolated by the periodic floods - The Purcell Glacier blocked access to the east and the Pacific was to the west.  They could have crossed the Channeled Scablands in late summer, but it would have been a long walk with nobody to visit en route.  Those river crossings would have been ice cold.  Travel along the Olympics would have been tough.  Canoe along the shore, maybe?

I mentioned Lake Hudson, but you're right about me forgetting Lake Iroquois.

Pensauken?  I'm mid-western.  Please enlighten me.

Doug

[Piney]

12 minutes ago, Doug1o29 said:

I mentioned Lake Hudson, but you're right about me forgetting Lake Iroquois.

I caught Hudson after I posted. 

Pennsauken was Pre-Illinoian. The lower Delaware river is now it's trickle and the Long Island Sound a former section. It was a beast.  Before it Southern New Jersey was a group of extinct volcanic islands which was buried under 500-800 feet of deposits from it. The deposits stretch as far as Virginia. 

  I found out about it after investigating a purported mound which turned out to be a possible volcanic cone from the look of a magnetic anomalies map. 

[Piney]

22 minutes ago, Doug1o29 said:

Maybe by wiping out people who lived in the Channeled Scablands, creating an area the size of Washington with nobody living there? 

Exactly. You took the words from my mouth. 

[Piney]

@Doug1o29   According to genetic studies. All Agonquians ( not Algics) are descendants of just 7 people ( and have several chromosomal disorders because of it). I can visualize those 7 people huddled on the Columbia Plateau with a WTF look on their faces. 

Edited November 21, 2018 by Piney

[Piney]

@lost_shaman

I found it.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/285753124_The_transition_from_Paleoindian_to_Archaic_in_the_middle_Tennessee_valley

[lost_shaman]

7 hours ago, Piney said:

@lost_shaman

I found it.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/285753124_The_transition_from_Paleoindian_to_Archaic_in_the_middle_Tennessee_valley

First thing I note here is that Folsom is absent, the assemblage goes from Clovis to Cumberland with Folsom missing. That said Cumberland dart points seem to have evolved from Folsom technology. With the later Folsom dart points well represented to the West of the Mississippi for example all across Texas and beyond. The former Cumberland dart points as an evolution of Folsom technology seem to have been exclusive to the East of the Mississippi and only later crossed back to the West of the Mississippi as they are only lightly represented West of the Mississippi River valley by a couple of hundred miles along the Mississippi River. 

My impression is that Clovis may have been completely wiped out East of the Mississippi and only later replaced by descendants of Folsom Culture who had been absent long enough to transition to the Cumberland dart point style either directly before crossing East across the Mississippi or sometime much later crossing back to the West of the Mississippi river where the Cumberland dart point then gave way to a newer Technology. Either way, Clovis was clearly present East of the Mississippi River and Folsom is absent in the Tennessee river valley while Cumberland dart points a later adaptation of Folsom technology is again well represented throughout the East from Canada to Florida. 

[Piney]

55 minutes ago, lost_shaman said:

My impression is that Clovis may have been completely wiped out East of the Mississippi and only later replaced by descendants of Folsom Culture who had been absent long enough to transition to the Cumberland dart point style either directly before crossing East across the Mississippi or sometime much later crossing back to the West of the Mississippi river where the Cumberland dart point then gave way to a newer Technology. Either way, Clovis was clearly present East of the Mississippi River and Folsom is absent in the Tennessee river valley while Cumberland dart points a later adaptation of Folsom technology is again well represented throughout the East from Canada to Florida. 

I'm not done reading this one yet, but this paper indicates a overlap in the Northeast.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/20555563.2016.1212178

[lost_shaman]

44 minutes ago, Piney said:

I'm not done reading this one yet, but this paper indicates a overlap in the Northeast.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/20555563.2016.1212178

From the Paper,.. " Our “pre-Clovis” designation for these early occupations highlights these temporal differences, and at present, discourages notions of cultural or genetic linkages between pre-Clovis and Clovis as well as later occupations in the Northeast."

[Piney]

15 minutes ago, lost_shaman said:

From the Paper,.. " Our “pre-Clovis” designation for these early occupations highlights these temporal differences, and at present, discourages notions of cultural or genetic linkages between pre-Clovis and Clovis as well as later occupations in the Northeast."

Need human remains for genetics. I said I still have to read it. 

[Essan]

Just occurred to me that if this impact occurred within the past few tens or even hundreds of thousands of years, there would be a record in the Greenland ice cores and North Atlantic ocean bed mud cores. 

Is there?