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Van Gorp

Is this Atlantis ... at the coast of Spain?

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atalante
2 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Didn't Plato also say he made it all up? ....

 

That is not my understanding of the dialogue.

Critias 27b says Critias is going to teleport some of Athena Saitis's craftpeople to Attica - in accordance with the law code of Solon.  And the law code of Solon said that immigrant craftsmen, if they came to Athens, would be granted actual citizenship of Athens.  

The Critias dialogue has set up a wargame scenario; and the Hermocrates character is expected to narrate an endgame.  Hermocrates will be supervising an "ancient Athens" that is numerically outnumbered by approximately 30:1, in the number of military troops.  

The situation will resemble a scene in the movie Gladiator, in a game at the Collosseum.  Roman emperor Commodus is stunned by the outcome of a game that aimed to reenact the Punic war, and asks "But didn't Carthage lose the Punic war?"

 

 

 

 

Edited by atalante

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Earl.Of.Trumps
On 11/17/2018 at 9:42 PM, Lord Harry said:

The only imaginary thing, beings in this case, that surpass the sheer imaginary insanity of Atlantis are aliens.

 

There ya go! trivializing my people again:wacko:

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Hanslune
On 11/18/2018 at 4:07 AM, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

The world needs Atlantis threads, where else can we get the intoxicating mix of old legends, allegories, misinterpretations, phsycics, LEGO linguistics, pseudoscience, nationalism, Photoshop and just plain old stubbornness ?

Say hi to Rupert.

He doesn't seem to like you and replied, 'tudefj's'

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Noteverythingisaconspiracy
6 hours ago, Hanslune said:

He doesn't seem to like you and replied, 'tudefj's'

I just tried to be nice. :cry:

.... and it's tudefjæs !

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Orphalesion
On 11/17/2018 at 5:08 PM, Van Gorp said:

Any thoughts? Be my guest.

Atlantis is a fictional place created for an allegory and calling these ruins "Atlantis" is robbing them and their people of their history in favour of a childish fairy tale.

Though would be interesting to know whether people in, let's say, 3000 years time debate whether the ruins of of, let's say, modern day Santa Clara are "Ancient Riverdale, where the Archies lived" :rolleyes:

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Piney
56 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

Atlantis is a fictional place created for an allegory and calling these ruins "Atlantis" is robbing them and their people of their history in favour of a childish fairy tale.

Though would be interesting to know whether people in, let's say, 3000 years time debate whether the ruins of of, let's say, modern day Santa Clara are "Ancient Riverdale, where the Archies lived" :rolleyes:

Some woocrapper 3,000 years from now will find a wrecked "General Lee" stunt car in the hills of Bakersfield and and argue the Dukes of Hazard actually happened in SoCal. :yes:

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The Wistman

Atlantis, in Dubai.  See!

5bfc250000c47_atlantishoteldubai.jpg.56a9a2909039b0df54e254982f024570.jpg

Built by aliens.....of Dubai (working for slave/crap wages) 

image.png

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jaylemurph
7 hours ago, Piney said:

Some woocrapper 3,000 years from now will find a wrecked "General Lee" stunt car in the hills of Bakersfield and and argue the Dukes of Hazard actually happened in SoCal. :yes:

Wait wait wait. 

It didn’t?

Wee Jaylemurph is crushed. 

—Jaylemurph 

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jaylemurph
8 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

Atlantis is a fictional place created for an allegory and calling these ruins "Atlantis" is robbing them and their people of their history in favour of a childish fairy tale.

Though would be interesting to know whether people in, let's say, 3000 years time debate whether the ruins of of, let's say, modern day Santa Clara are "Ancient Riverdale, where the Archies lived" :rolleyes:

Preach it, sister!

—Jaylemurph

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Jarocal
2 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

Wait wait wait. 

It didn’t?

Wee Jaylemurph is crushed. 

—Jaylemurph 

I knew you were a MOPAR guy...

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Van Gorp

Whether Atlantis as told by Plato is real or not is open for debate.

Not that interesting for me, seemingly for others who do not believe a bit of it, it is a fixation.

Get over it lol

One thing not open for debate, and many tend to forget/deny/overlook this FACT, is that Plato did his utmost best to say the story of Ancient Athens and Atlantis (in contrast with the theoretical discussion about an ideal state) IS REAL.

