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Van Gorp

Is this Atlantis ... at the coast of Spain?

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Pettytalk
On 11/17/2018 at 7:38 PM, kmt_sesh said:

I'd be fine with that. Has there ever been an imaginary place over which so many gullible people has struggle so hard?

Same subject, but a different location. I can think of two imaginary places over which makes Atlantis insignificant, as far as the number of "gullible" people who struggle towards. How about heaven and hell?

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jaylemurph
1 hour ago, Pettytalk said:

Same subject, but a different location. I can think of two imaginary places over which makes Atlantis insignificant, as far as the number of "gullible" people who struggle towards. How about heaven and hell?

That’d be funny had the same two jokes not already been made. 

With far better timing and delivery, it must be said. 

—Jaylemurph 

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Pettytalk
3 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

That’d be funny had the same two jokes not already been made. 

With far better timing and delivery, it must be said. 

—Jaylemurph 

If it must be said, then I played it safe, not wanting to risk more wrath, and repeated what was considered proper, although rather poorly, as you point out, I take it. Perhaps it was my gesture for asking for forgiveness. Actually I did not go over the entire thread to read all the posts, and hastily provided my comment without going further up the thread. As they say, haste makes waste. Although once I did read further, I did want to engage the moderator and get his opinion on another of his comments, where he indicates that the Timaeus and Critias were not Plato's more important dialogues. I thought that if he would take the time to reply to me on my badly timed joke, he may allow me to get his opinion on which he believes to be Plato's more important dialogues, and why. 

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kmt_sesh
1 hour ago, Pettytalk said:

If it must be said, then I played it safe, not wanting to risk more wrath, and repeated what was considered proper, although rather poorly, as you point out, I take it. Perhaps it was my gesture for asking for forgiveness. Actually I did not go over the entire thread to read all the posts, and hastily provided my comment without going further up the thread. As they say, haste makes waste. Although once I did read further, I did want to engage the moderator and get his opinion on another of his comments, where he indicates that the Timaeus and Critias were not Plato's more important dialogues. I thought that if he would take the time to reply to me on my badly timed joke, he may allow me to get his opinion on which he believes to be Plato's more important dialogues, and why. 

I'm not a great fan of philosophy and I am no Plato expert, so any such answer has to be subjective. I think no work displays his theories and beliefs better than the Republic. There's the Symposium for his beliefs on the nature of philosophy, and there's Theaetetus on the discourse of knowledge. I haven't read a lot of this stuff since college and my days as a young mummy, but I remember what impressed me. The two Atlantis dialogues did not, at least not as much—but that too is a subjective conclusion.

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Pettytalk
10 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

I'm not a great fan of philosophy and I am no Plato expert, so any such answer has to be subjective. I think no work displays his theories and beliefs better than the Republic. There's the Symposium for his beliefs on the nature of philosophy, and there's Theaetetus on the discourse of knowledge. I haven't read a lot of this stuff since college and my days as a young mummy, but I remember what impressed me. The two Atlantis dialogues did not, at least not as much—but that too is a subjective conclusion.

That is a very honest and straightforward answer, and I liked it. Still, I would ask you, does not someone have to be an expert on Plato in order to assert anything about the story of Atlantis? Or at least if not an expert, a follower of those that are retained as being experts? But perhaps less than that is all that is required to come to our own personal conclusions. The fact is, and just about everyone knows it, and that it is that most, or nearly all the experts on Plato are of opinion that is just a story fabricated by Plato. And it is hard to argue with experts, unless one is more of an expert on the very subject of the argument. What makes one an expert on Plato is another whole argument.

But as far as your opinion on Plato's work, I tended to opine like you, and did regard, like the experts, that the Republic is the great work of the works. But in the last two decades, I have though otherwise. What I mean is that the dialogues are all equal and there is no one greater than another. One must take the whole, and understand the whole to understand the part, whether it be the Republic, or any of the other dialogues. Sure there are doubts about some dialogues being spurious, being just copycats' work, and the same doubts arise with the letters of Plato. But if one understands just what the majority of experts agree as being genuine Plato, and we can have faith as to the original work in "Plato's own handwriting " having survived all those centuries by safekeeping, recopying error free, and yes, even correctly and faithfully translated, we can then safely tell what is and what is not part of the whole that Plato gave us. But there many faces to Plato, and many layers in his writings. And that has to be clearly understood before anyone can finalize the story of Atlantis. A tall task for anyone human, to say the least.

The three dialogues you have identified are indeed what most experts consider as Plato's best, but one must go to the whole to see just how they fit in. And as far as the Timaeus and the "unfinished" Critias, along with the promised third, the Hermocrates, but apparently never written, are connected to the Republic, and are written in way as to place little doubt they are meant as the continuation of the Republic. But I need not mention this to you, as you must be well aware of it. I just mentioned it if someone reading here was not aware of it. And I have noted that there a few here that are not into Plato, other than the Atlantis material. 

