Is this Atlantis ... at the coast of Spain?

[+Pettytalk]

8 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

< growls > 

< bites @Pettytalk's ankles. > 

I'm not worries about a little bite, as my tetanus shot is still current, and I'm already immune to rabies. But just to be certain, you don't get angry at the sight of water? We were discussing topic material, those them there-pelagos, and them there-okeanos.

Bite into the topic, if you must, not me. And you can growl all day long, as my dogs do that to me already when I tell them I cannot take them for a walk because I'm busy with other virtual animals.

[Piney]

46 minutes ago, Pettytalk said:

I did not know that it was a sign of truth in having others to agree. What foolish notions you have. Four wasted philosophies.You will recycle for certain!

Truth needs proof which you have not provided. 

Recycled where? North American is about to be quaked and flooded a'la Atlantis. 

[Kenemet]

3 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

The point being put forth by me to mellon man was that, without knowing the truth one cannot really be wise. And that point was put forth not to argue the origin and meaning of the word philosophy. Which I was reminded by Mellon that it is an Ancient Greek word that combines the term, philo, which is love, and the term sophia, which the man said was wisdom or learning.   Now, if indeed wisdom and learning are the same thing, according to mellon, since he has given us the option to understand sophia to one or the other, I believe your argument would be best put to the mellon man, since "to learn" is really meant as the acquisition of knowledge. 

Many thanks for the thoughtful answer.

I shall be brief (headed off to a family event), but what struck me when I read your response was the difference between information, knowledge, and wisdom.  For example, an "autistic savant" (what used to be called in our day, an "idiot savant" -- link for non-English speakers who may not be familiar with our term: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savant_syndrome) has detailed information about one thing but isn't considered "wise" or as someone who has wisdom.  And there's "truth" which may be considered true at one time (Sun and planets revolve around Earth) but is overturned later.

...however, as you pointed out, we're hunting far away from the topic which is Atlantis on the coast of Spain (but such peregrinations are always alluring.)  

[jmccr8]

Do these Atlantaholics Anonymous meetings ever get past step one?

jmccr8

[atalante]

On 9/1/2019 at 9:50 AM, Harte said:

It is my understanding that in Homer's era Okeanos was present in ALL surface water, fresh or salt.

Harte

Harte, 
I disagree with your suggestion that the mythical realm of Oceanus initially included salt-water (in Homer's era).

 

https://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanOkeanos.html

https://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanisTethys.html  

 

The daughters of these two Titans were: clouds, and springs.  

Tethys, in effect, represented (fresh) ground water and rainfall (from clouds).  

 

The sons of Oceanus included the group of River Gods; that is why Oceanus was conceptualized as a gigantic river.  

 

 

 

 

Edited September 2, 2019 by atalante

[+Pettytalk]

4 hours ago, Piney said:

Truth needs proof which you have not provided. 

Recycled where? North American is about to be quaked and flooded a'la Atlantis. 

Truth is a funny thing, and sometimes it may look funny, sound crazy, taste bitter, feel wrong, and smell bad. 

"I look for truth and find that I get damned".

[Piney]

8 minutes ago, Pettytalk said:

Truth is a funny thing, and sometimes it may look funny, sound crazy, taste bitter, feel wrong, and smell bad. 

"I look for truth and find that I get damned".

From the amount of lies you've told here. You wouldn't know. 

[Harte]

10 hours ago, Mellon Man said:

Was this book presented as fiction or non-fiction? Sadly, it doesnt ring any bells. 

I believe he is sarcastically referring to the Lord of the Rings trilogy.

Harte

[Harte]

3 hours ago, atalante said:

Harte, 
I disagree with your suggestion that the mythical realm of Oceanus initially included salt-water (in Homer's era).

 

https://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanOkeanos.html

https://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanisTethys.html  

 

The daughters of these two Titans were: clouds, and springs.  

Tethys, in effect, represented (fresh) ground water and rainfall (from clouds).  

 

The sons of Oceanus included the group of River Gods; that is why Oceanus was conceptualized as a gigantic river. 

 

From your first link:

Quote

OKEANOS (Oceanus) was the primordial Titan god of the great, earth-encircling River Okeanos, font of all of the earth's fresh-water - rivers, wells, springs and rain-clouds.

Also:

Quote

Oceanus was a Titan god of enormous river called Okeanos which was believed to be encircling the world and was connecting this world to other realms, such as heavenly realms from which the gods came and underworld where the souls of the dead lived. He was a personification of all salt water of the world, more precisely Mediterranean Sea, Atlantic Ocean and Indian Ocean which were the most familiar to ancient Greeks at the time, and all the fresh water that includes rivers, lakes, streams and rain.

source

And:

Quote

In the ancient Greek cosmogony the RIVER OKEANOS (Oceanus) was a great, fresh-water stream which encircled the flat disc of the earth. It was the source of all of the earth's fresh-water--from the rivers and springs which drew their waters from it through subterranean aquifers to the clouds which dipped below the horizon to collect their moisture from its stream.

source

Of course, these aren't ancient sources. But it's reasonable to think that they have consulted ancient sources. You should agree here, since my third quote cones from the same website you linked yourself.

