Is this Atlantis ... at the coast of Spain?

[+Pettytalk]

16 minutes ago, Harte said:

Yeah...

Except Kenemet was talking about the Greeks, not the Egyptians, as even the portion of her post you copied clearly says.

Besides, I don't think many here would believe you have anything to teach Kenemet about Egypt.

Harte

Come on, have a heart, as they say that one may learn even from an idiot. Not that Atalante is an idiot...far from it. Atalante is presenting Egyptian information in relation to Plato's Atlantis, just to make a point about his championing a real Atlantis in Spain's Andulicia area. Kenemet, being a champion for an allegorical only Atlantis, has never looked at or studied Egypt from that perspective. Therefore I see Atalante's effort as not one of wanting to show Kenemet something she does not know about Egypt, but only as corroboration for his preference of an Atlantis of his liking.

[atalante]

On 4/28/2019 at 3:24 PM, Kenemet said:

An interesting thing to explore briefly is "what did the Greeks mean by Libya?"  ....

Not being a scholar of Greek or Greek history, I don't know.  But that would be one thing to explore... did they really mean geography or did they mean "some weird foreign place"?

Kenemet,

Herodotus pointed out (4.45.3-4) that the names for all three continents (Libya, Asia, and Europe) had been selected from women in Greek mythology. 

 

A little bit of digging in Greek myths turns up the following details about those 3 "continental" women:

 

Libya's mythical Greek ancestors were said to have left Argos (Greece), migrated to Egypt where they founded the capital city of Lower Egypt (Memphis), and also positioned the Libya woman at the western edge of the Nile delta region.  Libya's people brought their god Poseidon with them to Egypt.  Consequently, anyone who used the name Libya to stand for a continent also implied that Greeks had a chronological priority, for the right to supersede a latecomer competitor (Carthage's merchants) in the "Libya" continent. 

 

The mythical titaness Asia had descendants who migrated away from Greece, went across the Aegean sea, founded the cities named Ilium and Troy, and gave one of their names to the Dardanelles strait.  Thus descendants of the mythical Asia (through Dardanus, Ilus, Tros and Aeneas) had a moral claim to continue ruling over lands on the eastern side of the Aegean sea.   The approximate geographical extent of this Asia province, for Romans, is mapped in red color at  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia_%28Roman_province%29

 

The mythical Europa migrated to Crete where she intermarried with the Greek god Zeus.  Europa's descendants were supporters of the Greek god Zeus, and thus deserved to rule over the continent of Europe - beginning from the southeast corner of Europe, and also radiating across much of the rest of Europe.   

 

 

Edited May 3, 2019 by atalante

[Kenemet]

On 5/1/2019 at 6:29 PM, Pettytalk said:

Come on, have a heart, as they say that one may learn even from an idiot. Not that Atalante is an idiot...far from it. Atalante is presenting Egyptian information in relation to Plato's Atlantis, just to make a point about his championing a real Atlantis in Spain's Andulicia area. Kenemet, being a champion for an allegorical only Atlantis, has never looked at or studied Egypt from that perspective. Therefore I see Atalante's effort as not one of wanting to show Kenemet something she does not know about Egypt, but only as corroboration for his preference of an Atlantis of his liking.

You might be surprised.....

[Kenemet]

On 5/1/2019 at 9:53 AM, atalante said:

Kenemet,

You suggested a "brief discussion" about the people and place named Libya.  But you do not seem to have adequate understanding of Egypt's interactions with the Libu people, and why the Libu only occupied a small strip of land along the shore of the Mediterranean sea. 

So it's your belief that the Egyptologists who taught the courses for my degree in Egyptology never mentioned Libya?  That's a peculiar notion.  My professors did, in fact, discuss them and their relations with Egypt and how they were portrayed in art and literature.

And, as Harte said, since I already knew what the Egyptian notion was, I wanted Greek knowledge.  After all, Plato and Socrates were Greek and not Egyptian.

