Is this Atlantis ... at the coast of Spain?

[Kenemet 11,089]

31 minutes ago, Van Gorp said:

When Atlantis is used by Plato only as an allegory to fit an argumentation for the ideal state, 'Socrates who tells the story of Atlantis' can't have happened in real.I think you mean this by saying Plato made up the dialogues.

It's certainly possible.  We know that Socrates existed.  We know about some of his ideas (mostly from Plato) But we don't know if Plato was copying them word-for-word (unlikely, given the amount of time it takes to write a sentence versus speak a sentence) or summarizing them or just making it up.

Quote

But if the dialogues do carry a truth of revelation to Socrates/Plato about the factual base of the story (what is even so possible), the allegory usage by Plato cannot be held.

AFIK, none of his other stories in these dialogues were recounts of history.  There is no reason that this should be.

[atalante 363]

21 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

Curious as to why the above is shown with what is obviously an Egyptian name when it is already known as La Bastida located in Totana, Murcia, Spain?

cormac

cormac,

 

La Bastida was first excavated in 2012, so relatively few people about it.     www.aroundtheworldineightyyears.com/la-bastida-spain/

 

La Bastida was the military bastion that protected a nearby barley monoculture (El Argar culture) that sprang up in the only part of Europe that resembled the Nile portion of Egypt.  The river that was initially used to start El Argar culture now goes by the name "river of mud-and-sludge" (Guadelentin).  Later, El Argar society expanded into a much larger area in southern Spain.

 

But Egypt did not directly reach El Argar culture; Middle Minoan Crete was the middleman.  Minoan architectural elements were incorporated in building La Bastida, at a time when those architectural elements were not being used anywhere else in Europe.  http://geniusofancientman.blogspot.com/2013/03/la-bastida.html

 

Middle Minoan Crete suddenly became wealthy enough to start building palaces at the same time when Kestel tin mines in Anatolia finally became exhausted, and then stopped production of tin at the nearby Goltepe tin smelting village.

www.academia.edu/1581326/Strategic_Industries_and_Tin_in_the_Ancient_NE_Anatolia_Updated

 

By coincidence, the era when Kestel tin production at Kestel/Goltepe declined (and eventually ceased) was also near the peak of prosperity for El Argar culture in Spain.

 

Middle Kingdom Egypt. almost simultaneously with the decline - and end - of Kestrel tin production, began reporting rumors about this legendary far western society, under the name Sekhet Hetep.  And the nobles of Egypt suddenly developed their notion that deceased Middle Kingdom Egyptian nobles could go there in an afterworld.  The Coffin Texts of El Birsheh contained a map to guide the afterworld souls, through a rough approximation of islands in the western Mediterranean sea, into this fabled far western land. 

 

A deity of Sekhet Hetep, in the El Birsheh maps, was named the White Hippopotamus.  Coffin text 466 reported that the waterway to reach the White Hippopotamus was 1000 schoens long, and nobody knew how wide it was (although the Coffin Texts show that some ancient Egyptian people offered conflicting guesses about how wide it was).   For details about the Waterway of the White Hippopotamus, see Figure 5 in   www.academia.edu/231849/The_Ritual_Landscape_of_the_Field_of_Hetep

 

You can look up the names, dates and family relationships of Middle Kingdom Egyptian nobles who participated in this Egyptian afterworld belief in figure 2 of the following paper by Peter Robinson.  (The first nobles whose El Birsheh coffins contained these maps lived in the time of Amenemhet 1, thus ca. 1950 BC; and the El Birsheh coffin maps continued through the reign of Sesostris III, thus ca. 1825 BC.)

www.academia.edu/231849/The_Ritual_Landscape_of_the_Field_of_Hetep

Edited November 29, 2018 by atalante

[Harte 18,412]

23 hours ago, Hanslune said:

Not in the ' Proto-pre-antediluvian-Norse' from 30,000+ years ago which is what they were speaking when Rupert last stole something from them. I would suggest reading a book on it but there are only two fragments remaining of the one remaining  book from that period. One fragment is the index which consists of a reference to a tree and guy to ask. Oh  and one funny cartoon about Orfe the unsteady vs the mammoth armed with detached ley line. Additionally at that time they had only figured out an alphabet of 5 runes and they were all straight lines.

