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Van Gorp

Is this Atlantis ... at the coast of Spain?

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atalante
Posted (edited)
58 minutes ago, pbarosso said:

considering atlantis is not real, how can 165 pages be devoted to this topic.

 

This is now page 63.  But we have reserved an additional 102 pages for this topic. 

Edited by atalante
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RoofGardener
17 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Oh yeah? Then explain Aquaman! 

And if that's not proof enough, what about that show "Man From Atlantis"? 

He was't from Atlantis. He was from Central Casting. Surely the mustache gave it away ? 

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Pettytalk
2 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

Actually I OVERSTATED it, giving it the benefit of a doubt as to being wider than the actual canal, since Plato said no such thing as what was implied in the article. The picture gives a wall that is claimed to be Plato's 50 stadia in length but he DOESN'T say it's 50 stadia 'wide' as the article suggests, he says it's 50 STADIA LONG TO THE OUTER RING OF THE CITY. The width of the canal is only 300 feet.  300/5280 feet = 0.056 miles wide. It's not my fault you don't know the difference between length and width. 

The above was just to cover the canal, which as I said is nowhere near what the article claims. As to what Plato claims, that's entirely different and makes the article further laughable since he says: 

THIS is where your claim is embarrassingly insufficient as 50 stadia from the largest zone or harbor PLUS the radius of the center which is 2 1/2 stadia gives 52 1/2 stadia total radius. Circumference of which would be 2 X Pi X 52.5 (radius) = 329.7 stadia/37.9 miles in circumference. Now where was that 5 1/2 mile wall again, oh yeah, IT DIDN'T EXIST. :w00t:

cormac

BS excuses and back pedaling, as you are a total embarrassment to your cheering fans, although they too are covering up for your inapt reading and reasoning abilities. 

If you are going to participate on Plato's Atlantis, get wise to what he said and intended.

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RoofGardener
Posted (edited)

Atlantis only existed in the imagination of Plato. 

Anyone claiming that it has (or had) some sort of physical existence is deranged. And Mad. And Mad, and deranged. 

MAD TELL YOU. BWA HAAAAR HAAAAR.

(coff coff> 

Sorry, where where we ? 

Edited by RoofGardener
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cormac mac airt
8 minutes ago, Pettytalk said:

BS excuses and back pedaling, as you are a total embarrassment to your cheering fans, although they too are covering up for your inapt reading and reasoning abilities. 

If you are going to participate on Plato's Atlantis, get wise to what he said and intended.

You know nothing about Plato's Atlantis, other than the crap you've made up. You bastardize everything he said. Congratulations on your incompetence. You were wrong about the wall and you were wrong about the island. Deal with it. 

cormac

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Pettytalk
1 hour ago, pbarosso said:

considering atlantis is not real, how can 165 pages be devoted to this topic.

 

Considering that we do not consider the opinions of cynics with any real consideration of their considerations, I would say that your consideration is as good as any other cynical consideration already reverberating here. But do stay and help us swell the volume.

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Pettytalk
14 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

You know nothing about Plato's Atlantis, other than the crap you've made up. You bastardize everything he said. Congratulations on your incompetence. You were wrong about the wall and you were wrong about the island. Deal with it. 

cormac

 

25 minutes ago, Pettytalk said:
  2 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

Actually I OVERSTATED it, giving it the benefit of a doubt as to being wider than the actual canal, since Plato said no such thing as what was implied in the article. The picture gives a wall that is claimed to be Plato's 50 stadia in length but he DOESN'T say it's 50 stadia 'wide' as the article suggests, he says it's 50 STADIA LONG TO THE OUTER RING OF THE CITY. The width of the canal is only 300 feet.  300/5280 feet = 0.056 miles wide. It's not my fault you don't know the difference between length and width. 

The above was just to cover the canal, which as I said is nowhere near what the article claims. As to what Plato claims, that's entirely different and makes the article further laughable since he says: 

THIS is where your claim is embarrassingly insufficient as 50 stadia from the largest zone or harbor PLUS the radius of the center which is 2 1/2 stadia gives 52 1/2 stadia total radius. Circumference of which would be 2 X Pi X 52.5 (radius) = 329.7 stadia/37.9 miles in circumference. Now where was that 5 1/2 mile wall again, oh yeah, IT DIDN'T EXIST. :w00t:

cormac

This is the picture and the article you are quoting.

Scientists are yet to find conclusive evidence that Atlantis existed. Many scholars believe Plato invented the story as a way to present his philosophical theories.