 

 

[+Pettytalk]

28 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

You might be surprised.....

I might be surprised only if you misunderstood what I stated to Harte. I was not denying you anything you know....far from it. You have stated, without a doubt, that to you Plato's Atlantis was never a real place, and just a made up story by Plato to stage some of his philosophical points, like many others here also believe. Purely allegorical. Therefore in your formal studies of Egypt, both as student and teacher, it would have been very unlikely that you would have, seriously, searched for evidence of the story of Atlantis in the Egyptian historical records, both on papyrus and on stone. That was the gist of it. Plato's reference to the Egyptian priests at Saiis, as being the source for the knowledge of Atlantis and prehistoric Athens, and brought back to Athens by Solon, is entirely fictitious. And therefore any genuine Egyptian expert, like yourself, knows that no such priestly records exist in the land of the Pharaohs. Nor likely to be ever found in the future, regardless of what the sleepy Edgar Cayce claimed. 

However, it's more likely that with your reply of  "You might be surprised...." you were merely referring to my attempt at comedy with this line, "one may learn even from an idiot." In which case it was a good comeback on it.

Either way, I just wanted to make certain that you understood me properly.

[Kenemet]

2 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

Therefore in your formal studies of Egypt, both as student and teacher, it would have been very unlikely that you would have, seriously, searched for evidence of the story of Atlantis in the Egyptian historical records, both on papyrus and on stone. .

You might be surprised...

[+Pettytalk]

38 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

You might be surprised...

You mean that, at some point in time, you have considered the story of Atlantis as possibility having a incy-wincy of truth in it? Or did you search only to be able to be certain of there being none?

Tell me, please, as I hate surprises.

[docyabut2]

Hi all  the problem with this tale, how can one had measured  Atlantis 11 500 years ago, before it sank   , when  measurements never existed then, or could  have been recorded., so it had to be a earlier culture.  

[Kenemet]

19 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

You mean that, at some point in time, you have considered the story of Atlantis as possibility having a incy-wincy of truth in it? Or did you search only to be able to be certain of there being none?

Tell me, please, as I hate surprises.

Yes, at one time I thought it was plausible and I followed both Cayce's teachings and the Theosophists, Donnelley, Von Danniken, and so forth.  Read as much as I could find on the subject and on mystical topics as well as arcane teachings and books on psychic powers.  I read VERY quickly (when I was young, "speed reading" was a thing because of Kennedy, so I learned to read as quickly as he did.  I'd read around 200 books per year...

....so you can assume that I didn't read just one or two things on it.

I'm an army brat and moved frequently.  By the time we left the military base for a new assignment I would have read through most of the base library, including books that didn't interest me that much.

Not that I remember it all, mind you, but I did read quite a bit.

...and if you ask, you will find that most of the skeptics here did have a time when they believed and read as widely as they could.

Edited May 4, 2019 by Kenemet

[Piney]

2 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

...and if you ask, you will find that most of the skeptics here did have a time when they believed and read as widely as they could.

I fell for the ancient alien-Atlantis crap hook, line and sinker as a teen and actually believed my mother's "indigo child" stuff and you know what???.........

.

[docyabut2]

Get out of the Atlantis of  Cayce's teachings, trust me been there of a beginning of Atlantis:)  

[docyabut2]

3 minutes ago, Piney said:

I fell for the ancient alien-Atlantis crap hook, line and sinker as a teen and actually believed my mother's "indigo child" stuff and you know what???.........

.

get out of it like I learned the beginning  of Atlantis:) "indigo children are all of a myth

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigo_children

 

[Piney]

2 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

indigo children are all of a myth

I learned that as soon as a military physical at 17 showed I had two heart defects one kidney and the psych said I probably had autism.  .

[Harte]

Probably all indigo defects.

Harte

[jaylemurph]

2 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

Hi all  the problem with this tale, how can one had measured  Atlantis 11 500 years ago, before it sank   , when  measurements never existed then, or could  have been recorded., so it had to be a earlier culture.  

