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Van Gorp

Is this Atlantis ... at the coast of Spain?

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jmccr8
59 minutes ago, Pettytalk said:

Baby, there is always room for you there, all of you! My Father's house has many mansions, and if it were not so, I would not tell you this. Besides, Socrates has to be God, if I really turn out to be Plato after all. Besides, Jesus is not God The Father, as that's all petty talk about the trinity. And the Holy Ghost is only a metaphor about the soul and its reincarnation, The Holy Soul. And the story of Atlantis is all about proving the existence of the soul and the myriad of reincarnations it goes through. The body is only an outer covering for the soul, like clothes to the physical body. After all, would Socrates have wasted his last day in that physical life trying to discuss and argue in favor of the existence of the soul, and its immortality? Remember the Republic? And the connection to the Atlantis dialogues? The Phaedo is there to show many things, but more so for showing that a man, knowing that his physical death was set for the end of the day, would spend that last day enjoying what he considered more enjoyable, or more passionate about, or a combination of what the man had considered worth living all his life....reason, justice, truth, and the love of those 3, which are parts of what Socrates considered as  True Philosophy, along with the absolutes of those. The absolute truth of the absolute existence of the soul, its immortality.

All of Plato's work, reading between the lines, and into the many layered, and deeper meaning, boils down to that, in the end. Proving reincarnation through the existence of the soul and its immortality. All you smart people here do not perceive that we are all gods, the immortals.

And for you science minded souls, the God particle, that essence which cannot be further subdivided, and is the current hot quest of science, thought to be that simple and uncompounded substance from which our physical universe is built with, and although not known to them, it is really the soul they are seeking.

And I don't know why the mollusk is trying to make me into Jesus, as I'm fine with just being Plato, because that's crazy enough for me. But if I would ever contemplate and entertain the idea as having being Jesus, I would request a straight jacket myself, with my last ounce of reason.

Plato's Republic.

True, I said; if the inherent natural vice or evil of the soul is unable to kill or
destroy her, hardly will that which is appointed to be the destruction of some
other body, destroy a soul or anything else except that of which it was appointed
to be the destruction.
Yes, that can hardly be.
But the soul which cannot be destroyed by an evil, whether inherent or
external, must exist for ever, and if existing for ever, must be immortal?
Certainly.
That is the conclusion, I said; and, if a true conclusion, then the souls must
always be the same, for if none be destroyed they will not diminish in number.
Neither will they increase, for the increase of the immortal natures must come
from something mortal, and all things would thus end in immortality.
Very true.
But this we cannot believe–reason will not allow us– any more than we can
believe the soul, in her truest nature, to be full of variety and difference and
dissimilarity.
What do you mean? he said.
The soul, I said, being, as is now proven, immortal, must be the fairest of
compositions and cannot be compounded of many elements?
Certainly not.
Her immortality is demonstrated by the previous argument, and there are
many other proofs; but to see her as she really is, not as we now behold her,
marred by communion with the body and other miseries, you must contemplate
her with the eye of reason, in her original purity; and then her beauty will be
revealed, and justice and injustice and all the things which we have described
will be manifested more clearly. Thus far, we have spoken the truth concerning
her as she appears at present, but we must remember also that we have seen
her only in a condition which may be compared to that of the sea-god Glaucus,
whose original image can hardly be discerned because his natural members are
broken off and crushed and damaged by the waves in all sorts of ways, and
incrustations have grown over them of seaweed and shells and stones, so that
he is more like some monster than he is to his own natural form. And the soul
which we behold is in a similar condition, disfigured by ten thousand ills. But
not there, Glaucon, not there must we look.
Where then?
At her love of wisdom. Let us see whom she affects, and what society and
converse she seeks in virtue of her near kindred with the immortal and eternal
and divine; also how different she would become if wholly following this superior
principle, and borne by a divine impulse out of the ocean in which she now is,
and disengaged from the stones and shells and things of earth and rock which in
wild variety spring up around her because she feeds upon earth, and is overgrown
by the good things of this life as they are termed: then you would see her as
she is, and know whether she has one shape only or many, or what her nature
is. Of her affections and of the forms which she takes in this present life I think
that we have now said enough......

