Is this Atlantis ... at the coast of Spain?

[+Pettytalk]

1 hour ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

That’s not precisely true. Exact scientific standard measures didn’t exist. But “it’s about the size of Crete” measures existed. Folks knew how long it took to ride across Crete, therefore anything smaller than that they could infer would take less time to cross, and anything larger, more time. Equally, they could do the same rudimentary measures with sailing around something. 

Even if we boil everything else down to allegory and metaphor, “Atlantis was bloody huge” is what we can take away from Plato’s description. Thera was not bloody huge. And surely, if Plato meant “the culture that existed on Thera before it blew up”, as they knew where Thera was he’d have said so. 

What you are stating about Crete and Thera makes sense, perfect statements in reference to assessing an approximate size. This is because we can even see them today, besides walking on them and also sailing around. I personally have done both.

However, who has seen Atlantis? And can we point out those who have walked there, or sailed to or from, or around it?  Can you?

That Plato made out Atlantis to be very huge is a fact, as facts go in his writings. And therefore, here too I agree.

However, to seek fodder for our brains, why did Plato resort to such a small scale of 50, and almost 50 stadia for such a bloody huge place? I tell you there is more there than just mere measurements. No mere dramatic use of numbers in that use of factual numbers.  They state the facts exactly, numerically, but those figures do not represent length measurements, by no means. Once the whole picture is gazed upon, the details all fall into your lap, or into place, if place fits better.

You may add another feather to one of your many hats, with my compliments.

[Piney]

1 hour ago, Pettytalk said:

both the Gulf coast, and the US Eastern Seaboard would be both considered pelagos in the Atlantic ocean.  Seas, pelagos, withing a much larger area of water, an ocean, the Atlantic ocean.

And once again you point towards a theory that Atlantis was off of the U.S. Eastern Seaboard.

It wasn't Edgar. 

[jaylemurph]

2 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

I totally disagree. 

...is there any question as to how much your opinion is worth here?

—Jaylemurph 

[Lord Harry]

1 hour ago, Pettytalk said:

What you are stating about Crete and Thera makes sense, perfect statements in reference to assessing an approximate size. This is because we can even see them today, besides walking on them and also sailing around. I personally have done both.

However, who has seen Atlantis? And can we point out those who have walked there, or sailed to or from, or around it?  Can you?

That Plato made out Atlantis to be very huge is a fact, as facts go in his writings. And therefore, here too I agree.

However, to seek fodder for our brains, why did Plato resort to such a small scale of 50, and almost 50 stadia for such a bloody huge place? I tell you there is more there than just mere measurements. No mere dramatic use of numbers in that use of factual numbers.  They state the facts exactly, numerically, but those figures do not represent length measurements, by no means. Once the whole picture is gazed upon, the details all fall into your lap, or into place, if place fits better.

You may add another feather to one of your many hats, with my compliments.

For crying out loud man, you're still claiming Atlantis was real?  Even after it has been conclusively proven to be a moral allegory? Several times on this very thread in fact.

You sir are more insufferable than Cladking!

Edited May 5, 2019 by Lord Harry

[jaylemurph]

13 minutes ago, Lord Harry said:

You sir are more insufferable than Cladking!

....clad has the decency to disappear from these boards for months at a time, till people summon him from the aether. 

—Jaylemurph 

[Piney]

16 minutes ago, Lord Harry said:

You sir are more insufferable than Cladking!

Except he's completely beating around the bush about his theory. Which is more annoying. 

[John Bastien]

Don't put down the Clad! he provided me hundreds of hours of pure entertainment as well as a few dead brain cells.

[John Bastien]

This is brain damage! Please give.

[John Bastien]

[Piney]

44 minutes ago, John Bastien said:

This is brain damage! Please give.

You can't fix "stupid"......

[jmccr8]

7 hours ago, John Bastien said:

This is brain damage! Please give.

Hi John 

Is that a before or after picture?

jmccr8

[atalante]

15 hours ago, Harte said:

It's hard to find any translations from the Horus Temple in Edfu. I think the Zep Tepi thing is a one off.

The temple is Ptolemaic. Building texts on the walls may contain some things that date much further back, but the Zep Tepi concept and the myth of Hathor visiting Horus in Edfu from Dendera are examples of beliefs that don't appear any earlier than Edfu, unless I'm mistaken.

Also, the similarities between the Edfu myths and Atlantis that the fringe purports aren't really very similar at all.

Harte

The building texts at Edfu were reworking Hermopolitan creation mythology, but with variations.  i.e. Primordial life began in a paradise swampy environment, where plenty of water was available; eventually some kind of catastrophe/revolution occurred; then human fabrication with tools began.  

But Horus the Elder (Horus of Edfu) and Neith-Athena were blended into the legend, as it was presented at the Hellenistic temple at Edfu.  Horus the Elder (representing Upper Egypt) had been worshipped at Edfu since very primitive times.  Neith-Athena had represented Lower Egypt since very primitive times.  

