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Van Gorp

Is this Atlantis ... at the coast of Spain?

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Trelane
1 hour ago, atalante said:

That is correct.  Before Solon allegedly coined the concept of "Atlantis", Greeks were using the terminology from Hesiod's Works and Days. 

i.e. When Colaeus discovered the strait of Gibralter (and thus also discovered Spain) ca 640 BC, Colaeus and other Greek people were  still using Hesiod's poetic terminology for far-western territory that bordered the "Ocean".  

 

 

Where else in Greek classical literature do you see any mention of the place by any other name?

Edited by Trelane

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atalante
21 hours ago, Trelane said:

Where else in Greek classical literature do you see any mention of the place by any other name?


Cronos's Golden Age persisted in the west, along the shore of the Ocean, according to lines 165-173 of Hesiod's Works and Days.
 
But the rest of the World, under supervision of Zeus, passed through Hesiod's 4 stages of:
Silver Age farming (modern archaeology's neolithic age);
then early Copper Age (archaeology's Chalcolithic Age);
then heroic Bronze Age (archaeology's Bronze Age);
then the Iron Age contemporary with classical society (modern archaeology's Iron Age). 
 
The region modern people call Spain, was called by Hesiod "Islands of the Blessed, along the shore of the Ocean".  Zeus had released Cronos from prison, to supervise this "Blessed" region; but according to Hesiod's lines 165-173, Zeus eventually sent heroes, from the world's Heroic Bronze Age, to settle in Spain's Isles of the Blessed. 
 
 
Hesiod's theme about the Ages of Man continued to be followed followed by Roman authors, and early Christian authors. 
 
These mythological ages are sometimes associated with historical timelines. In the chronology of Saint Jerome, the Golden Age lasts c. 1710 to 1674 BC, the Silver Age 1674 to 1628 BC, the Bronze Age 1628 to 1472 BC, the Heroic Age 1460 to 1103 BC, while Hesiod's Iron Age was considered as still ongoing by Saint Jerome in the fourth century AD.[1]
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jaylemurph

St Jerome was writing several centuries before the Venerable Bede popularized the BC/AD dating convention, so whose calculations are used to render the dates using that system?

This is another weird little aporia in the basic knowledge set of a working, professional Classicist. Are you really a working academic in that field, because I’m reasonably certain you’ve claimed that before, and the evidence for that is really lacking here. 

—Jaylemurph 

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docyabut2

Well its my problem in what to believe:)  was it Egypt`s  Atlantis  of Threa  it was, or as why the earlier Greek writers  placed a rich great civilization it so far in the west ,or was it a place of a rich greater civilization ,Tartessos ?

Plato

  ( They despised everything but virtue, caring little for their present state of life, and thinking lightly of the possession of gold and other property, which seemed only a burden to them; neither were they intoxicated by luxury; nor did wealth deprive them of their self-control; but they were sober, and saw clearly that all these goods are increased by virtue and friendship with one another, whereas by too great regard and respect for them, they are lost and friendship with them)

of which Solon would talk so much in  his poems of virtue.  

Plato

Such was the vast power which the god settled in the lost island of Atlantis; and this he afterwards directed against our land for the following reasons, as tradition tells: For many generations, as long as the divine nature lasted in them, they were obedient to the laws, and well-affectioned towards the god, whose seed they were; for they possessed true and in every way great spirits, uniting gentleness with wisdom in the various chances of life, and in their intercourse with one another. They despised everything but virtue, caring little for their present state of life, and thinking lightly of the possession of gold and other property, which seemed only a burden to them; neither were they intoxicated by luxury; nor did wealth deprive them of their self-control; but they were sober, and saw clearly that all these goods are increased by virtue and friendship with one another, whereas by too great regard and respect for them, they are lost and friendship with them. By such reflections and by the continuance in them of a divine nature, the qualities which we have described grew and increased among them; but when the divine portion began to fade away, and became diluted too often and too much with the mortal admixture, and the human nature got the upper hand, they then, being unable to bear their fortune, behaved unseemly, and to him who had an eye to see grew visibly debased, for they were losing the fairest of their precious gifts; but to those who had no eye to see the true happiness, they appeared glorious and blessed at the very time when they were full of avarice and unrighteous power. Zeus, the god of gods, who rules according to law, and is able to see into such things, perceiving that an honourable race was in a woeful plight, and wanting to inflict punishment on them, that they might be chastened and improve, collected all the gods into their most holy habitation, which, being placed in the centre of the world, beholds all created things. And when he had called them together, he spake as follows-* The rest of the Dialogue of Critias has been lost. 