...what makes you think they didn’t have measurement? As far as I know, there is no culture without some system of measurement.

—Jaylemurph  

[Harte]

1 minute ago, jaylemurph said:

...what makes you think they didn’t have measurement? As far as I know, there is no culture without some system of measurement.

—Jaylemurph  

Well, we know for sure they had an Atlas. Hard to have an Atlas without measurement.

Harte

[Kenemet]

28 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

...what makes you think they didn’t have measurement? As far as I know, there is no culture without some system of measurement.

—Jaylemurph  

He had a rather interesting point, though -- before the age of literacy (and given the ever-changing nature of political boundaries), how could you record the size of a place to compare later?

[jaylemurph]

32 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

He had a rather interesting point, though -- before the age of literacy (and given the ever-changing nature of political boundaries), how could you record the size of a place to compare later?

You could talk about what encompasses the area — the watershed of a river, width of a valley. As I recall, most pre-modern folk measured not in terms of land as much as by people(s) —I took the lands of Sakai, from the Amu to the Sir Darya, and of the Baldakhs as far as the Oxus. 

—Jaylemurph 

[+Pettytalk]

Plato is using boundary stones, Horos, to delineate sizes and locations. The pillars of Heracles are two very large stones, sort of, as we have two promontories. One being the Rock of Gibraltar and the other pillar is one of the three disputed peaks on the African side. Besides horos, there are a few "markers" no one could identify, back then. His description for delineating prehistoric Attica is something that will corroborate the whole story as true, since finding "prehistoric" Athens is vital for the truth. And Jay will not be of any help here, since it's "pre" history. 

Now the country was inhabited in those days by various classes of citizens;-there were artisans, and there were husbandmen, and there was also a warrior class originally set apart by divine men. The latter dwelt by themselves, and had all things suitable for nurture and education; neither had any of them anything of their own, but they regarded all that they had as common property; nor did they claim to receive of the other citizens anything more than their necessary food. And they practised all the pursuits which we yesterday described as those of our imaginary guardians. Concerning the country the Egyptian priests said what is not only probable but manifestly true, that the boundaries were in those days fixed by the Isthmus, and that in the direction of the continent they extended as far as the heights of Cithaeron and Parnes; the boundary line came down in the direction of the sea, having the district of Oropus on the right, and with the river Asopus as the limit on the left. The land was the best in the world, and was therefore able in those days to support a vast army, raised from the surrounding people. Even the remnant of Attica which now exists may compare with any region in the world for the variety and excellence of its fruits and the suitableness of its pastures to every sort of animal, which proves what I am saying; but in those days the country was fair as now and yielded far more abundant produce. How shall I establish my words? and what part of it can be truly called a remnant of the land that then was? The whole country is only a long promontory extending far into the sea away from the rest of the continent, while the surrounding basin of the sea is everywhere deep in the neighbourhood of the shore. Many great deluges have taken place during the nine thousand years, for that is the number of years which have elapsed since the time of which I am speaking; and during all this time and through so many changes, there has never been any considerable accumulation of the soil coming down from the mountains, as in other places, but the earth has fallen away all round and sunk out of sight. The consequence is, that in comparison of what then was, there are remaining only the bones of the wasted body, as they may be called, as in the case of small islands, all the richer and softer parts of the soil having fallen away, and the mere skeleton of the land being left. But in the primitive state of the country, its mountains were high hills covered with soil, and the plains, as they are termed by us, of Phelleus were full of rich earth, and there was abundance of wood in the mountains. Of this last the traces still remain, for although some of the mountains now only afford sustenance to bees, not so very long ago there were still to be seen roofs of timber cut from trees growing there, which were of a size sufficient to cover the largest houses; and there were many other high trees, cultivated by man and bearing abundance of food for cattle. Moreover, the land reaped the benefit of the annual rainfall, not as now losing the water which flows off the bare earth into the sea, but, having an abundant supply in all places, and receiving it into herself and treasuring it up in the close clay soil, it let off into the hollows the streams which it absorbed from the heights, providing everywhere abundant fountains and rivers, of which there may still be observed sacred memorials in places where fountains once existed; and this proves the truth of what I am saying.