Picture shows what UK firm believes are the remnants of the harbour wall of Atlantis which was said to five-and-a-half miles long. Plato wrote that this wall was '50 stadia long' which would make it around five-and-a-half miles (9 km) in length
  •  

Picture shows what UK firm believes are the remnants of the harbour wall of Atlantis which was said to five-and-a-half miles long. Plato wrote that this wall was '50 stadia long' which would make it around five-and-a-half miles (9 km) in length

Where does the article say anything about 50 stadia wide?

And where do make 300 feet width into this? This is what you posted.  "Sorry folks but that is entirely BS as the Ptolemaic/Attic stadion would make it 2,529 feet/0.48 miles in length which means the originator is only wrong BY 5 MILES."  You are also referring to length, and not width, oh great geometer!

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cormac mac airt
Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, Pettytalk said:


This is the picture and the article you are quoting.

Scientists are yet to find conclusive evidence that Atlantis existed. Many scholars believe Plato invented the story as a way to present his philosophical theories.

Picture shows what UK firm believes are the remnants of the harbour wall of Atlantis which was said to five-and-a-half miles long. Plato wrote that this wall was '50 stadia long' which would make it around five-and-a-half miles (9 km) in length
  •  

Picture shows what UK firm believes are the remnants of the harbour wall of Atlantis which was said to five-and-a-half miles long. Plato wrote that this wall was '50 stadia long' which would make it around five-and-a-half miles (9 km) in length

Where does the article say anything about 50 stadia wide?

And where do make 300 feet width into this? This is what you posted.  "Sorry folks but that is entirely BS as the Ptolemaic/Attic stadion would make it 2,529 feet/0.48 miles in length which means the originator is only wrong BY 5 MILES."  You are also referring to length, and not width, oh great geometer!

No, THIS is the picture I'm using:

6223606-6393371-Pictured_are_a_selection_of_the_sites_studied_by_the_team_at_Mer-a-78_1542297725571.jpg.7a3a4b95175e7cb1d403623404cd0e30.jpg

The above alleged wall (solid line) IS NOT what Plato claimed, as his 50 stadia wall DID NOT cover the entrance to Atlantis, it went FROM the sea TO the outer harbor of the city and was only 300 feet wide which is where my dimension comes in. You're accepting the picture as true whereas I'm taking thing from what Plato said. The picture is a lie. The above picture is NOT remotely 300 feet wide which is the width Plato himself gives. The writer disregarded WHAT Plato said were the dimensions of the wall and you in your ignorance bought it hook, line and sinker. Neither end of the above solid line goes to the rings of Atlantis which they MUST in order to agree with Plato. :rolleyes:

You want to consider me wrong, so be it. I'll accept being wrong by a factor of 10 knowing that YOU are wrong by a factor 96.8 to what Plato said which was 300 feet wide, as the above alleged wall DOES NOT go to any Outer ring of Atlantis (or anything else for that matter).

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt
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Piney
1 hour ago, Pettytalk said:

If you are going to participate on Plato's Atlantis, get wise to what he said and intended.

:lol:

Pot kettle again! 

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cormac mac airt
Posted (edited)

It should also be pointed out that the OP's link says the following: 

Quote

Experts at Merlin Burrows believe the flooded ruins of the legendary city are off the coast of southern Spain.

The location is somewhere north of the city of Cadiz, Andalucía, centred around the Doñana National Park, which the historians believe was once a vast inland sea.

That is OFF THE COAST of here: 

1102266417_OffthecoastofSpainaroundDonanaNationalPark.thumb.jpg.cbebf5675aaa1d758e56bf33325fe1ce.jpg

If the capital city of Atlantis was ALREADY "off the coast of Spain" as the article states then it was nowhere near where the previous picture placed the wall as it would then have been SOUTH of the wall: 

6223606-6393371-Pictured_are_a_selection_of_the_sites_studied_by_the_team_at_Mer-a-78_1542297725571.jpg.587f020f75d142afff3c9d7c332bac71.jpg

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt
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Hanslune
5 hours ago, pbarosso said:

considering atlantis is not real, how can 165 pages be devoted to this topic.

 

Its one of those subjects that people never stop making stuff up about and they go on and on about.

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Hanslune
2 hours ago, Piney said:

:lol:

Pot kettle again! 

Ask PT again why he cannot read or speak Attic the language of Plato...LOL

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jaylemurph

Even Lord of the Rings fan can speak Quenya... 

—Jaylemurph 

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Swede
6 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

Considering that we do not consider the opinions of cynics with any real consideration of their considerations, I would say that your consideration is as good as any other cynical consideration already reverberating here. But do stay and help us swell the volume.

Would one be utilizing the royal "we"? Elsewise, one would appear to be speaking for a distinct minority whose informational base would appear to be limited.

.

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jaylemurph
4 hours ago, Swede said:

Would one be utilizing the royal "we"? Elsewise, one would appear to be speaking for a distinct minority whose informational base would appear to be limited.

