Is this Atlantis ... at the coast of Spain?

[Golden Duck]

3 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

No, that's sexy!

Isn't she the first black woman to kiss a white man on TV?

[Piney]

14 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

No, that's sexy!

Actually when I first saw it, it was awesome in my eyes. It was literally the future.

My mother and father had to sneak around and this farmer I worked for use to get death threats about his Black girlfriend. 

[Harte]

We're all pink on the inside

Harte

[Piney]

2 minutes ago, Harte said:

We're all pink on the inside

Harte

And full of yucky things like blood, bile, reproductive type stuff, half digested food, pee and poop. 

[Peter Cox]

4 hours ago, Piney said:

And full of yucky things like blood, bile, reproductive type stuff, half digested food, pee and poop. 

In in the case of the male human much like a submarine they both full of "sea-men"....  

[Alchopwn]

5 hours ago, Harte said:

We're all pink on the inside

Harte

You also need to skin people to get there first.  Not a great look.  Fine during late October, but it doesn't play well for the rest of the year.  I hope people are wise enough to hate each other for the vicious, sleazy disgusting and vile content of their character rather than something as superficial as the color of their skin.

Edited July 22, 2019 by Alchopwn

[Jodie.Lynne]

6 hours ago, Piney said:

And full of yucky things like blood, bile, reproductive type stuff, half digested food, pee and poop. 

And they say romance is dead....  

[atalante]

On 7/20/2019 at 8:16 AM, Kenemet said:

Well, they certainly knew it was part of the mainland, as did the Phoenicians.  Extensive Bronze Age trade routes show that they knew they sailed around one edge of it and they weren't sailing around an island continent:

Kenemet,

Thank you for helping cormac give an answer.  When cormac drinks caffeine, he can only post polemical rhetoric.  

 

Unfortunately, both Homer and Hesiod had (incorrectly) envisioned that a freshwater Okean river surrounded the entire continent.  Obviously, the Greeks in that era had NOT reached the "saltwater" that actually surrounds the continent.   Hesiod Theogony 285-300 said that Heracles had to cross the "okean" to reach Erythia island, where Heracles stole the cattle of Geryon; then Heracles drove his stolen cattle across a ford in the "okean" (i.e. the Rhone river in France was Hesiod's ford) to return to Europe. 

 

So no, the Greeks in the time of Homer and Hesiod had no first-hand knowledge that the place we now call Spain was part of the mainland.  Greeks in Homer's era only had a name for the "western sunset-red island" (Erythia), based on rumors that were passed on by Phoenicians before the stories reached Greeks.  (i.e.  Homer's Erythia was in a large "estuary" of fresh water, but not in a continent-circling bundle of fresh water.)  Greek logographers did not reach a consensus about Erythia's proper location until ca. 475 BC, in the time of Pherecydes.  http://eujournal.org/index.php/esj/article/viewFile/5078/4850

 

 

 

In this post, I will only address one of the flaws in your Phoenician trade-route map, however it is a major flaw; it explains why Crete and/or Phoenicia was able to reach Cadiz Bay before Egypt did.

 

The early southern trade route, for long range sailing to Cadiz Bay, needed to have "different paths" (not a single trade path) for out-going and returning travel.  If travel started from Egypt, westward sea travel along the African coastline was quite hard, because a strong sea-current flows from west to east along that coastline.  (This is why the Greek adventurer Colaeus (ca 640 BC) made such a truly great accomplishment when he tried to follow the North-African coastline westward to Cadiz Bay, against the prevailing current.)  The following quote explains the two different routes that were needed to trade with southern Spain.  

 

quote from:  http://www.tolos.de/Tartessos1.E.html

To cross the whole Mediterranean Sea required not only big sea experience, it was also necessary , to have a complete system of orientation. At day it was the observation of the land, which was known, in the night allowed the Pole Star and the knowledge of firmament the crossing.

To go from [Crete or] Phoenicia to the West, it was not possible to use the southern route along the coast of Africa, because there is a constant current against. The best way was to go to Cyprus, then near to the coast of Asia Minor, to the Ionian Islands, further on to Sicily, the Balears, to the eastern coast of the Iberian Peninsula. To reach the straight of Gibraltar, the ships had to go to land, and [wait] sometimes for several days; That mainly in times, when the wind came from the West. [Rather,] it was better to wait for a soft wind from the East which led them to Gadir.

The way back was easier and without great difficulties. One could follow the African coast and use the currents of the sea. The western winds of the summer helped additionally at the voyage to Tyrus.