The original Ogham!

Harte

[Harte 18,412]

Socrates didn't tell the Atlantis story, he heard it.

Critias told it.

Harte

[Windowpane 1,844]

On 11/29/2018 at 6:38 AM, Van Gorp said:

...

Plato is always been said as the one coming up with Atlantis first ...

Well ... there is Hellanicus of Lesbos (500 BC) and his fragments ...

Wiki n. 107: 

Quote

 "The following papyrus, 1359, which Grenfell and Hunt identified as also from the Catalogue, is regarded by C. Robert as part of a separate epic, which he calls Atlantis." Bell, H. Idris, "Bibliography: Graeco-Roman Egypt A. Papyri (1915-1919)", The Journal of Egyptian Archaeology, Vol. 6, No. 2 (Apr., 1920), pp. 119-146.

And n. 108:

 

Quote

 P.Oxy. 1359. See Carl Robert (1917): Eine epische Atlantias, Hermes, Vol. 52, No. 3 (Jul., 1917), pp. 477-79.  [in German]

(See also Grenfell and Hunt).

[Harte 18,412]

It appears to be about the family of the Titan Atlas (not related to Plato's Atlantis, in other words.)

"Atlantis" actually means "of Atlas."

Harte

[Windowpane 1,844]

10 minutes ago, Harte said:

It appears to be about the family of the Titan Atlas (not related to Plato's Atlantis, in other words.)

"Atlantis" actually means "of Atlas."

 

It can also mean "daughter of Atlas" (I think Hellanicus was actually supposed to be writing a work of genealogy).

So a bit disingenuous, I suppose!  But the point is that it is a mention, preceding Plato, of a work called "Atlantis" ... 

[Kenemet 11,089]

18 hours ago, atalante said:

Middle Kingdom Egypt. almost simultaneously with the decline - and end - of Kestrel tin production, began reporting rumors about this legendary far western society, under the name Sekhet Hetep.  And the nobles of Egypt suddenly developed their notion that deceased Middle Kingdom Egyptian nobles could go there in an afterworld.  The Coffin Texts of El Birsheh contained a map to guide the afterworld souls, through a rough approximation of islands in the western Mediterranean sea, into this fabled far western land. 

That's not correct.  "Seket Hetep" is not a legendary far western society, it's the land of the dead.  And the "map" is not about islands.

Quote

A deity of Sekhet Hetep, in the El Birsheh maps, was named the White Hippopotamus.  Coffin text 466 reported that the waterway to reach the White Hippopotamus was 1000 schoens long, and nobody knew how wide it was (although the Coffin Texts show that some ancient Egyptian people offered conflicting guesses about how wide it was).   For details about the Waterway of the White Hippopotamus, see Figure 5 in   www.academia.edu/231849/The_Ritual_Landscape_of_the_Field_of_Hetep

 

You can look up the names, dates and family relationships of Middle Kingdom Egyptian nobles who participated in this Egyptian afterworld belief in figure 2 of the following paper by Peter Robinson.  (The first nobles whose El Birsheh coffins contained these maps lived in the time of Amenemhet 1, thus ca. 1950 BC; and the El Birsheh coffin maps continued through the reign of Sesostris III, thus ca. 1825 BC.)

www.academia.edu/231849/The_Ritual_Landscape_of_the_Field_of_Hetep

There's no connection to Atlantis or to any physical place.

[cormac mac airt 14,927]

33 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

That's not correct.  "Seket Hetep" is not a legendary far western society, it's the land of the dead.  And the "map" is not about islands.

There's no connection to Atlantis or to any physical place.

Thanks Kenemet, I had come to the same conclusion. 

cormac

[HollyDolly 408]

Don't know if you have heard of it, but there once was a city known as Tartesso, right in that region of Spain  near Cadiz. They had a written language, which was a pre-Iberian one. Wikipedia has  information on it as well as photos of objects  like bronzes  these people made. They also traded with the celts and others.

There are a couple of bust scultputres ,like the Lady of Elche and there is another similar one. These are stone not bronze, and i think they might have been made by these people , but not sure. Atlantis could be a myth, why because St.Thomas More, Lord Chancellor  to Henry the Eigth,before he was executed for refusing to sign the Act of Succession, had written a book named Utopia. I've never read it, but it is a famous book, and the place isn't real.

