Is this Atlantis ... at the coast of Spain?

[+Pettytalk]

4 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

What's amazing is the number of Atlantidiots who only ever read the two (one, really) pieces by Plato that refer directly to Atlantis and then try to pass themselves off as experts on what Plato meant.

--Jaylemurph 

Now, if anyone really knew what Plato meant then that would be worth discussing. Possibly, if there is a center piece to Plato's writings, where the main theme and bottom line could be ascertained with any certainty, then just what allegory, if any, relating to Atlantis would surface. Obviously the assumed allegory of the story where the good guys win over the bad ones does not float, since the good also perish along with the bad. The Athenians were swallowed by the earth, and the Atlantians were swallowed by the sea.

She was pre-eminent in courage and military skill, and was the leader of the Hellenes. And when the rest fell off from her, being compelled to stand alone, after having undergone the very extremity of danger, she defeated and triumphed over the invaders, and preserved from slavery those who were not yet subjugated, and generously liberated all the rest of us who dwell within the pillars. But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea.

[+Pettytalk]

18 minutes ago, Harte said:

Please point out where anyone has been beaten down for merely proposing some kind of reality to Plato's story.

No, people get beat down when they propose ridiculous things about Plato's story while ignoring the large majority of what Plato said.

I would agree that this is exactly what most Atlantis proponents on this forum do - and constantly.

Harte

That is exactly what I was pointing out. By being "beaten down" I was referring to the logical and scientific arguments that are used to beat down unfounded claims and the speculative nature of any hypothesis pointing out a location for Atlantis dating back thousands of years. And I have always pointed out that it's all or nothing, when it comes to Atlantis. But the biggest problem for all Atlantis seekers is the timeline.

[jaylemurph]

5 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

Now, if anyone really knew what Plato meant then that would be worth discussing. Possibly, if there is a center piece to Plato's writings, where the main theme and bottom line could be ascertained with any certainty, then just what allegory, if any, relating to Atlantis would surface. Obviously the assumed allegory of the story where the good guys win over the bad ones does not float, since the good also perish along with the bad. The Athenians were swallowed by the earth, and the Atlantians were swallowed by the sea.

She was pre-eminent in courage and military skill, and was the leader of the Hellenes. And when the rest fell off from her, being compelled to stand alone, after having undergone the very extremity of danger, she defeated and triumphed over the invaders, and preserved from slavery those who were not yet subjugated, and generously liberated all the rest of us who dwell within the pillars. But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea.

I’m charmed by your underlying premise: “If I don’t know something, no one does.” 

There are plenty of Classicists and philosophy grad students who have more than enough knowledge of not just Plato, but Aristotle, Socrates, Heraclitus, etc. to be able to talk much more effectively about what Plato meant. And all of them, universally, understand the allegory that explicitly at work in the Atkantis dialogue. 

Much like poster Cladking, your argument against people better educated than you boils down to “it’s dark because my eyes are closed.” No serious person would waste their time arguing against such self-evident folly, nor will I. 

—Jaylemurph 

[Polar]

On 3/12/2019 at 7:52 PM, jaylemurph said:

Looks like she's suffering from Dantas' Disease -- you post so much crap, you don't remember it all, and wind up posting material that disproves itself.

I think she needs to take a break from posting, or maybe we all need to take a break from responding to her, so she can calm down and figure out what she believes for more than 45 seconds at a time.

--Jaylemurph 

Here is some more disease:

https://a7lan7is.blogspot.com/

Mario Dantas dos Reis 

 

[Polar]

bully¹

/ˈbʊli/

verb

gerund or present participle: bullying

1. seek to harm, intimidate, or coerce (someone perceived as vulnerable).

   "her 11- year-old son has been constantly bullied at school"

   synonyms:

   persecute, oppress, tyrannize, torment, browbeat, intimidate, cow, coerce, strong-arm, subjugate, domineer;  informalpush around/about, play the heavy with "the other children used to bully him" coerce, pressure, pressurize, bring pressure to bear on, use pressure on, put pressure on, constrain, lean on, press, push; force, compel, oblige, put under an obligation; hound, harass, nag, harry, badger, goad, prod, pester

[Polar]

Is this Atlantis ... at the coast of Spain?

[esoteric_toad]

46 minutes ago, Polar said:

Is this Atlantis ... at the coast of Spain?

I am not up on the whole Atlantis thing, I had always assumed it didn't exist except as an allegory. 