Harte

Edited September 2, 2019 by Harte

[+Pettytalk]

12 minutes ago, Harte said:

From your first link:

Also:

source

And:

source

Of course, these aren't ancient sources. But it's reasonable to think that they have consulted ancient sources. You should agree here, since my third quote cones from the same website you linked yourself.

Harte

I think compromise is necessary.

Basically the ancients, with their poetry, were revealing their knowledge that they were aware that the fresh water on land comes from the saltwater of the sea, which becomes free of the salt content through distillation, natural evaporation. And as such, through the rain clouds condensation comes back down on land, to then return to its source through the rivers. And therefore telling us, through poetic mythology, that water is all related to one family,

[+Pettytalk]

1 hour ago, Piney said:

From the amount of lies you've told here. You wouldn't know. 

A great truth is,"that it is often necessary, for the benefit of men, to deceive them.”  Socrates.

[Piney]

1 minute ago, Pettytalk said:

A great truth is,"that it is often necessary, for the benefit of men, to deceive them.”  Socrates.

"All sin compounds into a lie"- Clan Mother teaching

[+Pettytalk]

46 minutes ago, Harte said:

I believe he is sarcastically referring to the Lord of the Rings trilogy.

Harte

Too recent for a classical documentary expert.

[Trelane]

There sure are some persistent trolls around these days. That's really the only reason this thread keeps going.

 

[+Pettytalk]

4 minutes ago, Piney said:

"All sin compounds into a lie"- Clan Mother teaching

I belong to a different clan, as ours is a patriarch-based clan, where lying is our business, among other things. We deal with "life", "flood", and "fire/brimstone" insurance policies, We also provide services for legal representation, witness intimidation, jury tampering, bail bonds service, shakedowns, and we issue threats and warnings, and also extort money for the benefit of the poor. And we specialize in parole hearings, if all else fails. The head of our clan/family is the well know, and little understood, God/Father.

[+Pettytalk]

28 minutes ago, Trelane said:

There sure are some persistent trolls around these days. That's really the only reason this thread keeps going.

 

You are swelling the ranks.

[Piney]

13 minutes ago, Pettytalk said:

I belong to a different clan, as ours is a patriarch-based clan, where lying is our business, among other things. We deal with "life", "flood", and "fire/brimstone" insurance policies, We also provide services for legal representation, witness intimidation, jury tampering, bail bonds service, shakedowns, and we issue threats and warnings, and also extort money for the benefit of the poor. And we specialize in parole hearings, if all else fails. The head of our clan/family is the well know, and little understood, God/Father.

But your Jesus is sure to forgive.

Creation isn't so forgiving....

[Harte]

GANTZ, Timothy. Early Greek myth: a guide to literary and artistic sources. Johns Hopkins University Press (1993)

"...the distinction between fresh and salt water fails to assert itself..." in early myths.

Harte

[+Pettytalk]

5 hours ago, Harte said:

GANTZ, Timothy. Early Greek myth: a guide to literary and artistic sources. Johns Hopkins University Press (1993)

"...the distinction between fresh and salt water fails to assert itself..." in early myths.

Harte

Since in the following excerpt from From Plato's Cratylus contains information to shed further light on this side skirmish, It should be noted the mention of Heraclitus and his concept of "all is in motion and never at rest." By this it all in motion, it should corroborate the suggestion that the ancient knew that all water was connected and always in motion. And natural evaporation from the one common ocean is part of the "all in motion", the cycle of evaporation, condensation, precipitation, and the accumulative process on land to then flow back to the one source, the great river encircling all dry land.

But what can also be gleaned from the unwise Socrates, is reveling that men of science, the likes of Heraclitus, a natural philosopher, themselves gleaned their ideas on how nature works through the ancient poets like Homer and Hesiod, who came before them. Additionally, we should take advantage of Socrates uncharacteristic and sudden acquisition of wisdom, as he is hinting at the great corroborate notion of Evolution, that all life started in the ocean, since he tells us it's the place where the gods were born. And since the gods are said to have created man, we were bored from the ocean. Additionally since it's written elsewhere, "ye are all gods," it stands to reason that, as it is said, "myths do contain some truth."  In fact the great Botticelli, with his painting of  Aphrodite's birth, represents this ancient Hellenic poetic inspiration of the knowledge of Evolution of the sea giving birth to all life, including the gods. And in the Timaeus, one of our Atlantis dialogues, we have the gods being created by the Father of all the universe, And it is that one must truly understand why the story of Atlantis is sandwiched between the ending of the Republic with the myth of Er, on Reincarnation, and the myth of Creation/Reincarnation of the Timaeus.  

"Know thyself, said Pythagoras. The phrase was also inscribed at the Oracle at Delphi: "Know thyself and thou wilt know the universe and the gods." Know ye not that ye are gods, said Hermes Trismegistus. This is ascribed to the Hermetic tradion. ... " This refers to Psalm 82:6 "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."      