Yes, I said, my dear Glaucon, for great is the issue at stake, greater than
appears, whether a man is to be good or bad. And what will any one be profited
if under the influence of honour or money or power, aye, or under the excitement
of
poetry, he neglect justice and virtue?
Yes, he said; I have been convinced by the argument, as I believe that any
one else would have been.
And yet no mention has been made of the greatest prizes and rewards which
await virtue.
What, are there any greater still? If there are, they must be of an inconceivable
greatness.
Why, I said, what was ever great in a short time? The whole period of
threescore years and ten is surely but a little thing in comparison with eternity?
Say rather ‘nothing,’ he replied.
And should an immortal being seriously think of this little space rather than
of the whole?
Of the whole, certainly. But why do you ask?
Are you not aware, I said, that the soul of man is immortal and imperishable?
He looked at me in astonishment, and said: No, by heaven: And are you
really prepared to maintain this?

Yes, I said, I ought to be, and you too–there is no difficulty in proving it.
I see a great difficulty; but I should like to hear you state this argument of
which you make so light.

 

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Van Gorp

I invite everyone to stick to the subject.

Train yourself in self-control when feeling the urge to post bs comments that have nothing to do with the subject, but only the aim attracting cheers from your cheerleaders.

If not, the mods will be urged to switch gears before ultimately closing the thread. I know this is the aim for some.

Honestly, i can't understand the mods tolerate that behaviour you see happening here in different threads all over again.  Unless ...

The thread is way to big, for the usefull comments to pick out. So, act like an addult and post only on the subject.

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Piney
55 minutes ago, Van Gorp said:

The thread is way to big, for the usefull comments to pick out. So, act like an addult and post only on the subject.

OK

Since Plato said he was pretty much making it up as a allegory against Athens' arrogance and you can't find it in any Balkan or even Indo-Iranic-Aryan-European mythology I would say it's not in Spain.

The idea of Atlantis as a "real place" started with one American idiot named Ignatius Donnelly. Prior to that is was only a allegory. Even to fools. 

Case closed. :yes:

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Pettytalk
3 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Related image

You are no better than those members of ISIS or of the Taliban, as you have defaced a great work of Art. You do realize that Plato is holding the Timaeus, (Atlantis) and Aristotle is holding the Nicomachean Ethics.

Aristotle first used the term ethics to name a field of study developed by his predecessors Socrates and Plato. Philosophical ethics is the attempt to offer a rational response to the question of how humans should best live. Aristotle regarded ethics and politics as two related but separate fields of study, since ethics examines the good of the individual, while politics examines the good of the city-state.

It all goes back to the Republic, the center piece.  It's all about Justice, Absolute JUSTICE for the individual, and for the nations too, as a whole.

Glaucon and the rest entreated me by all means not to let the question
drop, but to proceed in the investigation. They wanted to arrive at the truth,
first, about the nature of justice and injustice, and secondly, about their relative
advantages. I told them, what I– really thought, that the enquiry would be of
a serious nature, and would require very good eyes. Seeing then, I said, that
we are no great wits, I think that we had better adopt a method which I may
illustrate thus; suppose that a short-sighted person had been asked by some one
to read small letters from a distance; and it occurred to some one else that they
might be found in another place which was larger and in which the letters were
larger– if they were the same and he could read the larger letters first, and then
proceed to the lesser–this would have been thought a rare piece of good fortune.
Very true, said Adeimantus; but how does the illustration apply to our
enquiry?
I will tell you, I replied; justice, which is the subject of our enquiry, is, as
you know, sometimes spoken of as the virtue of an individual, and sometimes
as the virtue of a State.