Edited May 5, 2019 by atalante

[+Pettytalk]

11 hours ago, Piney said:

And once again you point towards a theory that Atlantis was off of the U.S. Eastern Seaboard.

It wasn't Edgar. 

I merely pointed to the real meaning of the date, 9600 BC. And I gave no such cardinal direction. Where do you read that I said Atlantis "is" off of the Easter Seaboard? I stated and implied that Plato went on from the pillars of Heracles to localize Atlantis further, as to where we are to look.

And for your information, I once dawned the uniform to keep you rear safe too. Therefore start kissing mine, as you asked of me to kiss that other ass. And let this be the end of it. No more kissing for anybody that does not deserve it. This is a forum for discussion and not one for kissing, anyway. A little humor is refreshing here, even on a personal basis, as the more intelligent exchanges show. But vulgar and childish personal insults should be left out in the cold. A heated discussion is one thing, but to insult rudely in the heat of the moment due to disagreement is simply idiotic. And stop condemning those that shoot in self-defense only. And I'm not a Conservative. I'm a Liberal.

Perhaps you need to read things more attentively, as you are misconstruing much of what I write.

But I see that the thread is really on-topic, and I would not want to be singled out again as the one derailing it. But I see more coming out of the woodwork. More ammunition for your side, I suppose. I was of the opinion that we were all independents here, and all parts of this whole forum.

I apologize to the moderators for my actions, or rather, reactions. And if I deserve punishment, well, I'll take it in stride, as the case warrants.

 

[+Pettytalk]

12 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

...is there any question as to how much your opinion is worth here?

—Jaylemurph 

No comment!

[+Pettytalk]

12 hours ago, Lord Harry said:

For crying out loud man, you're still claiming Atlantis was real?  Even after it has been conclusively proven to be a moral allegory? Several times on this very thread in fact.

You sir are more insufferable than Cladking!

No comment!

[Piney]

6 minutes ago, Pettytalk said:

I merely pointed to the real meaning of the date, 9600 BC. And I gave no such cardinal direction. Where do you read that I said Atlantis "is" off of the Easter Seaboard? I stated and implied that Plato went on from the pillars of Heracles to localize Atlantis further, as to where we are to look.

Ah, you been beating around the bush about the East Coast in several threads. 

7 minutes ago, Pettytalk said:

 I once dawned the uniform to keep you rear safe too.

 Last time I checked it was SAS and Gurkha troopers who did that. But the ones I ran around with generally knew I could handle myself. 

 

17 minutes ago, Pettytalk said:

And I'm not a Conservative. I'm a Liberal.

Then you don't want to be hobknobbing with Ronald. His space alien friend, Clarinol takes "Neocon" to a whole new level.

 

 

[Kenemet]

On 5/3/2019 at 9:36 PM, jaylemurph said:

You could talk about what encompasses the area — the watershed of a river, width of a valley. As I recall, most pre-modern folk measured not in terms of land as much as by people(s) —I took the lands of Sakai, from the Amu to the Sir Darya, and of the Baldakhs as far as the Oxus. 

—Jaylemurph 

True.  Which does bring an interesting point that Plato didn't bother to compare it to lands between rivers, but countries that he knew. 

I'd go further with this, but I'm not at my best today, having worked as an election judge yesterday (a very long and physical 16 hour day.)

[Kenemet]

16 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

Therefore when Plato wrote of the subsiding of Atlantis somewhere in the Atlantic ocean, he assured that by calling it not ocean, but a sea within the ocean, he was further localizing it, rather than leaving it in the middle of nowhere in a big ocean. And the date, 9,600 BC, is pointing to the event that was responsible for the inundation of large areas of that seacoast he wants to further localize for us. The final stage of the North American ice sheet melt. The end of the last ice age. The raising of mud shoals (sand bars) is also associated with the ice sheet, as the very heavy weight of the ice is being relieved on the land mass underneath as it melts, causing the continental shelf to slowly rise, thereby raising the level of the sand shoals. The mud shoals, called by Plato.

At the end of the last ice age, the waters rose at the rate of one meter per century (not a typo or misstatement: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/12/101201120605.htm) That converts to 3 centimeters a year or just over an inch per year.  Even snails could easily flee that kind of sea level rise.

We've known that the sea level rise was not abrupt for quite some time, just as we've known that the Great Extinction of that time period did not take place overnight or even over the course of a few days or weeks (it took 3,000-4,000 years).  It's not something new.

[atalante]

19 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

....... Plato made certain to associate the subsiding with the mud, and additionally, the term, Ocean, was not used by him in the Attican Greek original. It was Pelagos. The Atlantic pelagos, rather than Atlantic okeanos. Pelagos would be a description of a large area of water, but less than an ocean. For example, both the Gulf coast, and the US Eastern Seaboard would be both considered pelagos in the Atlantic ocean.  Seas, pelagos, withing a much larger area of water, an ocean, the Atlantic ocean.