[The Truman show 10,709]

1 hour ago, HollyDolly said:

Don't know if you have heard of it, but there once was a city known as Tartesso, right in that region of Spain  near Cadiz. They had a written language, which was a pre-Iberian one. Wikipedia has  information on it as well as photos of objects  like bronzes  these people made. They also traded with the celts and others.

There are a couple of bust scultputres ,like the Lady of Elche and there is another similar one. These are stone not bronze, and i think they might have been made by these people , but not sure. Atlantis could be a myth, why because St.Thomas More, Lord Chancellor  to Henry the Eigth,before he was executed for refusing to sign the Act of Succession, had written a book named Utopia. I've never read it, but it is a famous book, and the place isn't real.

you know i think the real problem is people taking Plato's description of Atlantis far too literally. if Atlantis real then maybe Plato was just talking about greatness and grandness more than 10,000 chariots and building covered in gold and silver. the Vikings described Constantinople as the golden city. does that mean the city was made of gold? no. so maybe Atlantis is in Spain just not the Atlantis that Plato describes. 

[kmt_sesh 36,497]

8 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

you know i think the real problem is people taking Plato's description of Atlantis far too literally. if Atlantis real then maybe Plato was just talking about greatness and grandness more than 10,000 chariots and building covered in gold and silver. the Vikings described Constantinople as the golden city. does that mean the city was made of gold? no. so maybe Atlantis is in Spain just not the Atlantis that Plato describes. 

A far bigger problem is people liberally taking Plato out of context. We see it here all the time, and painfully so. Surely some things in the allegory are obviously fiction, but that doesn't mean the reader can forgo the entire story and make up something new. The reader who does that isn't looking for Atlantis but some sad sci-fi fantasy.

[The Truman show 10,709]

6 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

A far bigger problem is people liberally taking Plato out of context. We see it here all the time, and painfully so. Surely some things in the allegory are obviously fiction, but that doesn't mean the reader can forgo the entire story and make up something new. The reader who does that isn't looking for Atlantis but some sad sci-fi fantasy.

...only if you assume it is fictional allegory.

[atalante 363]

20 hours ago, Kenemet said:

That's not correct.  "Seket Hetep" is not a legendary far western society, it's the land of the dead.  And the "map" is not about islands.

There's no connection to Atlantis or to any physical place.

kenemet,

 

I agree that the Egyptian documents from 2200-1550 BC do not mention the Greek name Atlantis.   But that is what Critias's storyline said to expect.

 

For similar reasons, modern archaeology about the El Argar era, 2200-1550 BC, has not found any plaque that uses the Greek name Atlantis (and presumably never will).  According to the Critias character, all the original names - from 2200-570 BC - have been modified to sound Greek to his contemporary Greek audience (ca 409 BC). 

 

In regard to the Egyptian concept of the afterworld - it included the places in the far west where the sun goes while Egypt experiences night, so the sun can be "reborn" in the east every morning. 

 

The Greek philosopher Porphyry said that the Atlantis theme plagiarized Egyptian legends about demons who destroy souls in the far west.

Edited December 1, 2018 by atalante

[Kenemet 11,089]

On 11/30/2018 at 12:57 PM, HollyDolly said:

Don't know if you have heard of it, but there once was a city known as Tartesso, right in that region of Spain  near Cadiz. They had a written language, which was a pre-Iberian one. Wikipedia has  information on it as well as photos of objects  like bronzes  these people made. They also traded with the celts and others.

There are a couple of bust scultputres ,like the Lady of Elche and there is another similar one. These are stone not bronze, and i think they might have been made by these people , but not sure. Atlantis could be a myth, why because St.Thomas More, Lord Chancellor  to Henry the Eigth,before he was executed for refusing to sign the Act of Succession, had written a book named Utopia. I've never read it, but it is a famous book, and the place isn't real.

It was roughly contemporary with Plato and Socrates: https://www.ancient.eu/tartessos/

[Harte 18,412]

On 11/30/2018 at 11:45 AM, Windowpane said:

It can also mean "daughter of Atlas". 