Thanks for having provided you opinion.

 

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kmt_sesh
8 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

That is a very honest and straightforward answer, and I liked it. Still, I would ask you, does not someone have to be an expert on Plato in order to assert anything about the story of Atlantis? Or at least if not an expert, a follower of those that are retained as being experts?...

Being an expert sure would be helpful but not enough unto itself, given how inaccurate and imprecise Plato is in his Atlantis accounts (historically speaking). One must also be versed in the cultures in question and in their histories, not to mention archaeology of and research in the ancient Mediterranean world. Using Plato by himself would be a bit like relying fully on Herodotus, whose accounts we know are riddled with errors.

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Pettytalk
On 12/3/2018 at 5:27 PM, kmt_sesh said:

Being an expert sure would be helpful but not enough unto itself, given how inaccurate and imprecise Plato is in his Atlantis accounts (historically speaking). One must also be versed in the cultures in question and in their histories, not to mention archaeology of and research in the ancient Mediterranean world. Using Plato by himself would be a bit like relying fully on Herodotus, whose accounts we know are riddled with errors.

A fair observation on Plato's inaccurate and imprecise accounting on Atlantis. For does not an expert accountant deal with numbers, much as a mathematician does? Both will add, subtract, multiply, and divide. But let me ask you further, since you seem nearly alone in conversing with me without also inserting the usual compliments I'm getting around this forum.

Are these inaccuracies within the limits of, easy to spot? And was Plato, or if not him, then, some of his disciples/students to whom he lectured his dialogues to at the Academy aware of these inaccuracies we ourselves so easily see? And as to being imprecise, may not the same be questioned as for inaccuracy, if this two differ? 

Also, this reasoning begs for another question. If we are asserting that Plato was just giving us an allegory with the story of Atlantis, would not including the inaccurate and imprecise accounts and descriptions intentionally, be a way of asserting and making it obvious to the well informed reader, that indeed he made it all up? And I'm referring to Plato's time well informed readers, just now. Logically, if an allegory is made by using material to make the point for the allegory, and which is precise to the T, the truth of the material does not effect the allegory itself. The same can be said for allegory using inaccurate material. In either case both remain an allegory, as intended. The problem arises in the use of the Atlantis story for allegory, when the story appears plausible as a reality to the readers, due to making the material "questionable" as possibly being true. This is done by presenting it in a too realistic fashion, by using minute and "precise" measurements. The story is staged in a shroud of repetitive claims of truth through the very plot of this story being used by Plato to make a clearer philosophical point. But it is also presented with very vague and insufficient descriptions too for aiding in actually locating any possible real Atlantis, or any of the other players involved. This would be appropriate, only if Plato was trying to make it a kind of riddle, and game for us, and provided a kind of Treasure Island map for finding the pirates' treasure. Great game if Plato intended as such. He clearly was not giving us what appears on the surface, a treasure map, even with all that gold, silver, and orichalcum waved in front of our faces. This too also lends to Plato's intent to assure that his readers did not become convinced that there was any real truth to the story. The very fact that no one had heard of it before Plato presented it, would suffice to his generation of readers, to preclude any whims of placing any faith, or even more than just a little shadow of doubt on it. 

Logically speaking, any discussions on the reality of Atlantis can be easily dismissed simply by a little reasoning on it. What need of our exact sciences to dispel what amounts to just a mere children's story, a fable? And anyone that tries to use these sciences to convince others who place a belief on Atlantis, is a waste of time, a useless waste of reason. Because if a believer in the reality of Atlantis dashes out in search of it, without first understanding Plato well, is heading towards a very steep precipice. And its a steeper one for those that confronts those that do not realize that, if reason alone cannot convince the believers otherwise, which is all that is need, then sciences, which are based on reason, will fail to convert even more miserably.

But then, if we see clearly with reason, what is the reason for all this so called "Debates" on Atlantis? A pastime, no doubt! As still, reason or not, people like to wonder, and so we wander all over the place and all over the earth, making points for or against a real Atlantis. And as I tried to point out, but only by parroting what I hear from the many others, this is getting too redundant. Running over the same place, over and over, like hamsters in a cage with an exerciser wheel. Sure we get laughs among us posting within the forum, but perhaps the ones only looking in may be laughing too, but maybe for another reason.

Should we not find some other twists with the story, and milk it in another way? That was all I came here to do, propose a change of music, as even good music, like good arguments, gets tiresome if played too often and repeated too soon. Are we going to generate a new thread for each hypothesis on the hundreds of proposed locations of Atlantis? Then we have to limit each thread to something like ten pages, as 66 pages on Atlantis in the Sahara is a place too far, even for Atlantis.