True, he replied.
And is not a State larger than an individual?
It is.
Then in the larger the quantity of justice is likely to be larger and more
easily discernible. I propose therefore that we enquire into the nature of justice
and injustice, first as they appear in the State, and secondly in the individual,
proceeding from the greater to the lesser and comparing them.
That, he said, is an excellent proposal.
And if we imagine the State in process of creation, we shall see the justice
and injustice of the State in process of creation also.
I dare say.

Aristotle was a staunch believer of the soul. And you don't truly understand the artist's rendition here, as he too was divinely inspired.

Raffaello has Aristotle point down to indicate that if man will not live by the ethics laid down by Socrates, there is hell below awaiting us with its delightful and exquisitely painful caresses. And Plato is pointing up because if you believe pettytalk on Atlantis, the delights of heaven await us, which are indescribable, but absolutely delicious.beyond your limited, and wildest imagination.

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cormac mac airt

Plato's Atlantis wouldn't have been in Spain regardless as: 

1)  Plato DOESN'T locate it in Spain.

2)  The Gulf of Tartessos wasn't of any meaningful size until circa 6900 BP/4900 BC. Much too late to be relevant to Plato's Atlantis. 

3)  The oldest catastrophic tsunami is recorded in the Valdelagrana spit-barrier system, and dated at ca.7000 - 6800 BP. (5000 - 4800 BC, also too late)

4)  Sea level rise in that area between 13,000 BP and 7500 BP/11,000 and 5500 BC is only on the scale of some 7.3 - 8.5 meters per 1000 years which, at maximum, translates to about 1/3 INCH per year. Not remotely relevant to the Atlantis story. 

https://www.academia.edu/39149249/ABRIL_J._Ma._PERIÁÑEZ_R._ESCACENA_J.L._2013_Modeling_tides_and_tsunami_propagation_in_the_former_Gulf_of_Tartessos_as_a_tool_for_Archaeological_Science_

cormac

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Piney
9 minutes ago, Pettytalk said:

You are no better than those members of ISIS or of the Taliban, as you have defaced a great work of Art.

:lol: This statement is ridiculous! 

You do realize they destroyed the originals. 

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jaylemurph
23 minutes ago, Piney said:

:lol: This statement is ridiculous! 

You do realize they destroyed the originals. 

Since he’s allegedly Jesus, why can’t he just magick some up, a la loaves and fishes. 

...unless he’s lying about being Jesus. 

—Jaylemurph 

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Pettytalk
1 hour ago, Van Gorp said:

I invite everyone to stick to the subject.

Train yourself in self-control when feeling the urge to post bs comments that have nothing to do with the subject, but only the aim attracting cheers from your cheerleaders.

If not, the mods will be urged to switch gears before ultimately closing the thread. I know this is the aim for some.

Honestly, i can't understand the mods tolerate that behaviour you see happening here in different threads all over again.  Unless ...

The thread is way to big, for the usefull comments to pick out. So, act like an addult and post only on the subject.

Adults here? You have got to be kidding! Some mollusks here consider a faint and blurred nipple under a dress too adult for the kiddies running around here.And if he had not made such a fuss, none would have noticed it.

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Pettytalk
33 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Plato's Atlantis wouldn't have been in Spain regardless as: 

1)  Plato DOESN'T locate it in Spain.

2)  The Gulf of Tartessos wasn't of any meaningful size until circa 6900 BP/4900 BC. Much too late to be relevant to Plato's Atlantis. 

3)  The oldest catastrophic tsunami is recorded in the Valdelagrana spit-barrier system, and dated at ca.7000 - 6800 BP. (5000 - 4800 BC, also too late)

4)  Sea level rise in that area between 13,000 BP and 7500 BP/11,000 and 5500 BC is only on the scale of some 7.3 - 8.5 meters per 1000 years which, at maximum, translates to about 1/3 INCH per year. Not remotely relevant to the Atlantis story. 

https://www.academia.edu/39149249/ABRIL_J._Ma._PERIÁÑEZ_R._ESCACENA_J.L._2013_Modeling_tides_and_tsunami_propagation_in_the_former_Gulf_of_Tartessos_as_a_tool_for_Archaeological_Science_

cormac

Wasted time! Take it from me, it's not any part nor even the whole of Spain. Clearly stated in many ways. Besides, why are you being so technical and historical with what you firmly believe to be an allegory?

