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Eldorado

China's fake Sun hits 100 million degrees C

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Eldorado

Chinese nuclear scientists have reached an important milestone in the global quest to harness energy from nuclear fusion, a process that occurs naturally in the sun.

The team of scientists from China's Institute of Plasma Physics announced this week that plasma in their Experimental Advanced Superconducting Tokamak (EAST) — dubbed the "artificial sun" — reached a whopping 100 million degrees Celsius, temperature required to maintain a fusion reaction that produces more power than it takes to run.

To put that in perspective, the temperature at the core of the sun is said to be about 15 million degrees Celsius, making the plasma in China's "artificial sun" more than six times hotter than the original.

Full monty: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-15/china-attempts-to-create-an-artificial-sun/10495536

At the Chinese Academy of Sciences: http://english.cas.cn/newsroom/news/201811/t20181113_201191.shtml

At the Hefei Institutes of Physical Science: http://english.hf.cas.cn/new/news/rn/201811/t20181114_201219.html

EAST- Experimental Advanced Superconducting Tokamak http://english.ipp.cas.cn/rh/east/201205/t20120515_85883.html

At wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experimental_Advanced_Superconducting_Tokamak

Edited by Eldorado
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joc

Do we believe this?  China is known for making far out and untrue claims are they not?  

I'm just going to step out there and say...I don't believe it.  

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XenoFish

So they're trying to build an arc reactor.

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freetoroam
28 minutes ago, joc said:

Do we believe this?  China is known for making far out and untrue claims are they not?  

I'm just going to step out there and say...I don't believe it.  

China - making Fakes

Yeah, its likely.

Edited by freetoroam
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Noteverythingisaconspiracy
47 minutes ago, joc said:

Do we believe this?  China is known for making far out and untrue claims are they not?  

I'm just going to step out there and say...I don't believe it.  

I don't see why we shouldn't believe this ? The Tokamak reactor was invented back in the 50's by soviet scientist Andrei Sakharov, so it is hardly new technology.

Temperatures in the 100 of millions deegrees have been achieved regularly. Sandia National Labs Z-machine have achieved 2 billion degrees.

There is still a long way before we have workable fusion reactors though, as the main problem in fusion research isn't the temperature, it is containing the plasma. It have been compared to trying to contain jellow by using a rubber band, the damned stuff allways find a way to escape. ITER, currently being built in France, will try to adress this with massive electro magnets. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITER (china is part of the ITER programme)

There is an old saying: "Fusion power is just 10 years away and it have been so for 50 years"

Edited by Noteverythingisaconspiracy
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third_eye
34 minutes ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

There is an old saying: "Fusion power is just 10 years away and it have been so for 50 years"

It would have been better if everyone just leave it to the science and keep everything else out of it ...

~

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Noteverythingisaconspiracy
2 minutes ago, third_eye said:

It would have been better if everyone just leave it to the science and keep everything else out of it ...

~

Yep. Give them the money they ask for and let them get on with it.

ITER was delayed for quite a long time, simply because the participating governments couldn't agree on where to build it. :no: 

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Ozymandias

I am no expert on nuclear fusion but have a number of reservations and thoughts:

(1) In thermodynamics there can exist no system that generates more energy than is needed to run it. The claim here, implied or otherwise, seems to be that this fusion reactor will output more energy than it needs to operate it.

(2) I can accept a system that reaches (100 x 10^6)degC (or Kelvin) for a short period of time but how can such a system operate continuously and sustainably over a long period without resulting in damaging heat transfer to its surroundings? 

(3) I can only think that the concentrated heat energy at such high temperatures is being converted to some other form of energy very efficiently - and that contravenes well accepted thermodynamic theory.  

So, I have my doubts about the feasibility of a sustainable fusion reaction system.

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Noteverythingisaconspiracy
1 hour ago, Ozymandias said:

I am no expert on nuclear fusion but have a number of reservations and thoughts:

(1) In thermodynamics there can exist no system that generates more energy than is needed to run it. The claim here, implied or otherwise, seems to be that this fusion reactor will output more energy than it needs to operate it.

As long as there is an outside source of fuel there is no problem with thermodynamics. In a car you use petrol, in a fusion reactor you use deuterium and tritium. Deuterium is found in water and tritium is made from lithium by the neutron flux generated by the reactor. Lithium and deuterium are both easily available and a reactor only need very small amounts to run.

1 hour ago, Ozymandias said:

(2) I can accept a system that reaches (100 x 10^6)degC (or Kelvin) for a short period of time but how can such a system operate continuously and sustainably over a long period without resulting in damaging heat transfer to its surroundings? 