These natural conditions are a proof for the fact, that the eastern shores of Kanaan , Egypt and Phoenicia were easier and earlier to reach from the West, as in opposite direction. For the voyage from East to West required, as described here, a high developed art of shipping, and with that a high level of civilization.

[cormac mac airt]

1 hour ago, atalante said:

Kenemet,

Thank you for helping cormac give an answer.  When cormac drinks caffeine, he can only post polemical rhetoric.  

 

Unfortunately, both Homer and Hesiod had (incorrectly) envisioned that a freshwater Okean river surrounded the entire continent.  Obviously, the Greeks in that era had NOT reached the "saltwater" that actually surrounds the continent.   Hesiod Theogony 285-300 said that Heracles had to cross the "okean" to reach Erythia island, where Heracles stole the cattle of Geryon; then Heracles drove his stolen cattle across a ford in the "okean" (i.e. the Rhone river in France was Hesiod's ford) to return to Europe. 

 

So no, the Greeks in the time of Homer and Hesiod had no first-hand knowledge that the place we now call Spain was part of the mainland.  Greeks in Homer's era only had a name for the "western sunset-red island" (Erythia), based on rumors that were passed on by Phoenicians before the stories reached Greeks.  (i.e.  Homer's Erythia was in a large "estuary" of fresh water, but not in a continent-circling bundle of fresh water.)  Greek logographers did not reach a consensus about Erythia's proper location until ca. 475 BC, in the time of Pherecydes.  http://eujournal.org/index.php/esj/article/viewFile/5078/4850

 

 

Two points: 

1)  I don't drink caffeine. I drink decaf-Earl Grey and bottled water. I DO tend to take exception to people who make things up however. 

2)  Convenient how you attempt to reinterpret what Homer (who may not have even been one individual) and Hesiod may or may not have known but apparently either don't know or purposely ignore what Herodotus said about Greeks in the Atlantic, to whit: 

Quote

But after they had been away for longer than the agreed time, and Corobius had no provisions left, a Samian ship sailing for Egypt, whose captain was Colaeus, was driven off her course to Platea, where the Samians heard the whole story from Corobius and left him provisions for a year;

[2] they then put out to sea from the island and would have sailed to Egypt, but an easterly wind drove them from their course, and did not abate until they had passed through the Pillars of Heracles and came providentially to Tartessus.

[3] Now this was at that time an untapped1 market; hence, the Samians, of all the Greeks whom we know with certainty, brought back from it the greatest profit on their wares except Sostratus of Aegina, son of Laodamas; no one could compete with him

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126%3Abook%3D4%3Achapter%3D152%3Asection%3D

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126%3Abook%3D4%3Achapter%3D152%3Asection%3D

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126%3Abook%3D4%3Achapter%3D152%3Asection%3D3

As to Colaeus: 

Quote

In this expansion of trade the activity of Eastern Greeks was
particularly noticeable.10 As well as Rhodians, traders from the big
islands of Samos and Chios and from the coastal cities of Phocaea and
Miletus, all advantageously sited at termini of the cross-Aegean sailing
routes and as way stations on the voyage from Rhodes to the Hellespont,
joined the Corinthians and islanders. It was a Samian, Colaeus (below,
p. 456), who opened the trade in metals from Spain c. 640 B.C., and the
new trading regions of Egypt and the Black Sea were developed mainly
by Ionians acting primarily from commercial motives. Egypt permitted
Greeks to settle at Naucratis only for purposes of trade and Herodotus
characterizes the Black Sea settlements as emporia, trading centres
(iv.17.1, 20.1, 24, 108).

The Cambridge Ancient History - Volume 4  (2008)

Sailing outside the PoH/SoG, even if just to the point of the Guadalquivir, and NOT finding evidence that Spain is an island doesn't remotely mean that the Greeks thought it was. Nice try though.

cormac

[jaylemurph]

...and there were still people following the coast of Spain all the way around to Cornwall for tin. Had been for centuries before even Homer. 

What faux-scholar Atlante either doesn’t know or is deliberately holding back is that his map posted above is based on a periplus of Hecataeus*, a remaining fragment of which work confirms Greek knowledge of an island beyond Gaul (Britain) where tin is mined. The map Kenemet posted confirms the coastal route all around Spain. They knew it wasn’t an island. 

*Said map is from a French 19th Century edition of Homer that explicitly says the map is based on Hecataeus. I guess Atlante saw what he wanted in Google Image Search and was too lazy to do even basic research. 

You know, the way real scholars do. 

—Jaylemurph 

[+Pettytalk]

37 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

You know, the way real scholars do. 