 

Nah.

Quote

θυγάτηρ , gen. θυ_γατέρος and θυγατρός: daughter.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0073%3Aentry%3Dquga%2Fthr&highlight=daughter

Quote

θυγα?́τηρ

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0072%3Aentry%3Dquga%2Fthr&highlight=daughter

Quote

θυγάτηρ

a daughter,

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dquga%2Fthr&highlight=daughter

Harte

[Harte 18,412]

"Daughter."

Woodhouse

Harte

[jaylemurph 13,347]

1 hour ago, Harte said:

"Daughter."

Woodhouse

Harte

Wodehouse? Spiffing reference, what ho, eh Harte! That’ll keep the old bean turning over for simply ages!

—Gussie Fink-Murphy

 

[Harte 18,412]

Well, it's all Greek to me.

Harte

[Kenemet 11,089]

3 hours ago, Harte said:

 

Nah.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0073%3Aentry%3Dquga%2Fthr&highlight=daughter

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0072%3Aentry%3Dquga%2Fthr&highlight=daughter

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dquga%2Fthr&highlight=daughter

Harte

"Atlante" is used as a patronymic ... see Wikipedia on patronymics (link is to modern Greek patronymics, but it serves for an example) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patronymic#Greek_and_Greek_Cypriot 

[Windowpane 1,844]

7 hours ago, Harte said:

 

Nah.

Well ....  (Let me start by confessing that I can't read ancient Greek! )  However, Hellanicus apparently wrote other genealogical guides concerning the descendants of daughters mentioned in myths and legends -.e.g.,  Phoronis, about the daughters of Phoroneus, King of Argos.

Moreover, the Oxyrhynchus fragment includes a reference about Lycus, son of Poseidon and Celaeno (daughter of Atlas), living in the Isles of the Blest; which could be compared with Plato's description of Atlas, son of Poseidon and Cleito, sharing in the rulership of an extraordinary island.  So perhaps Plato might have been influenced by Hellanicus ...

[Harte 18,412]

6 hours ago, Windowpane said:

Well ....  (Let me start by confessing that I can't read ancient Greek! )  However, Hellanicus apparently wrote other genealogical guides concerning the descendants of daughters mentioned in myths and legends -.e.g.,  Phoronis, about the daughters of Phoroneus, King of Argos.

Moreover, the Oxyrhynchus fragment includes a reference about Lycus, son of Poseidon and Celaeno (daughter of Atlas), living in the Isles of the Blest; which could be compared with Plato's description of Atlas, son of Poseidon and Cleito, sharing in the rulership of an extraordinary island.  So perhaps Plato might have been influenced by Hellanicus ...

I've seen the argument. It's hard for me to get behind it though. Hellanicus' work was a genealogy of the family of Atlas. Basing anything on one fragment is pretty shaky. There were probably hundreds of other examples of similar stories that once existed in that book that we could also say Plato was influenced by.

But it's possible, I suppose..

And I can't read Greek either. I mean, I can make out some of the words. Now if I only knew the language! LOL

The point of my previous post was that the title given doesn't contain any version of the word "daughter." Don't have to read Greek to see that.

Harte

[Windowpane 1,844]

12 minutes ago, Harte said:

...

The point of my previous post was that the title given doesn't contain any version of the word "daughter." 

...

No ... but it wouldn't necessarily have to contain the word "daughter" to mean "daughter (of)" ...  (Probably easier to understand if one knows ancient Greek, I guess!   )

[Harte 18,412]

The word "Atlantis" already contains the "of" idea. It's in the suffix.

It's also in the suffix of the word "Atlantic."

Harte

Edited December 2, 2018 by Harte

[Harte 18,412]

Quote

Atlantic (adj.)

"of or pertaining to the sea off the west coast of Africa," early 15c., Atlantyke, from Latin Atlanticus, from Greek Atlantikos "of Atlas," adjectival form of Atlas (genitive Atlantos), in reference to Mount Atlas in Mauritania (see Atlas). Applied since c. 1600 to the ocean between Europe and Africa, on one side, and the Americas on the other. As a noun late 14c., Athlant, from Old French Atlante.

online etymology dictionary

Harte