Are you perhaps catching Atlantis fever? You do realize that you are showing first signs of this dreaded illness?

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cormac mac airt
1 minute ago, Pettytalk said:

Wasted time! Take it from me, it's not any part nor even the whole of Spain. Clearly stated in many ways. Besides, why are you being so technical and historical with what you firmly believe to be an allegory?

Are you perhaps catching Atlantis fever? You do realize that you are showing first signs of this dreaded illness?

Because the evidence ITSELF shows that no such place as Plato described existed, nor could have existed. 

cormac

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Pettytalk
1 minute ago, cormac mac airt said:

Because the evidence ITSELF shows that no such place as Plato described existed, nor could have existed. 

cormac

And I ask again, why are you using history and other sciences to prove that an allegory never existed? That's the sigh of the fever starting to effect your mind. I think this dreaded virus can travel through the virtual world in reality. You have caught it. Better take your mind off of Atlantis immediately, before it's too late. Remember there is no cure, but you can just keep it where it is, if you never have one single thought on it, pro or con from now on. The disease can go forward, but never regress.

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cormac mac airt
1 minute ago, Pettytalk said:

And I ask again, why are you using history and other sciences to prove that an allegory never existed? That's the sigh of the fever starting to effect your mind. I think this dreaded virus can travel through the virtual world in reality. You have caught it. Better take your mind off of Atlantis immediately, before it's too late. Remember there is no cure, but you can just keep it where it is, if you never have one single thought on it, pro or con from now on. The disease can go forward, but never regress.

Why are you?: 

1)  Pretending to be Plato. 

2)  Pretending that Plato was talking about America in the future when, whether or not Atlantis existed, he specifically stated that events associated with same happened 9000+ years IN THE PAST?

cormac

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Pettytalk
37 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

Since he’s allegedly Jesus, why can’t he just magick some up, a la loaves and fishes. 

...unless he’s lying about being Jesus. 

—Jaylemurph 

Perhaps I can do something about the bread, as I come from a long line of bakers, which goes back more than a silly 300 years. But as far as the fish, I think there are plenty in this pond, starting with you. Although you are just a mollusk, a sea snail.

Five loaves it was, I think!

 

DSCF0092.JPG

DSCF0339.JPG

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Pettytalk
21 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Why are you?: 

1)  Pretending to be Plato. 

2)  Pretending that Plato was talking about America in the future when, whether or not Atlantis existed, he specifically stated that events associated with same happened 9000+ years IN THE PAST?

cormac

Whose pretending? So far I have given plausible scenarios for each detail I've covered on this forum on Atlantis. It's not my problem you don't read and understand me. That was clear when you made the outrageous statement that I never mentioned Atlas. But Apology accepted for that already. However you should really read that work too. Have you?

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cormac mac airt
18 minutes ago, Pettytalk said:

Whose pretending? So far I have given plausible scenarios for each detail I've covered on this forum on Atlantis. It's not my problem you don't read and understand me. That was clear when you made the outrageous statement that I never mentioned Atlas. But Apology accepted for that already. However you should really read that work too. Have you?

You are. I wouldn't call what you've posted "plausible" by any means. More like a gross mangling of what Plato said. After all, you DID recently say "Do you really see a point in anything I post? I wish I did!" in another thread so I take it as an open admission to trolling the forum, which BTW is against the rules. Besides, I don't understand "delusional" which is apparently your native language. So far you haven't been relevant to what Plato said but have made it up as you go along. I've read both Critias and Timaeus and fully expect you will continue to mangle them both. 

cormac

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Piney
1 hour ago, Pettytalk said:

https://thenextweb.com/insider/2019/07/02/google-3d-prints-replica-of-historic-assyrian-statue-destroyed-by-isis-in-2015/

Google 3D-prints replica of historic Assyrian statue destroyed by ISIS in 2015

So what does this have to do with Jay's meme? Or what I said about them destroying the originals? :rolleyes:

@jmccr8

1 hour ago, Pettytalk said:

Whose pretending? So far I have given plausible scenarios for each detail I've covered on this forum on Atlantis.