Real scholars don't go hanging around these kind of forums telling others they are real scholars. Especially when it's all hearsay. Just to make a point. As if Herodotus is considered a reliable source and witness by real scholars. Real history scholars have known to label Herodotus as the father of lies. Since when is hearsay such a scholarly tool?

[Piney]

39 minutes ago, Pettytalk said:

Real scholars don't go hanging around these kind of forums telling others they are real scholars.

How do you know? 

39 minutes ago, Pettytalk said:

Real history scholars have known to label Herodotus as the father of lies.

Are you sure your not a reincarnation of him? 

Archaeology later proved he wasn't such a liar in some cases

39 minutes ago, Pettytalk said:

Since when is hearsay such a scholarly tool?

Is that what your doing applying Atlantis to 21st Century America?  

[Mellon Man]

1 hour ago, Pettytalk said:

Real scholars don't go hanging around these kind of forums telling others they are real scholars. Especially when it's all hearsay. Just to make a point. As if Herodotus is considered a reliable source and witness by real scholars. Real history scholars have known to label Herodotus as the father of lies. Since when is hearsay such a scholarly tool?

Do you know who actually coined the term 'father of lies', with respect to Herodotus? It was not a modern scholar.

Many are indeed skeptical of Herodotus' work. But that is mainly due to his sourcing and his fascination of attributing real historical figures with mythical deeds and legends. 

Edited July 22, 2019 by Mellon Man

[Harte]

11 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

You also need to skin people to get there first.

Not necessarily.

Harte

[jaylemurph]

4 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

Real scholars don't go hanging around these kind of forums telling others they are real scholars. Especially when it's all hearsay. Just to make a point. As if Herodotus is considered a reliable source and witness by real scholars. Real history scholars have known to label Herodotus as the father of lies. Since when is hearsay such a scholarly tool?

You’re not even a pretend scholar, so why are you weighing in with your opinions on the matter, as if they had professional value? You might as well opine on the use of single-point perspective in Hellenistic painting. 

Or are you a reincarnation of such a painter, too? It gets hard to keep your various lies straight. 

—Jaylemurph 

Edited July 22, 2019 by jaylemurph

[+Pettytalk]

8 hours ago, Mellon Man said:

Do you know who actually coined the term 'father of lies', with respect to Herodotus? It was not a modern scholar.

Many are indeed skeptical of Herodotus' work. But that is mainly due to his sourcing and his fascination of attributing real historical figures with mythical deeds and legends. 

This is a private matter between a chickpea admirer and myself. And therefore you do not perceive the inherent scope of it. It was not meant for outsourcing, in other words.

But not to seem ungrateful for your kind tender of information, I can tell you that I know nothing, and I don't feel like googling at this time. But do tell me, please. I'm always eager to learn, and that is why I come here, to freely learn from professional scholars, my gods. They are so cordially willing to demonstrate their skills, that one need not even ask. How thankful am I for such a trove of wealth of information? Only the gods know, I say. Are you perhaps one yourself, my good man? Or rather, my Mellon man.

[+Pettytalk]

6 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

You’re not even a pretend scholar, so why are you weighing in with your opinions on the matter, as if they had professional value? You might as well opine on the use of single-point perspective in Hellenistic painting. 

Or are you a reincarnation of such a painter, too? It gets hard to keep your various lies straight. 

—Jaylemurph 

Hi Jaylemurph,

Such a low blow.....Do you have to knock me so low.... so as, I cannot even pretend now? Therefore you do not deem me worthy to put forth my opinion in this matter?

Are you a professional painter too, or just an art critic, as well? Get over it my dear Jay, reincarnation is a reality which some don't see. We all have been many things and many persons, both great and not so great. We all have been professionals, at one time or another, and so were you. Kings and paupers we all have been, and Queens too.

To tell you the truth, or a lie to some, since it does not matter whether you believe it or not. I do seem to have vague recollections of also having been a well noted painter around the Renaissance period. I may need to be hypnotized though, if I'm to get a better picture of this other life. Because I only keep getting these vague, dark and light images blending into surreal shapes forming lifelike images, which are emanating from canvases lying on the floor, along with drawings of the human anatomy, and many other sketches of various objects, such as flying things, funny zigzagging stairs leading nowhere, etc.

I'll bet that soon I may get more language tests, and asked to write it backwards, on top of it.

Just in case you are not a professional in the real arts, let me give you another hint.

 

 

[Peter Cox]

46 minutes ago, Pettytalk said:

Hi Jaylemurph,

Such a low blow.....Do you have to knock me so low.... so as, I cannot even pretend now? Therefore you do not deem me worthy to put forth my opinion in this matter?