 

Edited by docyabut2
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Trelane
9 hours ago, atalante said:

Cronos's Golden Age persisted in the west, along the shore of the Ocean, according to lines 165-173 of Hesiod's Works and Days.
 
But the rest of the World, under supervision of Zeus, passed through Hesiod's 4 stages of:
Silver Age farming (modern archaeology's neolithic age);
then early Copper Age (archaeology's Chalcolithic Age);
then heroic Bronze Age (archaeology's Bronze Age);
then the Iron Age contemporary with classical society (modern archaeology's Iron Age). 
 
The region modern people call Spain, was called by Hesiod "Islands of the Blessed, along the shore of the Ocean".  Zeus had released Cronos from prison, to supervise this "Blessed" region; but according to Hesiod's lines 165-173, Zeus eventually sent heroes, from the world's Heroic Bronze Age, to settle in Spain's Isles of the Blessed. 
 
 
Hesiod's theme about the Ages of Man continued to be followed followed by Roman authors, and early Christian authors. 
 
These mythological ages are sometimes associated with historical timelines. In the chronology of Saint Jerome, the Golden Age lasts c. 1710 to 1674 BC, the Silver Age 1674 to 1628 BC, the Bronze Age 1628 to 1472 BC, the Heroic Age 1460 to 1103 BC, while Hesiod's Iron Age was considered as still ongoing by Saint Jerome in the fourth century AD.[1]

Is this Atlantis? Why not just name it Atlantis then if it was such a known quantity?

You mention Zeus and Cronos. You do realize those are fictional characters right?

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Piney

 

34 minutes ago, Trelane said:

You mention Zeus and Cronos. You do realize those are fictional characters right?

Dyeus Pater  ( Zeus/ Jupiter) could possibly be the ancestor of 99 percent of Indo-European/ Indo-Aryan speakers.

He was a deified ancestor.

Cronos on the other hand is "Time" personified and completely fictional.

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MWoo7

preface: not directed at anyone I'm just putting it out there.  LATERZZZZZZZZ

Who's to say fictional or real regarding characters or even places for that matter, wasn't it Plato that wrote everything for or of Socrates?  I mean if some things were not found, notes etc. et cetera-- that philosophy character could have been known only as myth in the future. UPDATE hahahaa ah maybe not a great example as there is so much written about him and his death, okay, how about jesus myth theory or is it ? like a repeating theme through history like ? what is it ? Mithras .. be right back....

Zeitgeist brought it up… about Horus, Mithras, Krishna, Dionysus and other god characters and religious stories that were exactly the same way waaaaay before the jesus character came about.

I'm saying that some characters we thought were myth sometimes turn out to be real, I'm sure there's a list but I can't recall and I'm certainly no expert.

UPDATE::::: additionally, and after thought here... they used to think Indian legend on the west coast of the states was just myth but some of the stories indicated about when the earth shook, lots of water etc. etc. and by giant trees super OLD ! found in the mud at bases of rivers going into the sea, well, they found out Archaeologists whoever that there was MASS WATER THAT CAME INLAND [knocked over a a boatload of ancient giant trees too.  Record of it.  Yep.].

That's just one story ... that was not fake, so, there probably is something to old stories is all I'm saying.

And that's my two bits/bytes gentlemen.