This does not mean it IS, but it means Plato at least was convinced himself or wanted to convince others to look at it as a fact, not a fiction.  The allegory believers seem not to understand how an allegory is used or works.  When you use an allegory, you take real and known examples to personalise or draw up the more abstract message.

In other words Plato was saying all along: please don't look at Atlantis as a myth.  And what do some people do? :-)

They think to know better Plato's intentions and words then he himself. Fine, but the allegory piste is only a personal consideration, direct in contrast to his own words and hence not of much value in the discussion about what Plato actually said.

 

Concerning the country the
Egyptian priests said what is not only probable but manifestly true

...

and this proves the truth of what I am saying

...

Then listen, Socrates, to a tale which, though strange, is
certainly true

...

through the lapse of time and
the destruction of the actors, it has not come down to us

...

The
city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction,
we will now transfer to the world of reality.
It shall be the
ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you
imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they
will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying
that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians.

 

 

 

Edited by Van Gorp
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Harte
4 hours ago, Van Gorp said:

One thing not open for debate, and many tend to forget/deny/overlook this FACT, is that Plato did his utmost best to say the story of Ancient Athens and Atlantis (in contrast with the theoretical discussion about an ideal state) IS REAL.

This does not mean it IS, but it means Plato at least was convinced himself or wanted to convince others to look at it as a fact, not a fiction.  The allegory believers seem not to understand how an allegory is used or works.  When you use an allegory, you take real and known examples to personalise or draw up the more abstract message.

In other words Plato was saying all along: please don't look at Atlantis as a myth.  And what do some people do? :-)

They think to know better Plato's intentions and words then he himself. Fine, but the allegory piste is only a personal consideration, direct in contrast to his own words and hence not of much value in the discussion about what Plato actually said.

If you read Plato's other works, you find him using the same literary mechanism in other Dialogues.

Besides, if you take Plato at his word, you have to believe that Poseidon had a son named Atlas that was given the island.

Are we ready to start sacrificing to the Greek Gods Plato insisted were factual?

Harte

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Jon the frog
On 11/17/2018 at 11:56 AM, third_eye said:

Let's settle this once and for all ... everybody check out your windows ... if you see Atlantis, whistle three times ...

~

Holy cow, Atlantis is made of snow !!! It's just falling back to earth after been destroyed by a volcanic eruption, a tsunami and  blow up by a meteor !

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Kenemet
14 hours ago, Van Gorp said:

Whether Atlantis as told by Plato is real or not is open for debate.

Not that interesting for me, seemingly for others who do not believe a bit of it, it is a fixation.

Get over it lol

One thing not open for debate, and many tend to forget/deny/overlook this FACT, is that Plato did his utmost best to say the story of Ancient Athens and Atlantis (in contrast with the theoretical discussion about an ideal state) IS REAL.

This does not mean it IS, but it means Plato at least was convinced himself or wanted to convince others to look at it as a fact, not a fiction.  The allegory believers seem not to understand how an allegory is used or works.  When you use an allegory, you take real and known examples to personalise or draw up the more abstract message.

In other words Plato was saying all along: please don't look at Atlantis as a myth.  And what do some people do? :-)

(snip)

Actually, Plato was saying that Socrates presented it as real.  Not that he, Plato believed it.

And Socrates didn't write down what he, himself said.  For all we know, Plato made up these dialogues.

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atalante
On 11/17/2018 at 3:18 PM, Windowpane said:

The Merlin Burrows expedition described in the Daily Mail is discussed here.

(A few years back, under the name Merlin Down, it appears that they tried to find the Beatrice, the ship bearing the sarcophagus from the pyramid of Menkaure that sank on the voyage home.  As nothing more was ever heard, presumably that expedition ended in disappointment).

The Merlin Burrows claim about Atlantis has been more thoroughly refuted at 

http://atlantisng.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Atlantis-finally-discovered-An-analysis-of-the-three-fundamental-cornerstones-of-the-documentary-ATLANTICA-by-Ingenio-Films..pdf

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atalante
On 11/26/2018 at 9:58 AM, The Wistman said:

Atlantis, in Dubai.  See!