.

He thinks he’s Jesus, so maybe God the Father and the Holy Ghost are helping split the rent...

—Jaylemurph 

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Piney
4 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

He thinks he’s Jesus, so maybe God the Father and the Holy Ghost are helping split the rent...

He thinks he's Plato and working for Jesus.

But only the White Jesus, who rides a white stallion......

....*I should of saved that bloody ridiculous picture. It gave me such a giggle*

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Pettytalk
7 hours ago, Swede said:

Would one be utilizing the royal "we"? Elsewise, one would appear to be speaking for a distinct minority whose informational base would appear to be limited.

.

It's not a question of the royal we, as much as it's all about the royal shaft of the king's chambers of that old and falling apart pyramid with a chimera in front of it. But the great corporation, "ink" LTD, although a global allegory giant now, will eventually be taken down by a little Ma and Pa shop.

 

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Pettytalk
2 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

He thinks he’s Jesus, so maybe God the Father and the Holy Ghost are helping split the rent...

—Jaylemurph 

You are not providing what you were asked in reference to this. You have failed to show just where I have claimed to be Jesus, even in jest. You must be lying about it.

And if you are not lying but merely assumed it, just think of a particular scenario, if I were actually what you erroneously assumed.

This scenario.

On judgement day you came up in front of my Father, and I being your assumed Jesus, and therefore your assigned legal counselor for your defense, what are the odds that I would do my best to defend you? 

Matthew 10:33

But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in heaven.

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atalante
Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

....The other sub-kings ruled "divers islands". Critias even says: 

[          ]

Nowhere does it say what happened to Eumelus' portion upon his death but since it states the above it can be inferred that Eumelus' portion went to Atlas' reigning descendants. 

cormac

cormac,

Your proposal, that Atlas extorted the original inheritances of his 9 siblings, is poorly chosen.

 
You championed a vague translation of this particular passage, 114d (i.e Jowett's 114d).  Then you twisted the passage's meaning, to infer extortion.  Then you needed an additional change - to claim that the phrase "all these" should mean "all these except Atlas". 

{Jowett 114d} Now Atlas had a numerous and honourable family, and they retained the kingdom, the eldest son handing it on to his eldest for many generations;

 
 
But the Bury translation of 114d explains far more elegantly Plato's statement, about was handed down uniquely among descendants of Atlas:  merely the "scepter" or diadem (i.e symbolic of a leadership office) was uniquely handed down among Atlas's descendants.  
 
[114d] but it was the eldest, who, as king, always passed on the scepter to the eldest of his sons, and thus they preserved the sovereignty for many generations
 
ba^sil-eia_ , Ion. ba^sil-ēiē , ,
A.kingdom, dominion, Hdt.1.11, etc.; “paidos  b.” Heraclit.52hereditary monarchy, opp. “turannisepi rhētois gerasi patrikai b.Th.1.13; “basileias eidē tettara” Arist.Pol.1285b20 prōtēpoliteia meta tas b. after the age of monarchies, ib.1297b17: metaph., “epoiēsen hēmas b.” Apoc.1.6; “btōn ouranōnEv.Matt.3.2tou theou ib.6.33, etc.
2. kingly office, “bkai stratēgia” Arist.Pol.1273a37.
3. at Athens, the office of the archon basileus,Paus.1.3.1.
4. Pass., being ruled by a king, “tēs hup' ekeinoubasileias” Isoc.9.43.
II. diadem, D.S.1.47OGI90.43 (Rosetta).
III. reign, ib.331.40 (Pergam.), D.S.17.1POxy.1257.7(iii A. D.); so hai b. the reigns of the Kings, title of book of VTaccession to the throneBGU646.12 (ii A. D.).
IV. concrete, His Majesty, LXX 4 Ki.11.11 Ma.6.47.
Edited by atalante
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RoofGardener
Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, atalante said:

cormac,

Your proposal, that Atlas extorted the original inheritances of his 9 siblings, is poorly chosen.

 
You championed a vague translation of this particular passage, 114d (i.e Jowett's 114d).  Then you twisted the passage's meaning, to infer extortion.  Then you needed an additional change - to claim that the phrase "all these" should mean "all these except Atlas". 

{Jowett 114d} Now Atlas had a numerous and honourable family, and they retained the kingdom, the eldest son handing it on to his eldest for many generations;

 
 
But the Bury translation of 114d explains far more elegantly Plato's statement, about was handed down uniquely among descendants of Atlas:  merely the "scepter" or diadem (i.e symbolic of a leadership office) was uniquely handed down among Atlas's descendants.  
 
