Is this Atlantis ... at the coast of Spain?

[Kenemet]

12 minutes ago, Piney said:

Zeus ("Dyeus Phter"- Dyaus Pitar, Jupiter, Deva, Daeva,  Dewios, Tiwaz) was the "Divine Ancestor" and a Sun God in the Proto-Indo European panthelon. Not the "creator".  They would be Uranus and/or Gaia. 

The Abrahamic Yahweh/ El Shaddai was a smashed together Fire God and a Mountain God who were both "creators" but nobody's ancestor. As with his current incarnation as "God". 

Plato would not of mixed them up or even knew about Semitic Gods.

I believe Zeus/Jupiter is a thunder god... remember the bolts forged by Hephaestus/Vulcan?  He's more similar to Thor than to Odin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus

In any case, you're correct; although the leader of the Olympian deities he was not all-powerful and he certainly wasn't very moral or an exemplar of justice.

Edited July 17, 2019 by Kenemet

[Hanslune]

6 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

I believe Zeus/Jupiter is a thunder god... remember the bolts forged by Hephaestus/Vulcan?  He's more similar to Thor than to Odin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus

In any case, you're correct; although the leader of the Olympian deities he was not all-powerful and he certainly wasn't very moral or an exemplar of justice.

Yeah the Greek and Roman gods were just like powerful mortals with all the same vices.

[Piney]

14 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

I believe Zeus/Jupiter is a thunder god... remember the bolts forged by Hephaestus/Vulcan?  He's more similar to Thor than to Odin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus

 

That came later when Dyeus Phter was combined with Perkwunos (  Piraw,  Fura (Thor), Perun, Indra, etc.) and his blacksmith aspect was removed. 

I wonder if the various Indo-European breakups started with arguments over who was the god of what. 

[Harte]

28 minutes ago, Piney said:

Our p***ing contest with Iran? 

The fact that it will be a major war with others involved is a "no-brainer". 

I doubt that. Iraq's navy only has a dozen or so boats - and I do mean boats.

Sink them and take out their air defense missile installations all in a day.

Then go home.

Harte

[Piney]

18 minutes ago, Harte said:

Then go home.

We're messing with China's oil supply who's a Russian ally. It wouldn't be that easy

[Piney]

5 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

That’s a lot of textual background for a person illiterate in the language. 

 

Nuances???? Bah!  Who needs them. All is covered by the American English language. 

Ask any American Theosophist. 

Edited July 17, 2019 by Piney
**** Atlantis

[Harte]

21 minutes ago, Piney said:

We're messing with China's oil supply who's a Russian ally. It wouldn't be that easy

Our sanctions are worse for them than the action I described.

Harte

[Harte]

Wait ...

Now birds are talking?

Harte

[Hanslune]

30 minutes ago, Harte said:

Wait ...

Now birds are talking?

Harte

They do and they are a discussing revenge on you for all that chicken frying you've been doing - you damn wingless carnivorous mammal!

This 'cluck gang' is looking for you bustard

 

 

Edited July 17, 2019 by Hanslune

[Jodie.Lynne]

14 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

They do and they are a discussing revenge on you for all that chicken frying you've been doing - you damn wingless carnivorous mammal!

This 'cluck gang' is looking for you bustard

 

 

THAT is a whole lot of future fried chickenses!

[Kenemet]

3 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

That’s a lot of textual background for a person illiterate in the language. 

—Jaylemurph 

I did begin to wonder (re: incompleteness of Critias) what the oldest manuscripts were and where they are found.  Some of them are from the Oxrhynicus area, and I know those are fragmentary.  I got a partial answer on Atlantipedia (much as I am suspicious of that site): http://atlantipedia.ie/samples/chain-of-transmission/  

The note that early commentaries don't talk about Critias cutting off in the middle of a sentence is quite interesting... I'll have to check scholarly sources and see what's available.  Also of interest is that there's some disagreements in translations that sound rather significant.

Again, more research into this is needed (sometime when I'm not so sleepy.)

 

[Kenemet]

25 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

They do and they are a discussing revenge on you for all that chicken frying you've been doing - you damn wingless carnivorous mammal!

This 'cluck gang' is looking for you bustard

 

 

Mised my favorite MurderBird - Gastornis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastornis

[Kenemet]

3 hours ago, Piney said:

Nuances???? Bah!  Who needs them. All is covered by the American English language. 

Ask any American Theosophist. 