[+Pettytalk]

12 hours ago, Kenemet said:

Yes, at one time I thought it was plausible and I followed both Cayce's teachings and the Theosophists, Donnelley, Von Danniken, and so forth.  Read as much as I could find on the subject and on mystical topics as well as arcane teachings and books on psychic powers.  I read VERY quickly (when I was young, "speed reading" was a thing because of Kennedy, so I learned to read as quickly as he did.  I'd read around 200 books per year...

....so you can assume that I didn't read just one or two things on it.

I'm an army brat and moved frequently.  By the time we left the military base for a new assignment I would have read through most of the base library, including books that didn't interest me that much.

Not that I remember it all, mind you, but I did read quite a bit.

...and if you ask, you will find that most of the skeptics here did have a time when they believed and read as widely as they could.

I don't doubt your veracious appetite for books, and we have a name for that. I was around military bases myself, and I read a book or two from those libraries. And this revelation of yours did not surprise me. What's a surprise, even though I detest them, as I stated, is that most of the skeptics here were once on the other side, entertaining the possibility of reality with Plato's Atlantis? I find that hard to believe, more than a surprise. Do you mean to include Harte, Jay, Hunslue, Sweede, and all the rest of the regulars that ridicule anyone that currently entertains their own previous gullibility?

I was under the impression that it would be rather obvious, from the get go, that nearly all true academics would never fall for it. Surely anyone understanding Plato, even a little, would have arrived at the conclusion that the story of Atlantis is purely fictitious, and understood to have been a creation of the man himself, Plato, for use as an allegory on his "good and evil" philosophical views. I guess that wishful thinking is inherent even in the most intelligent of creatures. The issue is that we all get wishful at one time or another. Today's skeptics are yesterday's fools, and today's fools are tomorrow's skeptics, If I can take your bold statement as fact.

And still I'm surprised that among all these highly intelligent, highly schooled, and who have intensely, and widely looked into the matter, there is no one here that has gotten a glimpse at the truth of Atlantis.

 

 

[atalante]

14 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

Hi all  the problem with this tale, how can one had measured  Atlantis 11 500 years ago, before it sank   , when  measurements never existed then, or could  have been recorded., so it had to be a earlier culture.  

The "9000 years" detail in the Atlantis story was only a round number estimate - not a precise engineering measurement using atomic clocks.  Plato was providing that "9000 years" info to represent a "beginning of activity" at the Atlantis homeland, which was then reworked by labors of many succeeding generations of Atlantean rulers.  Egypt described a similar concept about Zep Tepi on the walls of an Edfu temple.

[jaylemurph]

5 hours ago, atalante said:

The "9000 years" detail in the Atlantis story was only a round number estimate - not a precise engineering measurement using atomic clocks.  Plato was providing that "9000 years" info to represent a "beginning of activity" at the Atlantis homeland, which was then reworked by labors of many succeeding generations of Atlantean rulers.  Egypt described a similar concept about Zep Tepi on the walls of an Edfu temple.

...or, alternately, he was using it in the same way English uses “once upon a time,” Arabic uses “forty years” or hacks use, “a long time ago in a galaxy far away.”

—Jaylemurph 

[Harte]

7 hours ago, atalante said:

The "9000 years" detail in the Atlantis story was only a round number estimate - not a precise engineering measurement using atomic clocks.  Plato was providing that "9000 years" info to represent a "beginning of activity" at the Atlantis homeland, which was then reworked by labors of many succeeding generations of Atlantean rulers.  Egypt described a similar concept about Zep Tepi on the walls of an Edfu temple.

It's hard to find any translations from the Horus Temple in Edfu. I think the Zep Tepi thing is a one off.

