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Is this Atlantis ... at the coast of Spain?


Van Gorp
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On 9/2/2019 at 10:53 PM, Harte said:

Why did the ocean(s) turn salty within human memory, myth? Why this important metamorphose is strangely missing from the mythological records?

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With regard to the composition of the ocean, the behavior of modern hydrothermal systems provides analogy (Sleep et al. 2001). The ancient ocean as a whole cooled over millions of years toward clemency, passing through the P-T conditions beneath modern ridge axes. In particular, Na is much more abundant than Cl on the Earth. A dense liquid NaCl brine formed by the time the temperature reached 500°C if not before.

Basalt likely buffered the pH and the water chemistry; thermodynamic calculations indicate that carbonates are stable phases in water that has reacted with basalt (Sleep et al. 2001). The pH like the modern ocean was near neutral by the time it became habitable. A komatiite or peridotite/serpentinite buffered ocean would be more alkaline like modern vents in serpentinite. There was never a HCl–H2SO4 ocean nor a NaHCO3–Na2CO3 one, as they would have been strongly out of equilibrium with basalt and also with komatiite or peridotite/seprentinite.

The precise amounts of NaCl and water in the ancient surface ocean, however, are not evident. Knauth (2005) points out the higher salinity 1.5–2.0 times present level is likely in the Hadean and Archaean because there was insufficient continental area to form closed seas where halite (rock salt, solid NaCl) could accumulate by local evaporation of seawater. The direct geological record is not particularly helpful as halite is soluble in water and hence has a poor preservation potential compared with other rock types.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869525/

Sea floor basalt activity salted the ocean(s) while Atlantis disappeared beneath the waves (of Oceanus and Pleistocene ice...)

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Edited by Polar
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...maybe it just didn’t make for an interesting  story. That’s all myths are. 

Well, to normal people, at least. 

—Jaylemurph 

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Why is an article concerning water from 3.8 - 2.5 BILLION years BP being used as relevant to the early Holocene? It’s NOT. 

cormac

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48 minutes ago, Polar said:

Why did the ocean(s) turn salty within human memory, myth? Why this important metamorphose is strangely missing from the mythological records?

 

Your article stated the oceans were saltier during the Hadean and Archean. Before the first complex life forms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadean

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archean

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52 minutes ago, Polar said:
Quote

The precise amounts of NaCl and water in the ancient surface ocean, however, are not evident. Knauth (2005) points out the higher salinity 1.5–2.0 times present level is likely in the Hadean and Archaean because there was insufficient continental area to form closed seas where halite (rock salt, solid NaCl) could accumulate by local evaporation of seawater. The direct geological record is not particularly helpful as halite is soluble in water and hence has a poor preservation potential compared with other rock types.

 

 

50 minutes ago, Polar said:

Sea floor basalt activity salted the ocean(s) while Atlantis disappeared beneath the waves (of Oceanus and Pleistocene ice...)

 

See above. 

 

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How you, men of Athens, have been affected by my accusers, I do not know; but I, for my part, almost forgot my own identity, so persuasively did they talk; and yet there is hardly a word of truth in what they have said. But I was most amazed by one of the many lies that they told—when they said that you must be on your guard not to be deceived by me,

Plato. Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vol. 1 translated by Harold North Fowler; Introduction by W.R.M. Lamb. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1966.
 
Then consider this. The soul, has it a work which you couldn't accomplish with anything else in the world, as for example, management, rule, deliberation, and the like, is there anything else than soul to which you could rightly assign these and say that they were its peculiar work?” “Nothing else.” “And again life? Shall we say that too is the function of the soul?” “Most certainly,” he said. “And do we not also say that there is an excellence virtue of the soul?
 
Plato. Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vols. 5 & 6 translated by Paul Shorey. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1969.

Athenian
To whom do you ascribe the authorship of your legal arrangements, Strangers? To a god or to some man?

Clinias
To a god, Stranger, most rightfully to a god. We Cretans call Zeus our lawgiver; while in Lacedaemon, where our friend here has his home, I believe they claim Apollo as theirs. Is not that so, Megillus?

Megillus
Yes.