Reminds me of the quote (attributed to any number of people, but probably spurious and in reference to courses being offered in Spanish in the late 1800's/early 1900's) : "If English was good enough for Jesus then it's good enough for Texas schoolchildren."  https://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/if_english_was_good_enough_for_jesus_its_good_enough_for_texas/

[Harte]

2 hours ago, Hanslune said:

They do and they are a discussing revenge on you for all that chicken frying you've been doing - you damn wingless carnivorous mammal!

This 'cluck gang' is looking for you bustard

 

 

I'd like to roast a few of them. Won't fit in my frying pans.

Harte

[Peter Cox]

10 hours ago, Harte said:

I'd like to roast a few of them. Won't fit in my frying pans.

Harte

In South Africa they would be perfect for a good Braai. Peri peri basting and all. 

[atalante]

22 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

You presume incorrectly and ignore what Plato said in order to support your own unevidenced interpretation. Either stick with what Plato said or quit pretending to be relevant to the discussion. As the island of Atlantis includes the plain and the island is said to have disappeared into the sea that would include the plain as well leaving nothing left. This isn’t rocket science. 

cormac

Well, docybut's claim would make the Atlantis story plausible; and your counter-claim would make the story impossible.  Sherlock Holmes said we should start by eliminating the impossible.   https://philosiblog.com/2012/05/22/when-you-have-eliminated-the-impossible-whatever-remains-however-improbable-must-be-the-truth/

 

Aside from Sherlock, Plato gave a similar explanation.  Crit 110d,e says that to make earlier (Timaeus) account of the Egyptian priest's story "plausible and true", the suburbs of cities must be accounted properly.

[cormac mac airt]

1 hour ago, atalante said:

Well, docybut's claim would make the Atlantis story plausible; and your counter-claim would make the story impossible.  Sherlock Holmes said we should start by eliminating the impossible.   https://philosiblog.com/2012/05/22/when-you-have-eliminated-the-impossible-whatever-remains-however-improbable-must-be-the-truth/

 

Aside from Sherlock, Plato gave a similar explanation.  Crit 110d,e says that to make earlier (Timaeus) account of the Egyptian priest's story "plausible and true", the suburbs of cities must be accounted properly.

And yet neither one of you are accounting for them properly since you both ignore “what” Plato said which leaves you BOTH irrelevant to the discussion. Congratulations. 

BTW Sherlock Holmes said nothing as he was a fictional character. What’s next, quoting Bugs Bunny? 

cormac

[Kenemet]

4 hours ago, Peter Cox said:

In South Africa they would be perfect for a good Braai. Peri peri basting and all. 

That's THREE words here on UM that I've had to look up this morning.  This place is so educational.

[Peter Cox]

15 hours ago, Kenemet said:

That's THREE words here on UM that I've had to look up this morning.  This place is so educational.

We call it a Braai as BBQ is a flavor of chips  lol 

[atalante]

On 7/16/2019 at 8:35 AM, cormac mac airt said:

What is your evidence of this claim of Elysium being southern Spain? 

cormac

People who are not geographically challenged know that Iberia mainland did not exist (at least in contemporary Greek minds) until ca. 575-550 BC.  The map of homer's world that I posted in # 1106, shows three islands whose names Homer used ca 800 BC  -  Elysium/Underworld; Circe's island Aeaea; and Calypso's island Ogygia   -  three islands which the cartographer has arranged in a "string of pearls" fashion, across the region that Greeks would later call Iberia and/or Spain.

a.  ca 640 BC Tartessos, in southern Spain, was discovered by the Greek named Colaeus, when sailing west along the coast of north Africa.  

 

b.  Herodotus says that "Iberia" was discovered by Phocaeans, seeking a northern route to Tartessos. 

By this "Iberia", Herodotus refers to the two Phocaean settlements at Emporion, Spain, a small distance south of the Pyrenees mountains.  Initially Phocaeans established their Emporion Old Town trading post ca 575 BC; and then their Neapolis (new town), ca 550 BC.  When Persia's empire was conquering the mother city Phocaea, located on the eastern shore of the Aegean sea - many inhabitants of the doomed mother city Phocaea fled west to Phocaea's  colonies, including the rapidly growing colony at Emporia New Town, in Iberia.      