THIS though! It explains everything! See the ocean rose up and destroyed Atlantis by covering it. It was pushed further north and west from the Pillars of Hercules and then it rose from the floor of the Atlantic only to have all the water that was covering it freeze!!!!

There you have it, mystery solved!

EDITED- Holy Carp! I didn't see the link....someone already did put this forth..................simply amazing....

Someone more creative than me could surely expound on this idea, write a book and possibly make some money off of it....I am not very good at that level of BS'ing though.

 

Edited March 28, 2019 by esoteric_toad

[Hanslune]

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/atlantis-found-yet-again-this-time-at-mt-girnar-in-india

 

Atlantis in India.................................Oh my!

 

This will not do at all. If India has an Atlantis that means Pakistan will also need one  - I wonder where we could plop one down?

Edited March 28, 2019 by Hanslune

[Piney]

2 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

 I wonder where we could plop one down?

Newark Earthworks. That way Rupert can play golf. 

[Piney]

2 hours ago, Hanslune said:

Atlantis in India.................................Oh my!

 

Quote

 

he became interested in Atlantis after receiving a supernatural vision of a lost Ice Age civilization.

Now where have I read this before? 

[jaylemurph]

4 hours ago, Polar said:

Here is some more disease:

https://a7lan7is.blogspot.com/

Mario Dantas dos Reis 

 

I forgot, what with your constant name changes, you were Mario “Don’t Know What I’m Posting” Dantas. I should have recognized the whiny tone and cries of bully.

—Jaylemurph 

[atalante]

22 hours ago, Hanslune said:

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/atlantis-found-yet-again-this-time-at-mt-girnar-in-india

 

Atlantis in India.................................Oh my!

 

This will not do at all. If India has an Atlantis that means Pakistan will also need one  - I wonder where we could plop one down?

The geography of Atlantis does not fit India for a simple reason, India does not touch Cadiz, Spain - which Critias said was ruled by Atlantean prince Eumelus.  Atlantis should be plopped down near Spain.  

[+Pettytalk]

On 3/27/2019 at 10:41 PM, jaylemurph said:

I’m charmed by your underlying premise: “If I don’t know something, no one does.” 

There are plenty of Classicists and philosophy grad students who have more than enough knowledge of not just Plato, but Aristotle, Socrates, Heraclitus, etc. to be able to talk much more effectively about what Plato meant. And all of them, universally, understand the allegory that explicitly at work in the Atkantis dialogue. 

Much like poster Cladking, your argument against people better educated than you boils down to “it’s dark because my eyes are closed.” No serious person would waste their time arguing against such self-evident folly, nor will I. 

—Jaylemurph 

My dear Jay, since I'm being beaten down at chess by those grad students of this game, I may as well take it from you when it comes to the game of finding Atlantis. But I'm at least glad that with my inferior education I was able to charm a well educated person with my premise ..why that's you, of course my boy! But would you be so kind as to provide a little entertainment for me too? Why don't you charm me with your own premise on what Plato was really trying to tell the world with his writings? Or was discussing the nature of the soul just Socrates'/Plato's folly? This would not only charm me, but would really make me happy too. And is not "happiness" the theme at the center of attention of Plato's Republic? And is not the Republic the precursor and main reason for the generation of the two dialogues relating to Atlantis, the Timaeus and Critias? 

But let me tell you that I'm of like mind with Cebes, when it comes to being charmed by anyone. For instance, by Socrates, as Plato related it in the Phaedo.  Following in italics I'm citing out of sequence for my argument's sake, which is also for your soul's sake, since you present yourself on this site as a lover of learning.

Surely the proof which you desire has been already furnished. Still I suspect that you and Simmias would be glad to probe the argument further. Like children, you are haunted with a fear that when the soul leaves the body,
the wind may really blow her away and scatter her; especially if a man should happen to die in a great storm and not when the sky is calm. Cebes answered with a smile: Then, Socrates, you must argue us out of our fears–and yet, strictly speaking, they are not our fears, but there is a child within us to whom death is a sort of hobgoblin; him too we must persuade not to be afraid when he is alone in the dark. Socrates said: Let the voice of the charmer be applied daily until you have charmed away the fear. And where shall we find a good charmer of our fears, Socrates, when you are gone?

Even among them some are happier than others; and the happiest both in themselves and their place of abode are those who have practised the civil and social virtues which are called temperance and justice, and are acquired by habit and attention without philosophy and mind.

Why are they the happiest?
Because they may be expected to pass into some gentle, social nature which is like their own, such as that of bees or ants, or even back again into the form of man, and just and moderate men spring from them.