Next in order after Hestia we ought to consider Rhea and Cronos, although the name of Cronos has
been already discussed. But I dare say that I am talking great nonsense.
HERMOGENES: Why, Socrates?
SOCRATES: My good friend, I have discovered a hive of wisdom.
HERMOGENES: Of what nature?
SOCRATES: Well, rather ridiculous, and yet plausible.
HERMOGENES: How plausible?
SOCRATES: I fancy to myself Heracleitus repeating wise traditions of antiquity
as old as the days of Cronos and Rhea, and of which Homer also spoke.
HERMOGENES: How do you mean?
SOCRATES: Heracleitus is supposed to say that all things are in motion
and nothing at rest; he compares them to the stream of a river, and says that
you cannot go into the same water twice.
HERMOGENES: That is true.
SOCRATES: Well, then, how can we avoid inferring that he who gave the
names of Cronos and Rhea to the ancestors of the Gods, agreed pretty much
in the doctrine of Heracleitus? Is the giving of the names of streams to both of
them purely accidental? Compare the line in which Homer, and, as I believe,
Hesiod also, tells of
’Ocean, the origin of Gods, and mother Tethys (Il.–the line is not found in
the extant works of Hesiod.).’
And again, Orpheus says, that
’The fair river of Ocean was the first to marry, and he espoused his sister
Tethys, who was his mother’s daughter.’
You see that this is a remarkable coincidence, and all in the direction of
Heracleitus.
HERMOGENES: I think that there is something in what you say, Socrates;
but I do not understand the meaning of the name Tethys.
SOCRATES: Well, that is almost self-explained, being only the name of a
spring, a little disguised; for that which is strained and filtered (diattomenon,
ethoumenon) may be likened to a spring, and the name Tethys is made up of
these two words.
HERMOGENES: The idea is ingenious, Socrates.
SOCRATES: To be sure. But what comes next?–of Zeus we have spoken.
HERMOGENES: Yes.
 

It's rather obvious why the ocean was referred to as a "River." And it's to symbolize the source and cyclic flow of all water, whose representation of "all in motion" concept would be easily seen in the flow of springs and rivers.  

 

[Peter Cox]

18 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

It's still not you, as you are agreeing with me there. Still less than, is your rating on your truth. Go back to reasoning school, as you are lacking!

My Lord! One cannot have a one on one conversation without the other pack of lower animals getting in the act.

Great defensive debate there. Your reasoning skills are terrible and you cannot formulate a debate so you are far less than equal to both the task and grasping the concept of Philosophy. 

What a great disappointment your reply is. 

[Peter Cox]

17 hours ago, Piney said:

Truth needs proof which you have not provided. 

Recycled where? North American is about to be quaked and flooded a'la Atlantis. 

According to him it only requires his truth. Its a backwards way of approaching a subject... "Im right and you wrong" its ridiculous. 

[jmccr8]

13 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

Truth is a funny thing, and sometimes it may look funny, sound crazy, taste bitter, feel wrong, and smell bad. 

"I look for truth and find that I get damned".

  

just wait a few thousand years ans Atlantis will be the beach or is that be....atch

jmccr8

[atalante]

16 hours ago, Harte said:

GANTZ, Timothy. Early Greek myth: a guide to literary and artistic sources. Johns Hopkins University Press (1993)

"...the distinction between fresh and salt water fails to assert itself..." in early myths.

Harte

Harte,

I did not know we are playing poker with Illiad 21.195.  But in case we are, I have a card to play about 21.195.  Here is a scholarly claim that 21.195 never existed in the original Illiad.  Scroll down to the discussion about 21.194-197.

https://chs.harvard.edu/CHS/article/display/6572.rhapsody-21

Edited September 3, 2019 by atalante

[Piney]

10 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

It's rather obvious why the ocean was referred to as a "River." And it's to symbolize the source and cyclic flow of all water, whose representation of "all in motion" concept would be easily seen in the flow of springs and rivers.  

 

10 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

Since in the following excerpt from From Plato's Cratylus contains information to shed further light on this side skirmish, It should be noted the mention of Heraclitus and his concept of "all is in motion and never at rest." By this it all in motion, it should corroborate the suggestion that the ancient knew that all water was connected and always in motion. And natural evaporation from the one common ocean is part of the "all in motion", the cycle of evaporation, condensation, precipitation, and the accumulative process on land to then flow back to the one source, the great river encircling all dry land.

 

 

Why the Greeks thought the world was surrounded by a vast river was because PIE speakers originated on the Pontic Caspian Steppe surrounded on all sides by rivers who were deified and revered.

Socrates thought gold was water affected by sunlight. He didn't understand the hydrological cycle. 

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

15 minutes ago, Piney said:

Socrates thought gold was water affected by sunlight. He didn't understand the hydrological cycle. 

Socrates was Pettytalk's teacher...... that actually explains alot.