The temple is Ptolemaic. Building texts on the walls may contain some things that date much further back, but the Zep Tepi concept and the myth of Hathor visiting Horus in Edfu from Dendera are examples of beliefs that don't appear any earlier than Edfu, unless I'm mistaken.

Also, the similarities between the Edfu myths and Atlantis that the fringe purports aren't really very similar at all.

Harte

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

23 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

Hi all  the problem with this tale, how can one had measured  Atlantis 11 500 years ago, before it sank   , when  measurements never existed then, or could  have been recorded., so it had to be a earlier culture.  

That’s not precisely true. Exact scientific standard measures didn’t exist. But “it’s about the size of Crete” measures existed. Folks knew how long it took to ride across Crete, therefore anything smaller than that they could infer would take less time to cross, and anything larger, more time. Equally, they could do the same rudimentary measures with sailing around something. 

Even if we boil everything else down to allegory and metaphor, “Atlantis was bloody huge” is what we can take away from Plato’s description. Thera was not bloody huge. And surely, if Plato meant “the culture that existed on Thera before it blew up”, as they knew where Thera was he’d have said so. 

[+Pettytalk]

3 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

...or, alternately, he was using it in the same way English uses “once upon a time,” Arabic uses “forty years” or hacks use, “a long time ago in a galaxy far away.”

—Jaylemurph 

I totally disagree. It is clear to me that Plato is indicating a very precise date in the past, as it relates to subsiding landmass. It's not sinking that Plato is alluding to, but merely an occurrence in time which can be historically, geologically, and climatically proven. But it's not an Atlantis in 9,000 BC per se. But rather, only a date to serve as and additional clue to Atlantis' true location. It's rather obvious that any large landmass sinking down into the deep ocean cannot be responsible for raising mud to the surface. For a large object sinking to the bottom of a shallow pond with lots of catfish in the murky and muddy waters, it is expected to see mud rise to the top, making the water even murkier. Plato made certain to associate the subsiding with the mud, and additionally, the term, Ocean, was not used by him in the Attican Greek original. It was Pelagos. The Atlantic pelagos, rather than Atlantic okeanos. Pelagos would be a description of a large area of water, but less than an ocean. For example, both the Gulf coast, and the US Eastern Seaboard would be both considered pelagos in the Atlantic ocean.  Seas, pelagos, withing a much larger area of water, an ocean, the Atlantic ocean.

Therefore when Plato wrote of the subsiding of Atlantis somewhere in the Atlantic ocean, he assured that by calling it not ocean, but a sea within the ocean, he was further localizing it, rather than leaving it in the middle of nowhere in a big ocean. And the date, 9,600 BC, is pointing to the event that was responsible for the inundation of large areas of that seacoast he wants to further localize for us. The final stage of the North American ice sheet melt. The end of the last ice age. The raising of mud shoals (sand bars) is also associated with the ice sheet, as the very heavy weight of the ice is being relieved on the land mass underneath as it melts, causing the continental shelf to slowly rise, thereby raising the level of the sand shoals. The mud shoals, called by Plato.

However this is only the tip of the iceberg, as they say. Because to see the entire picture for a true Atlantis, we need to raise the other 98 percent of the iceberg to see it. It's embedded in the texts with a code that only with the eyes of a child you will see it.

Well, I said, and you would agree (would you not?) that what has been
said about the State and the government is not a mere dream, and although
difficult not impossible, but only possible in the way which has been supposed;
that is to say, when the true philosopher kings are born in a State, one or more
of them, despising the honours of this present world which they deem mean and
worthless, esteeming above all things right and the honour that springs from
right, and regarding justice as the greatest and most necessary of all things,
whose ministers they are, and whose principles will be exalted by them when
they set in order their own city?
How will they proceed?
They will begin by sending out into the country all the inhabitants of the
city who are more than ten years old, and will take possession of their children,
who will be unaffected by the habits of their parents;.......

But When Jesus saw this, He was indignant and told them, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not hinder them! For the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15Truly I tell you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”