Plausible?  You don't have any proof your Plato. :yes:

Mass comparison, twisting the details to fit N.A. including changing your own story when called out on utter B.S is "plausible"? 

Saying it's "prophecy" when Plato said no such thing is "plausible"? 

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jaylemurph
2 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

Adults here? You have got to be kidding! Some mollusks here consider a faint and blurred nipple under a dress too adult for the kiddies running around here.And if he had not made such a fuss, none would have noticed it.

Saru removed that sua sponte. You’re not very bright and you’re so bad at social cues I can’t help but wonder if you’re on the spectrum, but even you must understand personally deriding the choices of the site owner is unlikely to do anything good for you.  

But I’m 100% behind you doing anything asinine enough for a perma-ban so please do go on. 

—Jaylemurph 

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Awlsew
12 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Awlsew

Well if it had a vowel between the r and c then maybe.

jmccr8

Hello. True. There are exceptions in English though. 

 

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Swede
10 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

Did you say something important? I could not quite grasp the essence and intent. Has it to do with Atlantis in Spain? And if it's a doghouse for my dog, after the shingles are on, please coat them with red cherry marmalade rather than plain pancake syrup

An attempt at wit? How droll.

.

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atalante
Posted (edited)
On 8/13/2019 at 1:24 PM, cormac mac airt said:

.... If Eumelus was not "heir apparent' then there would have been no reason to single him out as to his importance in the Atlantis story above his lesser siblings. 

cormac

I see that you wandered off-topic; ADD. 

The place-name Gadeira was well known among the Greeks of Plato's era.  By contrast, Eumelus is merely a veneer that is superimposed on Gadeira/Gades/Cadiz in the Critias dialogue. 

Strabo 3.5.5 pointed out that Pindar (ca 480 BC) had discussed "Gates of Gades".  http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0239%3Abook%3D3%3Achapter%3D5%3Asection%3D5

 

Herodotus 4.8.1-2 said:

[1]  ...the story told by the Greeks who live in Pontus is as follows. Heracles, driving the cattle of Geryones, came to this land, which was then desolate, but is now inhabited by the Scythians. [2] Geryones lived west of the Pontus,1 settled in the island called by the Greeks Erythea, on the shore of Ocean near Gadira, outside the pillars of Heracles.    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126%3Abook%3D4%3Achapter%3D8%3Asection%3D2

 

Thus to describe a territory for Gadeirus/(Eumelus), Plato simply paraphrased details that had previously been discussed by Pindar and Herodotus (and perhaps also discussed by others). 

Plato's original Greek audience would have understood that the territory of Gadeirus/Eumelus extended "from" Heracles's arrival-point in southern Spain (which Hesiod had called Erythia Island) - and the territory extended "to" the place modern people call Cadiz.

Edited by atalante

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Piney
2 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

I can’t help but wonder if you’re on the spectrum

Hey now! Don't insult us Allzizzum Peeps! :yes:

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jaylemurph
22 minutes ago, Piney said:

Hey now! Don't insult us Allzizzum Peeps! :yes:

I read that but saw “auzizzum” and thought, “Being Australian is a disease now?!

—Jaylemurph 

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Trelane
Posted (edited)

This is how this thread feels now after all the madness posted....

IMG_164243183725903.jpeg

Edited by Trelane
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Piney
20 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

I read that but saw “auzizzum” and thought, “Being Australian is a disease now?!

I think so. Just don't tell @Sir Wearer of Hats  :unsure2:

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