Are you a professional painter too, or just an art critic, as well? Get over it my dear Jay, reincarnation is a reality which some don't see. We all have been many things and many persons, both great and not so great. We all have been professionals, at one time or another, and so were you. Kings and paupers we all have been, and Queens too.

To tell you the truth, or a lie to some, since it does not matter whether you believe it or not. I do seem to have vague recollections of also having been a well noted painter around the Renaissance period. I may need to be hypnotized though, if I'm to get a better picture of this other life. Because I only keep getting these vague, dark and light images blending into surreal shapes forming lifelike images, which are emanating from canvases lying on the floor, along with drawings of the human anatomy, and many other sketches of various objects, such as flying things, funny zigzagging stairs leading nowhere, etc.

I'll bet that soon I may get more language tests, and asked to write it backwards, on top of it.

Just in case you are not a professional in the real arts, let me give you another hint.

 

 

Prove it PT.... Dont preach it prove it. 

[Mellon Man]

2 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

This is a private matter between a chickpea admirer and myself. And therefore you do not perceive the inherent scope of it. It was not meant for outsourcing, in other words.

But not to seem ungrateful for your kind tender of information, I can tell you that I know nothing, and I don't feel like googling at this time. But do tell me, please. I'm always eager to learn, and that is why I come here, to freely learn from professional scholars, my gods. They are so cordially willing to demonstrate their skills, that one need not even ask. How thankful am I for such a trove of wealth of information? Only the gods know, I say. Are you perhaps one yourself, my good man? Or rather, my Mellon man.

I will choose to ignore the snarky and sarcastic tone and inform you it was Plutarch, who coined the term in his 'On the Malice of Herodotus'. 

[jmccr8]

Plato + Jesus = Platesus root word for platypus? Platypus = sea cow - water = buffalo = mammoth = elephant = Atlamerica

jmccr8

Edited July 23, 2019 by jmccr8
spulling

[atalante]

21 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

Two points: 

1)  I don't drink caffeine. I drink decaf-Earl Grey and bottled water. I DO tend to take exception to people who make things up however. 

2)  Convenient how you attempt to reinterpret what Homer (who may not have even been one individual) and Hesiod may or may not have known but apparently either don't know or purposely ignore what Herodotus said about Greeks in the Atlantic, to whit: 

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126%3Abook%3D4%3Achapter%3D152%3Asection%3D

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126%3Abook%3D4%3Achapter%3D152%3Asection%3D

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126%3Abook%3D4%3Achapter%3D152%3Asection%3D3

As to Colaeus: 

The Cambridge Ancient History - Volume 4  (2008)

Sailing outside the PoH/SoG, even if just to the point of the Guadalquivir, and NOT finding evidence that Spain is an island doesn't remotely mean that the Greeks thought it was. Nice try though.

cormac

cormac,

I prefer Good Earth tea myself, rather than Earl Grey. 

 

I did mention that Colaeus story recently.  

You omitted some of the questionable things Herodotus actually wrote in his other passages about this far western region.  For example:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arganthonios

King Arganthonios ruled Tartessia for 80 years (from about 625 BC to 545 BC) and lived to be 120 years old. This idea of great age and length of reign may result from a succession of kings using the same name or title. Herodotus says that Arganthonios warmly welcomed the first Greeks to reach Iberia, a ship carrying Phocaeans, and urged them fruitlessly to settle in Iberia. Hearing that the Medes were becoming a dominant force in the neighbourhood of the Phocaeans, he gave the latter money to build a defensive wall about their town. Herodotus comments that "he must have given with a bountiful hand, for the town is many furlongs in circuit".

 

 

And then there is the monster Geryon, whom Herodotus said lived at Gadeira (presumably a.k.a. Tartessos) 

Herodotus, Histories 4. 8. 1  :
"Herakles, driving the cattle of Geryones, came to this land [Skythia (Scythia)], which was then desolate, but is now inhabited by the Skythians. Geryones lived west of the Pontos (Pontus), settled in the island called by the Greeks Erytheia, on the shore of Okeanos (Oceanus) near Gadeira, outside the pillars of Herakles."