Athenian
Do you then, like Homer,1 say that [624b] Minos used to go every ninth year to hold converse with his father Zeus, and that he was guided by his divine oracles in laying down the laws for your cities?

Clinias
So our people say. And they say also that his brother Rhadamanthys,—no doubt you have heard the name,—was exceedingly just. And certainly we Cretans

Plato. Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vols. 10 & 11 translated by R.G. Bury. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1967 & 1968.
 

Callicles
To join in a fight or a fray, as the saying is, Socrates, you have chosen your time well enough.

Socrates
Do you mean, according to the proverb, we have come too late for a feast?

Callicles
Yes, a most elegant feast; for Gorgias gave us a fine and varied display but a moment ago.

Socrates
But indeed, Callicles, it is Chaerephon here who must take the blame for this;

Plato. Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vol. 3 translated by W.R.M. Lamb. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1967.

Socrates
Observe, then, Protarchus, what the doctrine is which you are now to accept from Philebus, and what our doctrine is, against which you are to argue, if you do not agree with it.

Plato. Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vol. 9 translated by Harold N. Fowler. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1925.

Socrates
One, two, three,—but where, my dear Timaeus, is the fourth1 of our guests of yesterday, our hosts of today?

Timaeus
Some sickness has befallen him, Socrates; for he would never have stayed away from our gathering of his own free will.

Socrates
Then the task of filling the place of the absent one falls upon you and our friends here, does it not?

Timaeus
Undoubtedly, and we shall do our best not to come short;

1 This fourth guest cannot be identified. Some have supposed that Plato himself is intended.

Plato. Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vol. 9 translated by W.R.M. Lamb. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1925.
 
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/collection?collection=Perseus%3Acollection%3AGreco-Roman
 
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3 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

...maybe it just didn’t make for an interesting  story. That’s all myths are. 

Well, to normal people, at least. 

—Jaylemurph 

Wow! A touch of modesty,, at last. Then know that divine inspiration never so much comes closer than 50 stadia away to normal people like you.

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49 minutes ago, Pettytalk said:

Then know that divine inspiration never so much comes closer than 50 stadia away to normal people like you.

But you are not a "master of knowledge", but a "victim of concept". Not inspired, because your philosophy is not your own. But someone else's which you twisted to your own designs into a idea based on fear mongering.

Divine inspiration? More like a cesspool of the mind.....

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9 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

When are you going to provide Lamb's Plato's English translations of the Timaeus and Critias contained in "his" 12 volumes work? Or if not that, provide your apologies for being such a poor example of an expert on classical documentary.

When you provide one or the other, then I will meet my end of the bargain, but not before.

What a load of bull excrement - Supply some references and peer review and people "might" take you a little more seriously. 

Your current arguments are all flawed and the "Just believe me on my word" way of debating is getting thin fast. Stick to your end first and others will follow.  

But alas I fear this wall fall on deaf ears and blind eyes, you either are incapable of having an intelligent debate or a just a troll looking to type your long winded replies with no substance and facts in them.. 

Im waiting for the music video now....

I also suspect any reply would be more of the same a bitter disappointment from you. 

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3 hours ago, Piney said:

But you are not a "master of knowledge", but a "victim of concept". Not inspired, because your philosophy is not your own. But someone else's which you twisted to your own designs into a idea based on fear mongering.

Divine inspiration? More like a cesspool of the mind.....

This sums it all up very well. 

Much like Plato's Atlantis PT misses facts and reasoning skills to make an intelligent debate.  

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20 hours ago, Piney said:

That's just Murray's theory. It could also mean "Sea People" or "Flatland People".

Since "Pelasgian" is a "wastebin" term, they could of been another Paleo-Balkan people related to Greeks. They could of been Minoans.   Nobody knows for sure. 

Piney, 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians#Etymology

Ernest Klein argued that the ancient Greek word for "sea", pelagos and the Doric word plagos, "side" (which is flat) shared the same root, *plāk-, and that *pelag-skoi therefore meant "the sea men", where the sea is flat.[11] This could be connected to the maritime marauders referred to as the Sea People in Egyptian records. Subsequent scholarship shows that the connection between the two roots is "phonetically impossible".[12] 

endquote

Therefore Murray's etymology for the name Pelasgian is superior.