The plasma is contained by electro magnets, so it won't contact the containment vessel. 

Constructing an effective mean of containing the plasma is one of the big issues, but the is no fundamental reason why it shouldn't be possible.

Heat from the reactor will be in the form of high energy neutrons, which will be absorbed by a lithium blanket, acting like a heat exchanger (and making tritium in the process). After that it works like a normal power plant with turbines driving generators.

1 hour ago, Ozymandias said:

(3) I can only think that the concentrated heat energy at such high temperatures is being converted to some other form of energy very efficiently - and that contravenes well accepted thermodynamic theory.  

It is no different from a normal power plant. A fuel is used to generate heat and the heat is converted to mechanical movement by a turbine. Efficiency is expected to be around 40 percent, the rest is waste heat, almost the same efficiency as conventional power plants.

1 hour ago, Ozymandias said:

So, I have my doubts about the feasibility of a sustainable fusion reaction system.

It's fine to have doubts about the feasibility of making it work efficiently, but the is nothing about fusion that is against the laws of physics. The sun have doing it for over 4,5 billion years.

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seanjo

Interesting vid for those that want to know a bit more about Fusion.

 

 

Edited by seanjo
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Ozymandias
1 hour ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

As long as there is an outside source of fuel there is no problem with thermodynamics. In a car you use petrol, in a fusion reactor you use deuterium and tritium. Deuterium is found in water and tritium is made from lithium by the neutron flux generated by the reactor. Lithium and deuterium are both easily available and a reactor only need very small amounts to run.

The plasma is contained by electro magnets, so it won't contact the containment vessel. 

Constructing an effective mean of containing the plasma is one of the big issues, but the is no fundamental reason why it shouldn't be possible.

Heat from the reactor will be in the form of high energy neutrons, which will be absorbed by a lithium blanket, acting like a heat exchanger (and making tritium in the process). After that it works like a normal power plant with turbines driving generators.

It is no different from a normal power plant. A fuel is used to generate heat and the heat is converted to mechanical movement by a turbine. Efficiency is expected to be around 40 percent, the rest is waste heat, almost the same efficiency as conventional power plants.

It's fine to have doubts about the feasibility of making it work efficiently, but the is nothing about fusion that is against the laws of physics. The sun have doing it for over 4,5 billion years.

I know that fusion is not against the laws of physics but as an engineer I very much doubt that a practical working fusion reactor is possible. The physical problems associated with sustained proximity to such enormous temperatures, and the consequent radiated heat energy, is a concern.

At the moment these fusion 'reactors' run for seconds. Imagine one of them running for hours or days. How will radiated heat energy be safely contained within the reactor and not damage its surroundings?

Normal power plants - engines - are supplied with way more energy than they convert/deliver to useful work. The unconverted energy is dumped to its surroundings ('sink') as waste heat energy. Even if these fusion plants convert 40% of their input energy to useful purposes they are dumping 60% to their surroundings as heat. Can these plants and their environs handle this problem? How? 

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Seti42

Even if a group or nation managed to build a working fusion reactor that produced "limitless clean energy", what's to prevent them from charging the rest of us tons of money to access it? Greed is the most powerful force on earth, IMO.

Edited by Seti42
Your forum doesn't understand quotes. I have to keep copy/pasting my comments if I use quotes.

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Waspie_Dwarf
26 minutes ago, Seti42 said:

what's to prevent them from charging the rest of us tons of money to access it?

Basic economics and basic science.

Fusion will not be the only form of energy. As long as there are alternatives you can not over charge or customers will simply go elsewhere.

Also it's not like oil. There is no geographical limitations on where it can be produced. If the profits are high enough it will encourage others to invest in research, leading to other viable, competing fusion reactors, forcing the price down.

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Noteverythingisaconspiracy

 

26 minutes ago, Seti42 said:

Even if a group or nation managed to build a working fusion reactor that produced "limitless clean energy", what's to prevent them from charging the rest of us tons of money to access it? Greed is the most powerful force on earth, IMO.

Somebody supplies electricity and we pay for it. Isn't that how it works allready ?

No one, who have any idea what they are talking about, have even claimed that fusion energy would be free.

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AllPossible

Amazing. 180 million F

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paperdyer

Did the article indicate what type of insulation was used?  Also how big of a disaster would we have with a run-away reaction/meltdown?

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kartikg

How do they measure such high temperatures? Is it through some sort of spectrum analysis? I don't see any sensor lasting in such high temperatures. 