Therefore when Plato wrote of the subsiding of Atlantis somewhere in the Atlantic ocean, he assured that by calling it not ocean, but a sea within the ocean, he was further localizing it, rather than leaving it in the middle of nowhere in a big ocean.

....

Pettytalk,

The above statement is mostly correct; and many people overlook its significance for locating Plato's Atlantis. 

But additional refinement can make your point more clearly.  Plato's word "Pontos" in 25a was understood as "outer sea" in the classical era; thus the word Pontos in 25a is equivalent to the modern concept of an Ocean.   

After plugging this distinction into your statement above, here is the result.   

Therefore when Plato wrote of the subsiding of Atlantis somewhere in the Atlantic [pelagos], he assured that by calling it not [Pontos], but a sea within the [outer Pontos], he was further localizing it, rather than leaving it in the middle of nowhere in a big [Pontos = modern Ocean].

 

[jaylemurph]

6 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

No comment!

Let’s hope you continue to take advantage of this new-found brevity. 

—Jaylemurph 

[+Pettytalk]

1 hour ago, jaylemurph said:

Let’s hope you continue to take advantage of this new-found brevity. 

—Jaylemurph 

Hope is a fool's wish!

[Lord Harry]

7 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

. And I'm not a Conservative. I'm a Liberal.

 

 

Kinda figured you were a liberal considering your glaring tendency to resort to lies and disinformation. 

Edited May 5, 2019 by Lord Harry

[+Pettytalk]

1 hour ago, atalante said:

Pettytalk,

The above statement is mostly correct; and many people overlook its significance for locating Plato's Atlantis. 

But additional refinement can make your point more clearly.  Plato's word "Pontos" in 25a was understood as "outer sea" in the classical era; thus the word Pontos in 25a is equivalent to the modern concept of an Ocean.   

After plugging this distinction into your statement above, here is the result.   

Therefore when Plato wrote of the subsiding of Atlantis somewhere in the Atlantic [pelagos], he assured that by calling it not [Pontos], but a sea within the [outer Pontos], he was further localizing it, rather than leaving it in the middle of nowhere in a big [Pontos = modern Ocean].

 

Atalante, I appreciate your support. We understand each other when it comes to Plato on Atlantis. However, I would not quite go as far as making Pontos equal the modern ocean. Yes, it also equals sea, as also does thalassa,  However, the word Okeanos, ocean, was well known even before Plato, and okeanos defined that outer sea, the one they believed as encircling all land. Therefore Pontos cannot be taken as you put it. Not for my use, at least.

As I believe you also may know, Atlantipedia has a reference to George Sarantitis and his hypothesis on Atlantis. Although I do not hold that hypothesis as being Plato's true Atlantis for many reasons, just as I reject all other hypotheses, Sarantitis has done a good thing, as he commissioned a modern translation of part of the Timaeus (part dealing with Atlantis) and the entire Critias. There one can get a better understanding of these terms we are mentioning. 

But you better not align yourself with me here on this forum, as you are bound to suffer additional consequences from the many here that do not look upon me favorably. And the term, favorably, is a great understatement, if you ask any of those here who "admire" me. At least you are a scholar, and champion a reasonable Atlantis hypothesis. And although an incorrect one, for lack of better knowledge, still, in the eyes of the commoners one that is in the realm of plausibility. I'm not even a vaccinated licensed dog around here. I'm just a rabid animal that also has developed fear of Plato's water.  I can read the writing on the wall, the one on which Plato wrote. I tell you, we are near the sinking of Atlantis.

 

[jaylemurph]

1 hour ago, Pettytalk said:

Hope is a fool's wish!

I trust your knowledge of the source. 

—Jaylemurph 

[+Pettytalk]

5 hours ago, Kenemet said:

At the end of the last ice age, the waters rose at the rate of one meter per century (not a typo or misstatement: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/12/101201120605.htm) That converts to 3 centimeters a year or just over an inch per year.  Even snails could easily flee that kind of sea level rise.

We've known that the sea level rise was not abrupt for quite some time, just as we've known that the Great Extinction of that time period did not take place overnight or even over the course of a few days or weeks (it took 3,000-4,000 years).  It's not something new.

Something old, something new, something borrowed, and something blue. Oh how I wish you understood me. Let's marry your knowledge with mine, and we'll live happily ever after. After you do something really new, like truly understanding me. I'm slowly breaking the seals Plato put on his writing, of which this 9,600 BC date is of the first. And here you are blowing the trumpet at me before I have opened the seventh seal. I've been all in on climate change for a while, and I have had a look at that kind of data, besides recalling something about it from my high school natural science class. It's all about the end of the world that is coming soon, an inch at a time. And I'm familiar with snails and their pace. They make easy prey, as I look at them also from a culinary standpoint, as a delicacy...escargot! But I also include sea snails on my hunting menu whenever I'm near sea water.