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1 hour ago, atalante said:

Piney, 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians#Etymology

Ernest Klein argued that the ancient Greek word for "sea", pelagos and the Doric word plagos, "side" (which is flat) shared the same root, *plāk-, and that *pelag-skoi therefore meant "the sea men", where the sea is flat.[11] This could be connected to the maritime marauders referred to as the Sea People in Egyptian records. Subsequent scholarship shows that the connection between the two roots is "phonetically impossible".[12] 

endquote

Therefore Murray's etymology for the name Pelasgian is superior.

How, exactly, have you proved this idea is “superior”? All you’ve done here is “prove” the idea exists. To rate something, you have to compare it to something else.  

—Jaylemurph 

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Right now I have no time for anyone, except for the Mellon man, and also for anyone that has anything related to Plato's Atlantis, on whether it is or is not in Spain. We need to point to why, and where in Plato's writing does or does not support even a plausible condition.

And anymore childish remarks directed a me, or any other poster who is wanting to seriously discuss the OP's question, which happens to be the subject of the thread, will be ignored, or reported to the Administrator, if the personal attacks are considered vicious. As always, a little good and clean humor is acceptable.

The thread was at a point where we were trying to establish a consensus as why Plato designated the Atlantic as a pelagos (a sea) rather than an okeanos (an ocean). And based on this designation, it was mentioned that establishing with certainty as to where the pillars of Heracles were in accordance with Plato, then we could more easily establish that, even though Plato referred to the Atlantic as a pelagos, he really meant what is today our Atlantic ocean. And subsequently, the pillars of Heracles have to be referring to our strait of Gibraltar. 

I believe that Plato made it rather clear as to where the pillars of Heracles are, as far as his story of Atlantis. And those who are not understanding how clearly Plato told us that he meant the strait of Gibraltar for the pillars, are requiring corroboration from other classical sources, to confirm what Plato stated so clear. And it's as clear as day that Plato alone is only necessary to establish the pillars at Gibraltar. However, Aristotle, Plato's immediate disciple mentioned the pillars, and based on his wording, he too corroborates the pillars as our strait of Gibraltar.

The following is from Jowett's English translation of Plato's Timaeus. And just relying on the following excerpt should suffice to point out that the two pillars of Heracles are each standing on a different continent. One pillar is in Libya (Africa), and one pillar is in Europe. The strait of Gibraltar is formed by the nearness of two points, where one point of Africa is closest to one point of Europe, and vice versa, of course. And the strait of Gibraltar/pillars of Heracles is pretty much the sailing boundary marker of an imaginary line dividing the Atlantic ocean from the Mediterranean sea. 

Many great and wonderful deeds are recorded of your state in our histories.
But one of them exceeds all the rest in greatness and valour. For these histories
tell of a mighty power which unprovoked made an expedition against the whole
of Europe and Asia, and to which your city put an end. This power came forth
out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and
there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the
Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and
was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of
the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is
within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but
that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called
a boundless continent. Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and
wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and
over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected
the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe
as far as Tyrrhenia. This vast power, gathered into one, endeavoured to subdue
at a blow our country and yours and the whole of the region within the straits;

If the above paragraph is carefully read, and then reflected upon, I believe that anyone with a little knowledge of Herodotus History, besides Plato's work, should come to understand that Plato's pillars of Heracles are indeed our strait of Gibraltar. And I'm ready to discuss the above paragraph from the Timaeus, and take any questions in reference to the pillars of Heracles and its modern designation.

However, if anyone wants to seriously discuss where Plato places the pillars of Heracles, and is not familiar with Atlantology, and why it's important for any hypothesis on Atlantis to properly establish the correct location, then perhaps getting a primer on this would be a good idea before posting an opinion or a question. This is one site where one can visit and explore to get familiar with the history of the pillars, and how various Atlantis seekers have interpreted as to where the pillars of Heracles are, since a few others have them at other than at the strait of Gibraltar.  http://atlantipedia.ie/samples/pillars-of-heracles/

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3 hours ago, atalante said:

Piney, 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians#Etymology

Ernest Klein argued that the ancient Greek word for "sea", pelagos and the Doric word plagos, "side" (which is flat) shared the same root, *plāk-, and that *pelag-skoi therefore meant "the sea men", where the sea is flat.[11] This could be connected to the maritime marauders referred to as the Sea People in Egyptian records. Subsequent scholarship shows that the connection between the two roots is "phonetically impossible".[12] 

endquote

Therefore Murray's etymology for the name Pelasgian is superior.