 

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cormac mac airt

Sounds like OVK more and more all the time. Apparently this has become the Philosophy and Psychology Forum while I had my back turned. 

cormac

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jaylemurph
2 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

Sounds like OVK more and more all the time. Apparently this has become the Philosophy and Psychology Forum while I had my back turned. 

cormac

I don't know. It is true that OVK is a self-important blowhard that loves to hear himself speak. At length. And lie grossly about his "qualifications." And he has been caught sneaking back in here under a different profile.

...but if Pettytalk /is/ OVK, given OVK's love of himself, I'd be shocked he wouldn't flaunt it to the extent he'd get thrown out. Again.

--Jaylemurph 

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Piney
On 12/5/2018 at 4:35 PM, cormac mac airt said:

Sounds like OVK more and more all the time. Apparently this has become the Philosophy and Psychology Forum while I had my back turned. 

cormac

 

On 12/5/2018 at 7:34 PM, jaylemurph said:

...but if Pettytalk /is/ OVK, given OVK's love of himself, I'd be shocked he wouldn't flaunt it to the extent he'd get thrown out. Again.

 

 

He's too ballsy to be Ron. Ronny's a coward, and he has also been sliding into psychology sub-forum as Roc Koch where I've been picking apart his posts and then he runs again.

also his writing style is wrong.

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cormac mac airt
1 hour ago, Piney said:

He's too ballsy to be Ron. Ronny's a coward, and he has also been sliding into psychology sub-forum as Roc Koch where I've been picking apart his posts and then he runs again.

also his writing style is wrong.

Doesn’t have to be Ron. Same pompous attitude though. 

cormac

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Piney
48 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Doesn’t have to be Ron. Same pompous attitude though. 

 

Another point. Ron's too lazy to read the classics. He just skims lamebrained theories and adds words to them. :yes:

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kmt_sesh
34 minutes ago, Piney said:

Another point. Ron's too lazy to read the classics. He just skims lamebrained theories and adds words to them. :yes:

Pettytalk is several orders of magnitude more intelligent than that guy.

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jaylemurph
13 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

Pettytalk is several orders of magnitude more intelligent than that guy.

Let us pray these men never meet. They'd suck out all the usable oxygen from the atmosphere blabbering at each other over inconsequential bull****.

--Jaylemurph

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Piney
3 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

Pettytalk is several orders of magnitude more intelligent than that guy.

True that. I just don't like throwing around accidental compliments. I have a reputation of d********edness to maintain. 

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Harte

Seems to me your reputation is safe.

Harte

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Piney
3 hours ago, Harte said:

Seems to me your reputation is safe.

Harte

:yes: 

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Windowpane
On 11/28/2018 at 12:09 AM, atalante said:

How the Discovery of ‘Atlantis’ Made Big News Then Faded Away (24 1 2019) 

Quote

Historic maps are vital in archaeology because they can tell you how the land was used recently, which can help you eliminate chasing wild-goose features. And that’s what the Merlin Burrows team ended up with.

https://ahotcupofjoe.net/2019/01/how-the-discovery-of-atlantis-made-big-news-then-faded-away/

 

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onlookerofmayhem
6 hours ago, Windowpane said:

How the Discovery of ‘Atlantis’ Made Big News Then Faded Away (24 1 2019) 

https://ahotcupofjoe.net/2019/01/how-the-discovery-of-atlantis-made-big-news-then-faded-away/

 

From your link :

"Our revision of Atlantica is going to reflect the new information we have obtained about the oval formations in the Donana. Occasionally, in the process of research, people make mistakes. In this case, the structures have apparently turned out to be large ecological structures created for biological research in 2005. Our film and new Trailer will reflect that new information, as we now know it."

Michael Donnellan (https://www.facebook.com/michael.donnellan/posts/10155704200841456

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Lord Harry

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ATLANTIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Jodie.Lynne
1 minute ago, Lord Harry said:

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ATLANTIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now, now, Harry, did you forget to take your meds?

 

>Who let Harry out of his restraints?<

 

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Jodie.Lynne
On ‎12‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 11:14 PM, kmt_sesh said:

Pettytalk is several orders of magnitude more intelligent than that guy.

If that's true, I don't ever want to run into this other guy.

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cormac mac airt
15 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

If that's true, I don't ever want to run into this other guy.

He doesn’t like running into us either. :devil:

cormac

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docyabut2

Image: Atlantis rings

I still think this could be Atlantis:)

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cormac mac airt
4 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

Image: Atlantis rings

I still think this could be Atlantis:)

And yet didn’t exist in the 1500s BC nor circa 9600 BC. 

cormac

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