 

 

quote from:  https://www.persee.fr/doc/antiq_0770-2817_1987_num_56_1_2211
HERODOTUS ON THE FAR WEST 
 

From Herodotus' text we deduce that Kolaios the Samian accidentally, and thereafter the Phocaeans, were the first among the Greeks to have contacts with Tartessos, which was destroyed by the Carthaginians, who afterwards recruited mercenaries in the Iberian Peninsula. ....Another feature is the inclusion of mythic elements in the narrative behind which there is a historical reality like Arganthonios and Geryon. They represent the process in which myth is transformed to emerge as history. In Herodotus' references there are economic indications but not economic structures in a modem sense. He saw the Iberian Peninsula as a very rich country,

and especially the zone of Tartessos, with which he was mainly concerned. Herodotus' picture of Spain reflects the vision of the early Greek explorers and colonists. He is mainly interested in narrating facts. What is the place of the Iberian Peninsula in Herodotus' work ?  Doubtless he did not intend to write a logos concerning Spain, which he had not visited and which was located very far away from his center of interest ; but, at the same time, it is obvious that he was attracted by Tartessos; a man of such an universal curiosity could not neglect this remote place in his historical work.

[+Pettytalk]

7 hours ago, Mellon Man said:

I will choose to ignore the snarky and sarcastic tone and inform you it was Plutarch, who coined the term in his 'On the Malice of Herodotus'. 

We all can google nowadays, why do I need you to tell me that? I was aware of that long ago, anyway. Plutarch was not bad at fibbing either. But it may have been, Thucydides, as some hint, because it's hard to tell today, of those things of long ago. Perhaps Thucy was being a little jealous...professionally.

 

[+Pettytalk]

6 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Plato + Jesus = Platesus root word for platypus? Platypus = sea cow - water = buffalo = mammoth = elephant = Atlamerica

jmccr8

Hi jmccr8,

Is this considered chiding? How old did you say you were?

 

[cormac mac airt]

27 minutes ago, atalante said:

cormac,

I prefer Good Earth tea myself, rather than Earl Grey. 

 

I did mention that Colaeus story recently.  

You omitted some of the questionable things Herodotus actually wrote in his other passages about this far western region.  For example:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arganthonios

King Arganthonios ruled Tartessia for 80 years (from about 625 BC to 545 BC) and lived to be 120 years old. This idea of great age and length of reign may result from a succession of kings using the same name or title. Herodotus says that Arganthonios warmly welcomed the first Greeks to reach Iberia, a ship carrying Phocaeans, and urged them fruitlessly to settle in Iberia. Hearing that the Medes were becoming a dominant force in the neighbourhood of the Phocaeans, he gave the latter money to build a defensive wall about their town. Herodotus comments that "he must have given with a bountiful hand, for the town is many furlongs in circuit".

 

 

And then there is the monster Geryon, whom Herodotus said lived at Gadeira (presumably a.k.a. Tartessos) 

Herodotus, Histories 4. 8. 1  :
"Herakles, driving the cattle of Geryones, came to this land [Skythia (Scythia)], which was then desolate, but is now inhabited by the Skythians. Geryones lived west of the Pontos (Pontus), settled in the island called by the Greeks Erytheia, on the shore of Okeanos (Oceanus) near Gadeira, outside the pillars of Herakles."

 

 

quote from:  https://www.persee.fr/doc/antiq_0770-2817_1987_num_56_1_2211
HERODOTUS ON THE FAR WEST 
 

From Herodotus' text we deduce that Kolaios the Samian accidentally, and thereafter the Phocaeans, were the first among the Greeks to have contacts with Tartessos, which was destroyed by the Carthaginians, who afterwards recruited mercenaries in the Iberian Peninsula. ....Another feature is the inclusion of mythic elements in the narrative behind which there is a historical reality like Arganthonios and Geryon. They represent the process in which myth is transformed to emerge as history. In Herodotus' references there are economic indications but not economic structures in a modem sense. He saw the Iberian Peninsula as a very rich country,

and especially the zone of Tartessos, with which he was mainly concerned. Herodotus' picture of Spain reflects the vision of the early Greek explorers and colonists. He is mainly interested in narrating facts. What is the place of the Iberian Peninsula in Herodotus' work ?  Doubtless he did not intend to write a logos concerning Spain, which he had not visited and which was located very far away from his center of interest ; but, at the same time, it is obvious that he was attracted by Tartessos; a man of such an universal curiosity could not neglect this remote place in his historical work.

Of course Herodotus said some questionable things. That doesn't make Homer, who may not have even existed to begin with or if he did may have been more than one person, totally reliable. THAT'S the point. And it STILL doesn't support your conclusion that the Greeks didn't know Spain wasn't an island. 

cormac

[jmccr8]

1 hour ago, Pettytalk said:

Hi jmccr8,

Is this considered chiding? How old did you say you were?

 

Hi Pettytalk'

No, it's alpha-numerical calculations based on the information that you gave

jmccr8