 

c.  Elysium is currently being reconstructed by marketing wizards, as a pleasure park in southern Spain - right where Greek and Roman poets envisioned Elysium.  https://www.facebook.com/ElysiumCityES/

 

 

 

Edited July 19, 2019 by atalante

[jaylemurph]

...you do understand that map is a recreation, right, and not a real map?

I mean, it’s clear you don’t, or it wouldn’t be a keystone in your “hypothesis.”

—Jaylemurph 

[cormac mac airt]

3 minutes ago, atalante said:

People who are not geographically challenged know that Iberia mainland did not exist (at least in contemporary Greek minds) until ca. 575-550 BC.  The map of homer's world that I posted in # 1106, shows three islands People who are not geographically challenged know that Iberia mainland did not exist (in contemporary Greekwhose names Homer used ca 800 BC  -  Elysium/Underworld; Circe's island Aeaea; and Calypso's island Ogygia   -  three islands which the cartographer has arranged in a "string of pearls" fashion, across the region that Greeks would later call Iberia and/or Spain.

a.  ca 640 BC Tartessos, in southern Spain, was discovered by the Greek named Colaeus, when sailing west along the coast of north Africa.  

 

b.  Herodotus says that "Iberia" was discovered by Phocaeans, seeking a northern route to Tartessos. 

By this "Iberia", Herodotus refers to the two Phocaean settlements at Emporion, Spain, a small distance south of the Pyrenees mountains.  Initially Phocaeans established their Emporion Old Town trading post ca 575 BC; and then their Neapolis (new town), ca 550 BC.  When Persia's empire was conquering the mother city Phocaea, located on the eastern shore of the Aegean sea - many inhabitants of the doomed mother city Phocaea fled west to Phocaea's  colonies, including the rapidly growing colony at Emporia New Town, in Iberia.      

 

c.  Elysium is currently being reconstructed by marketing wizards, as a pleasure park in southern Spain - right where Greek and Roman poets envisioned Elysium.  https://www.facebook.com/ElysiumCityES/

People who are not geographically challenged should understand that the maps presuming to be what Herodotus and others meant ARE THE CARTOGRAPHERS INTERPRETATION and NOT evidence of what ancient writers actual said or meant. 

Which means you can’t tell the difference between what ancient writers claim and some later persons interpretation of same. Quite telling actually. 

It should also be noted that there is no reason for ancient Greeks to NOT know Spain was part of the mainland. Again, not rocket science. 

cormac

[atalante]

17 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

...you do understand that map is a recreation, right, and not a real map?

I mean, it’s clear you don’t, or it wouldn’t be a keystone in your “hypothesis.”

—Jaylemurph 

Of course it is a recreation.  All maps are recreations of some mental concept.  Have you ever used a map?

[Piney]

20 minutes ago, atalante said:

Of course it is a recreation.  All maps are recreations of some mental concept.  Have you ever used a map?

 Huh?

Not the USGS ones I use to poke around in the woods or find geological features with. 

If they were "mental concepts" I wouldn't be able to pinpoint a location.

[atalante]

10 minutes ago, Piney said:

 Huh?

Not the USGS ones I use to poke around in the woods or find geological features with. 

If they were "mental concepts" I wouldn't be able to pinpoint a location.

USGS says its maps are based on various mental concepts (i.e. projections)

https://pubs.er.usgs.gov/publication/pp1395

Abstract

After decades of using only one map projection, the Polyconic, for its mapping program, the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS) now uses several of the more common projections for its published maps. For larger scale maps, including topographic quadrangles and the State Base Map Series, conformal projections such as the Transverse Mercator and the Lambert Conformal Conic are used. Equal-area and equidistant projections appear in the National Atlas. Other projections, such as the Miller Cylindrical and the Van der Grinten, are chosen occasionally for convenience, sometimes making use of existing base maps prepared by others. Some projections treat the Earth only as a sphere, others as either ellipsoid or sphere.

The USGS has also conceived and designed several new projections, including the Space Oblique Mercator, the first map projection designed to permit mapping of the Earth continuously from a satellite with low distortion. The mapping of extraterrestrial bodies has resulted in the use of standard projections in completely new settings. Several other projections which have not been used by the USGS are frequently of interest to the cartographic public.

With increased computerization, it is important to realize that rectangular coordinates for all these projections may be mathematically calculated with formulas which would have seemed too complicated in the past, but which now may be programmed routinely, especially if aided by numerical examples. A discussion of appearance, usage, and history is given together with both forward and inverse equations for each projection involved.