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jbondo

"one step closer to a world with limitless clean energy." LOL! And what giant is going to allow this to happen before every last drop of oil has been squeezed out, used, recycled, used, rinse, repeat until all is gone? Big oil is the most powerful monopoly on the planet. Not a monopoly you say? Well, when a few big companies work together to control the main energy source of the world, it's a monopoly to me. Not to mention, big oil has big auto and others in it's hip pocket.

If not for Elon Musk, EV's would still be a novelty and a waste of time (according to big auto). I'd love to see one of these board meetings at Exon. "How can we get that weasel Musk? He's ruining it for all of us oil guys!"

At this point however, even if Elon Musk had a terrible car accident, or a deadly heart attack, it's far too late to stop. Because he is a billionaire, he couldn't be intimidated and he's also somewhat mad. Actually, if anyone could be accused of being a transplanted ET, it would be Musk. Ever watched him in an interview? The guy is weird! Always monotone and says things that blow your mind, all while never cracking a smile, or showing the least bit of emotion. I remember when he described how he got around the laws prohibiting the sale of flamethrowers and then proceeded to talk about, almost in passing that: "Uhh yeah, we made about $10 million off of those." If you heard him talk about it, you'd be convinced that $10MM was nothing. He's literally surreal and I've never seen anyone like him.

Suffice it to say, IMO, hydrogen is a much better alternative than batteries. Furthermore, there has to be a way to harvest hydrogen directly from that big ball of fire in the sky. Tesla knew things that we'd think were impossible and had he lived another 10 years, we may just have gotten past all this oil nonsense.

I've said it before: We carry around computer/phone/game console/personal assistant/etc...in the palm of our hand and have been for at least 10 years, but at the same time we are still just as dependent on oil today as we were 100 years ago. Something ain't kosher. Conspiracy theory is one thing but, absurdity is another and that's just absurd as far as believably is concerned.

Another thing I have a major problem believing is that we are still dependent on the same old space launch tech as we were in the 50's and 60's. Maybe not as extreme, but again, very hard to believe.

IMO, there is a handful of elites, who control everything and suppress anything that even hints at disrupting (even slightly) their power, profits and stranglehold on the world economy, energy and probably just about everything else.

I never believed all the 9/11 conspiracies, yet there are some aspects of that event that really boggle my mind. I won't get into it, but suffice it to say, I would hope that even as dirty as our gov is, they wouldn't sacrifice hundreds of their own people to carry out a false flag. The very idea that our gov would do such a thing is worse than the actual act itself. There, that was my crazy paragraph.

Tesla believed there was energy all around us, ripe for the taking. I don't doubt that perception in the least. Just imagine if Tesla had had access to computers and equipment available today? Only thing is, in his day, he could still get things out there, but toward the end of his life, the controllers were beginning to clamp down and yes, they did see him as an eminent threat. If he were around today, his technology would be stymied, his patent applications would be rejected, lost, whatever. He'd be labeled a kook, just as many label John Hutchison and Hutchison isn't even close to being on Tesla's level. Yet, he's harassed and called a liar and hoaxer in mainstream media.

OK, that's it and none too soon. Sorry for rambling on, but it's a habit I find hard to break. if you read the whole thing, I appreciate it. Actually, it's fairly short, considering my usual ramblings. Have a great weekend all!

On a final note, if you've never seen this documentary, I highly recommend it. Of course, this is only one side of the issue and as we all know, big auto has been forced to move forward with the tech, against their wishes, so you have to keep that in mind, but still compelling and relevant in understanding the mindset of big oil and big auto. Even one sided, it makes a lot of sense:

Sorry al! I couldn't get it to embed, so here's a link to watch it: Who Killed the Electric Car

 

Edited by jbondo
Added link to video

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kobolds

I think the break through will be that the chinese able to built one cheap . 

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Blizno
On 11/15/2018 at 1:51 PM, Ozymandias said:

Even if these fusion plants convert 40% of their input energy to useful purposes they are dumping 60% to their surroundings as heat. Can these plants and their environs handle this problem? How? 

Fossil Fuel power plants are probably not much more efficient. They dump their waste heat into air or water. Fusion power would replace fossil fuel power so the amount of heat pumped into the environment might not change much.

Fission power plants also dump a huge amount of waste heat, usually into the air. That's why they often have huge cooling towers.

 

As for containing fusion for more than a few moments, that is probably one of the huge problems preventing us from having fusion power. I don't know why it would be impossible to eventually come up with ways to handle the tremendous heat and power though.

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