[114d] but it was the eldest, who, as king, always passed on the scepter to the eldest of his sons, and thus they preserved the sovereignty for many generations
 
ba^sil-eia_ , Ion. ba^sil-ēiē , ,
A.kingdom, dominion, Hdt.1.11, etc.; “paidos  b.” Heraclit.52hereditary monarchy, opp. “turannisepi rhētois gerasi patrikai b.Th.1.13; “basileias eidē tettara” Arist.Pol.1285b20 prōtēpoliteia meta tas b. after the age of monarchies, ib.1297b17: metaph., “epoiēsen hēmas b.” Apoc.1.6; “btōn ouranōnEv.Matt.3.2tou theou ib.6.33, etc.
2. kingly office, “bkai stratēgia” Arist.Pol.1273a37.
3. at Athens, the office of the archon basileus,Paus.1.3.1.
4. Pass., being ruled by a king, “tēs hup' ekeinoubasileias” Isoc.9.43.
II. diadem, D.S.1.47OGI90.43 (Rosetta).
III. reign, ib.331.40 (Pergam.), D.S.17.1POxy.1257.7(iii A. D.); so hai b. the reigns of the Kings, title of book of VTaccession to the throneBGU646.12 (ii A. D.).
IV. concrete, His Majesty, LXX 4 Ki.11.11 Ma.6.47.

*deleted*

Edited by RoofGardener
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Pettytalk
8 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Umm.. where does Atlas come into it ? Plato never mentioned Atlas. Nor did he mention any 'family tree' relating to the kings of Atlantis, his imaginary country/island. 

Another of Plato's dummies showing us their wit, I suppose? Hey dude, better do your gardening on the ground, and not on a roof top, as you are liable to fall off and bloody your head. You certainly don't belong in any high and serious discussion on Plato's Atlantis, if you are seriously putting that forth.

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RoofGardener
2 minutes ago, Pettytalk said:

Another of Plato's dummies showing us their wit, I suppose? Hey dude, better do your gardening on the ground, and not on a roof top, as you are liable to fall off and bloody your head. You certainly don't belong in any high and serious discussion on Plato's Atlantis, if you are seriously putting that forth.

My apologies Pettytalk. Plato does indeed mention Atlas; in Critias. But so what ? Would you like me to read out the genealogy of King  Fëanor, son of Finwë, King of the Noldor, and the creation of the Sillmarils ? It's about as relevant to anything. 

No... Atlantis is NOT at the coast of Spain. Or anywhere else. 

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Pettytalk
16 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

Even Lord of the Rings fan can speak Quenya... 

—Jaylemurph 

I was going to let this ride, but seeing how some of your friends and co-thinkers don't understand Plato's writings, I would suggest that you all learn Plato's writings in any language it was translated, and choosing the language you understand best, if you are bi-lingual, or multi-lingual. I believe most of the skeptics/cynics around here seem to be parroting the term, allegory, and yet know little of Plato's works themselves.  Such a sorry state!

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Pettytalk
5 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

My apologies Pettytalk. Plato does indeed mention Atlas; in Critias. But so what ? Would you like me to read out the genealogy of King  Fëanor, son of Finwë, King of the Noldor, and the creation of the Sillmarils ? It's about as relevant to anything. 

No... Atlantis is NOT at the coast of Spain. Or anywhere else. 

Apologies accepted, partially.

And I agree it's not in Spain, and I say that over and over myself, but I would not go as far as not being anywhere else. As somewhere in time it exists, and very evidently too.

But please, stop repeating things you have heard, and go read Plato for yourself. You might even learn something from him which may be of service to you, fable or not. But don't isolate yourself to the story of Atlantis, when it comes to Plato.

Best regards!

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RoofGardener
2 minutes ago, Pettytalk said:

Apologies accepted, partially.

And I agree it's not in Spain, and I say that over and over myself, but I would not go as far as not being anywhere else. As somewhere in time it exists, and very evidently too.

.....

"very evidently so" ? That means there is evidence for it. But there is ZERO evidence for Atlantis. The first person to mention it was Plato. Nobody else in his time period.. or for 1500 years afterwards ... makes any mention of it. 

The Atlanteans where supposed to have conquered Europe and North Africa with their armies, being stopped ultimately only by Athens. Where are the artifacts of such an invasion ? Where are the folklore or  legends of such an invasion, or even physical remains ? 

Atlantis was supposed to be the size of Asia and Libya (Africa) combined. When it sank, it was supposed to leave impassible shallows. Where are these shallows ? Where is the historic mention of any such shallows ? Where are they myths and legends of such shallows ? 

Let me put it another way: can you give ANY evidence for the existence of Atlantis, other than Plato's two stories ? Because I can offer plenty of evidence that the events mentioned in Critias and Timaeus could not possibly have happened ? 

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