That is not impossible.
But he who is a philosopher or lover of learning, and is entirely pure at departing, is alone permitted to reach the gods. And this is the reason, Simmias and Cebes, why the true votaries of philosophy abstain from all fleshly lusts, and endure and refuse to give themselves up to them-not because they fear poverty or the ruin of their families, like the lovers of money, and the world in general; nor like the lovers of power and honor, because they dread the dishonor or disgrace of evil deeds......

 

[Hanslune]

1 hour ago, atalante said:

The geography of Atlantis does not fit India for a simple reason, India does not touch Cadiz, Spain - which Critias said was ruled by Atlantean prince Eumelus.  Atlantis should be plopped down near Spain.  

Yeah, of course - but I was noting that Pakistan and India are locked into continual struggles and if one has a fake location for Atlantis in their territory then the other will want one too.

[+Pettytalk]

1 hour ago, atalante said:

The geography of Atlantis does not fit India for a simple reason, India does not touch Cadiz, Spain - which Critias said was ruled by Atlantean prince Eumelus.  Atlantis should be plopped down near Spain.  

The geography of Atlantis will only fit one location to the T....T as in "The" location described by Plato. Atlantis should not be plopped down near Spain for a "simple reason", as its geography is larger than Asia and Libya combined. Where is your sense of measurement? But then, an allegory, as the many here say that it is, can be plopped down anywhere....which is where we keep finding new locations for Atlantis.  Jason Colavito loves the subject of Atlantis, and he keeps tearing down any new, or old-new proposed locations, as he makes money on the subject of Atlantis, wherever she may lay.

[Kenemet]

1 hour ago, Hanslune said:

Yeah, of course - but I was noting that Pakistan and India are locked into continual struggles and if one has a fake location for Atlantis in their territory then the other will want one too.

Is there any spot on Earth where they have NOT proposed Atlantis' location?  I'm sure there must be but it's probably a rather short list by this time.  I was going to jokingly suggest the Black Sea, but a little googling shows that this has been done already.  I think that Illinois may be one of the only locations that hasn't been done, though there is an Atlantis bar there... so maybe not.

[jaylemurph]

2 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

My dear Jay, since I'm being beaten down at chess by those grad students of this game, I may as well take it from you when it comes to the game of finding Atlantis. But I'm at least glad that with my inferior education I was able to charm a well educated person with my premise ..why that's you, of course my boy! But would you be so kind as to provide a little entertainment for me too? Why don't you charm me with your own premise on what Plato was really trying to tell the world with his writings? Or was discussing the nature of the soul just Socrates'/Plato's folly? This would not only charm me, but would really make me happy too. And is not "happiness" the theme at the center of attention of Plato's Republic? And is not the Republic the precursor and main reason for the generation of the two dialogues relating to Atlantis, the Timaeus and Critias? 

But let me tell you that I'm of like mind with Cebes, when it comes to being charmed by anyone. For instance, by Socrates, as Plato related it in the Phaedo.  Following in italics I'm citing out of sequence for my argument's sake, which is also for your soul's sake, since you present yourself on this site as a lover of learning.

Surely the proof which you desire has been already furnished. Still I suspect that you and Simmias would be glad to probe the argument further. Like children, you are haunted with a fear that when the soul leaves the body,
the wind may really blow her away and scatter her; especially if a man should happen to die in a great storm and not when the sky is calm. Cebes answered with a smile: Then, Socrates, you must argue us out of our fears–and yet, strictly speaking, they are not our fears, but there is a child within us to whom death is a sort of hobgoblin; him too we must persuade not to be afraid when he is alone in the dark. Socrates said: Let the voice of the charmer be applied daily until you have charmed away the fear. And where shall we find a good charmer of our fears, Socrates, when you are gone?

Even among them some are happier than others; and the happiest both in themselves and their place of abode are those who have practised the civil and social virtues which are called temperance and justice, and are acquired by habit and attention without philosophy and mind.

Why are they the happiest?
Because they may be expected to pass into some gentle, social nature which is like their own, such as that of bees or ants, or even back again into the form of man, and just and moderate men spring from them.

That is not impossible.
But he who is a philosopher or lover of learning, and is entirely pure at departing, is alone permitted to reach the gods. And this is the reason, Simmias and Cebes, why the true votaries of philosophy abstain from all fleshly lusts, and endure and refuse to give themselves up to them-not because they fear poverty or the ruin of their families, like the lovers of money, and the world in general; nor like the lovers of power and honor, because they dread the dishonor or disgrace of evil deeds......