Edited by MWoo7
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Piney
44 minutes ago, MWoo7 said:

UPDATE::::: additionally, and after thought here... they used to think Indian legend on the west coast of the states was just myth but some of the stories indicated about when the earth shook, lots of water etc. etc. and by giant trees super OLD ! found in the mud at bases of rivers going into the sea, well, they found out Archaeologists whoever that there was MASS WATER THAT CAME INLAND [knocked over a a boatload of ancient giant trees too.  Record of it.  Yep.].

Tsunamis. There was a whole village found under the deposits from one, but I forgot the name. 

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MWoo7

THat was it thanks .. Tsunami nope can't recall the village.
Also,
Sorry too late to edit / add ..... I meant  that  ? movie like documovie Zeitgeist which I always thought meant timely spirit but its closer to Geist der Zeiten as noted by various authors long ago... ? Hegel, goooooootah/Goethe maybe Blavatsky certainly ? uh now I forget.. just a second ...eeeeh common .. goethe and there's oh! the Voltaire kid eeh my brain oh well.

Update concerning Geist der Zeiten: some would say like spirit of the times in some books or spirit of the age.

Edited by MWoo7
______________________________ added update.

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Harte
9 hours ago, MWoo7 said:

Zeitgeist brought it up… about Horus, Mithras, Krishna, Dionysus and other god characters and religious stories that were exactly the same way waaaaay before the jesus character came about.

 

SNIP
... that was not fake, so, there probably is something to old stories is all I'm saying.

Except that IS fake.

Harte

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atalante
13 hours ago, Trelane said:

Is this Atlantis? Why not just name it Atlantis then if it was such a known quantity? ...

 

Hesiod lived BEFORE Solon.   Therefore Hesiod could not know whether (or not) Solon was calling it Atlantis.  

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atalante
18 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

St Jerome was writing several centuries before the Venerable Bede popularized the BC/AD dating convention, so whose calculations are used to render the dates using that system?

Regardless of what "yardstick" is used for characterizing dates in the distant past, there will always be some ambiguity.  Point taken.  But an Anno Domini "yardstick" is widely used by modern writers. 

Christian writers before Jerome mostly considered the birthdate for Jesus to be in the year 2 BC, relative to the modern way of expressing dates.  A 2 year ambiguity is trivial, by comparison to the size of date-numbers that are used for characterizing Hesiod's Ages of Man.   

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Pettytalk
6 hours ago, Harte said:

Except that IS fake.

Harte

This kind of skepticism is fake. Because it is based on the belief that other's beliefs are fake. But to be perfectly honest, everyone and everything we see, hear, touch, taste and smell is fake....we are living in the cave of shadows, chained with our heads towards the wall, and all our 5 senses sense only shadows, and not reality. Reality begins when we start to look towards our rear. But first we must break the chains of ignorance. The ignorance that persists with our belief that the shadows we observe is reality. The philosopher/warriors, Socrates guardians of his Republic, represented by Ancient prehistoric Athens' military force, the very ones that defeated Atlantis, are all escaped convicts from the cave, who then returned into the darkness and world of shadows, after seeing the light of reality outside the cave. And that is why such a small force, 20,000 guardians, were able to defeat the million plus Atlantean force. The Guardians were REAL warriors, and the Atlanteans could only see their shadows, and were fighting the shadows the guardians were casting, and not the guardians themselves.

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jaylemurph
3 hours ago, atalante said:

Regardless of what "yardstick" is used for characterizing dates in the distant past, there will always be some ambiguity.  Point taken.  But an Anno Domini "yardstick" is widely used by modern writers. 

Christian writers before Jerome mostly considered the birthdate for Jesus to be in the year 2 BC, relative to the modern way of expressing dates.  A 2 year ambiguity is trivial, by comparison to the size of date-numbers that are used for characterizing Hesiod's Ages of Man.   

Not what I asked. Don’t pretend that’s an answer. That’d be a, “No, I don’t know who did the math.”

A fine demonstration of research skills. 

—Jaylemurph 

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