5bfc250000c47_atlantishoteldubai.jpg.56a9a2909039b0df54e254982f024570.jpg

Built by aliens.....of Dubai (working for slave/crap wages) 

image.png

or, in Sekhet Hetep, Spain 2200-1550 BC, built by humans

labastida.jpg

 

Edited by atalante

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atalante

 

6 minutes ago, atalante said:

deleted double post

labastida.jpg

 

Edited by atalante

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Hanslune
On 11/26/2018 at 5:09 AM, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

I just tried to be nice. :cry:

.... and it's tudefjæs !

Not in the ' Proto-pre-antediluvian-Norse' from 30,000+ years ago which is what they were speaking when Rupert last stole something from them. I would suggest reading a book on it but there are only two fragments remaining of the one remaining  book from that period. One fragment is the index which consists of a reference to a tree and guy to ask. Oh  and one funny cartoon about Orfe the unsteady vs the mammoth armed with detached ley line. Additionally at that time they had only figured out an alphabet of 5 runes and they were all straight lines.

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cormac mac airt
6 hours ago, atalante said:

or, in Sekhet Hetep, Spain 2200-1550 BC, built by humans

labastida.jpg

 

Curious as to why the above is shown with what is obviously an Egyptian name when it is already known as La Bastida located in Totana, Murcia, Spain?

cormac

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kmt_sesh
49 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Curious as to why the above is shown with what is obviously an Egyptian name when it is already known as La Bastida located in Totana, Murcia, Spain?

cormac

I didn't get that, either.

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Van Gorp
On 27-11-2018 at 10:29 PM, Kenemet said:

Actually, Plato was saying that Socrates presented it as real.  Not that he, Plato believed it.

And Socrates didn't write down what he, himself said.  For all we know, Plato made up these dialogues.

So now Socrates is the one presenting Atlantis as real? Award winning reply  :)))) Please explain.

Plato is always been said as the one coming up with Atlantis first, and one should look at his words (in the form of a dialogue yes of course): you can't have it both ways :-)

So you say: Plato made up that Socrates presented Atlantis as real, and didn't believe socrates..

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kmt_sesh
14 minutes ago, Van Gorp said:

So now Socrates is the one presenting Atlantis as real? Award winning reply  :)))) Please explain.

Plato is always been said as the one coming up with Atlantis first, and one should look at his words (in the form of a dialogue yes of course): you can't have it both ways :-)

So you say: Plato made up that Socrates presented Atlantis as real, and didn't believe socrates..

Yes, Plato invented the story, but during the course of the story, he isn't the one who presents it.

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Hanslune
4 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

Curious as to why the above is shown with what is obviously an Egyptian name when it is already known as La Bastida located in Totana, Murcia, Spain?

cormac

https://therealsamizdat.com/tag/sekhet-hetep/

Not sure why Atlalante use that term.

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Kenemet
56 minutes ago, Van Gorp said:

So now Socrates is the one presenting Atlantis as real? Award winning reply  :)))) Please explain.

Plato is always been said as the one coming up with Atlantis first, and one should look at his words (in the form of a dialogue yes of course): you can't have it both ways :-)

So you say: Plato made up that Socrates presented Atlantis as real, and didn't believe socrates..

If you read the source material, you see that the author (Plato) is writing about what his teacher (Socrates) said.  In the books that Plato wrote, it is Socrates who tells the story of Atlantis.  The books are framed around the last days of his teacher, Socrates and end with his death.  A decent summary of the books Iand individual titles) is here:  https://www.mcgoodwin.net/pages/otherbooks/plato.html

If you're going to debate this with us, you might want to become more familiar with what Plato actually wrote rather than the popular fragments that are found on a lot of web pages.   At the very least, read a decent summary of this set of books.  If you don't know the books and the context, then you will quickly be left in the dust.

 

 

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Van Gorp
14 hours ago, Kenemet said:

In the books that Plato wrote, it is Socrates who tells the story of Atlantis.

When Atlantis is used by Plato only as an allegory to fit an argumentation for the ideal state, 'Socrates who tells the story of Atlantis' can't have happened in real.

I think you mean this by saying Plato made up the dialogues.

 

But if the dialogues do carry a truth of revelation to Socrates/Plato about the factual base of the story (what is even so possible), the allegory usage by Plato cannot be held.

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