 

I'm curious what part of "No serious person would waste their time arguing sgainst such folly" you don't understand? Why would I ever debate someone whose reading comprehension is so self-evidently lacking?

--Jaylemurph 

[Hanslune]

44 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

Is there any spot on Earth where they have NOT proposed Atlantis' location?  I'm sure there must be but it's probably a rather short list by this time.  I was going to jokingly suggest the Black Sea, but a little googling shows that this has been done already.  I think that Illinois may be one of the only locations that hasn't been done, though there is an Atlantis bar there... so maybe not.

Well the subject of Atlantis locations is wide open. The ones for CPA (Classic Platoan Atlantis) are restricted by his descriptions - but for NAA (New Age Atlantis) can be pretty much anywhere as it has little or nothing to do with what Plato actually wrote. I remember seeing one that used the book 'The worm Ouroboros' to say it was on the planet Mercury. 'Atlantis' seems to have an alternate meaning of 'any lost imaginary civilization/island/city/culture/place'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Worm_Ouroboros

[Lord Harry]

Gentlemen, are we still on the Atlantis topic?

I thought this issue was settled on Captain Risky's thread over a month ago?

Atlantis was merely an allegory told by Plato to express his disgust at the moral decay of contemporary Athenian society.  It is no more real that Tolken's Middle Earth or George Lucas's Galactic Empire.

[Piney]

53 minutes ago, Lord Harry said:

Gentlemen, are we still on the Atlantis topic?

Nauseating, is it not?

54 minutes ago, Lord Harry said:

Atlantis was merely an allegory told by Plato to express his disgust at the moral decay of contemporary Athenian society.  It is no more real that Tolken's Middle Earth or George Lucas's Galactic Empire.

Try telling that to the fringe. 

[Orphalesion]

On 3/16/2019 at 1:20 AM, Jodie.Lynne said:

Did someone mention … Space Jews?

 

 

Kind of long at 11 + minutes. Apologies for any brain hemorrhages induced by this bushwa.

Is that person serious or is that parody?
When was Babylon ever thought to be a myth?

Edited March 29, 2019 by Orphalesion

[Doug1029]

Plato said Atlantis was "beyond the Pillars of Hercules."  That would be consistent with this.  Otherwise, Thera/Crete seem to be better choices.

9000 years before Plato would have been 9400 BC.  There were still large ice caps in northern Europe and North America.  Sea levels were well below modern.  Has anybody checked to see how much of this site would have been accessible by ship in 9400 BC?  How about in 1500 BC?

Doug

Edited March 29, 2019 by Doug1029

[jmccr8]

4 hours ago, Kenemet said:

Is there any spot on Earth where they have NOT proposed Atlantis' location?  I'm sure there must be but it's probably a rather short list by this time.  I was going to jokingly suggest the Black Sea, but a little googling shows that this has been done already.  I think that Illinois may be one of the only locations that hasn't been done, though there is an Atlantis bar there... so maybe not.

Hi Kenemet

Pretty sure nobody has said it was in Biggar Saskatchewan

jmccr8

[Hanslune]

2 hours ago, Piney said:

Nauseating, is it not?

Try telling that to the fringe. 

Rupert won't let me say anything about Atlantis unless its a secondary issue and has comedy value. While he lives in a can of Hormel chili (no beans) on my computer desk he still has a 19th century revolver and is a fair shot - for an ancient disembodied spirit.

I only touch on trivial aspects of it as it's pretty much a dead subject - beaten to death decades ago.

[Kenemet]

4 hours ago, Hanslune said:

Well the subject of Atlantis locations is wide open. The ones for CPA (Classic Platoan Atlantis) are restricted by his descriptions - but for NAA (New Age Atlantis) can be pretty much anywhere as it has little or nothing to do with what Plato actually wrote. I remember seeing one that used the book 'The worm Ouroboros' to say it was on the planet Mercury. 'Atlantis' seems to have an alternate meaning of 'any lost imaginary civilization/island/city/culture/place'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Worm_Ouroboros

Oh, there's a blast from the past!

I was an avid reader of fantasy in my early 20's and did indeed read Worm Ourobos... though it was very evidently forgettable among the masses of tomes I've read since then.  In looking over the plot synopsis, I don't remember a single thing about it.

At this point, I don't recall any fictional Atlantis stories that I found particularly enchanting, though I know I've read them (I had (and still have) a 50+ books/year reading habit/addiction.)