Yes "plak" is PIE for flat but the PIE folk were originally steppe nomads. Which is why the term "sea of grass" can be found in many IE and Indo-Iranian languages. The Paleo-Balkan folk were also mountain dwellers and branches have come down into the plains where they dwelled and were named for it. 

So it could be "Flatlanders".

The sea people were many different ethnic groups including the ancient Sicilians and possibly the Minoans. Coastal dwelling Greeks no doubt participated, including the Pelasgians.

So it could be "Sea Dwellers".  

Murrays etymology isn't superior. It was just one of many. Since I consider the Pelasgians Greeks who didn't live in the hills. I'm going with "Flatlander". 

 

 

Edited by Piney
**** Atlantis
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11 hours ago, Peter Cox said:

What a load of bull excrement - Supply some references and peer review and people "might" take you a little more seriously. 

Your current arguments are all flawed and the "Just believe me on my word" way of debating is getting thin fast. Stick to your end first and others will follow.  

But alas I fear this wall fall on deaf ears and blind eyes, you either are incapable of having an intelligent debate or a just a troll looking to type your long winded replies with no substance and facts in them.. 

Im waiting for the music video now....

I believe the terms to use would be inexplicable and unnecessary.

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5 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

Right now I have no time for anyone, except for the Mellon man, and also for anyone that has anything related to Plato's Atlantis, on whether it is or is not in Spain. We need to point to why, and where in Plato's writing does or does not support even a plausible condition.

I'll point out why. It's been determined your a liar without facts on your side. Besides, do you think @Mellon Man has time for you?

5 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

And anymore childish remarks directed a me, or any other poster who is wanting to seriously discuss the OP's question, which happens to be the subject of the thread, will be ignored, or reported to the Administrator, if the personal attacks are considered vicious. As always, a little good and clean humor is acceptable.

Who elected you Thread Captain? 

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5 hours ago, Piney said:

Besides, do you think @Mellon Man has time for you?

Apparently you do, and plenty of it.

 

6 hours ago, Piney said:

Who elected you Thread Captain? 

Ignored!

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5 hours ago, Hanslune said:

It's actually Van Corp's thread and by the tradition here he is the Thread Tsar - Harte is court Jester, Kenement the evil step mother with a secret heart of gold You are the wise Shaman, Mellon is scholar, Cormac is Vizier, Polar is a chair and our special friend the result of untamed Nepotism, Atlante is the smart fellow who has found a new number between 5 and 6 and the rest are members of the court most of whom are tying to figure out some way to get out of this thread!

Ignored!

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19 minutes ago, Pettytalk said:

Ignored!

By the way you ignored someone on this board by pausing you mouse over their name above their avatar and a menu will come up and at the bottom you will see centered there" (x) ignore user. Please use instead of littering the thread with you childishness.

Thanks

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48 minutes ago, Pettytalk said:

Ignored!

Doubt it! Your too pathological and nibby. :lol:

Besides! This will make pointing out your lies and ignorance more fun. :yes:

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1 hour ago, Hanslune said:

By the way you ignored someone on this board by pausing you mouse over their name above their avatar and a menu will come up and at the bottom you will see centered there" (x) ignore user. Please use instead of littering the thread with you childishness.

Thanks

@Pettytalk such intimate knowledge on using ignore button from Hanslooney. The dude that has claimed to have ignored many posters including yours truely YET still mysteriously responds. Kinda rich, isn’t it?

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12 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

@Pettytalk such intimate knowledge on using ignore button from Hanslooney. The dude that has claimed to have ignored many posters including yours truely YET still mysteriously responds. Kinda rich, isn’t it?

He just started insulting me in another thread. :lol:

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14 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

 Hanslooney. 

 

:lol: LOL!!!!

Edited by Piney
**** Atlantis
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2 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

Ignored!

Evidently not ignored considering you read it and replied to it.

Ignore - "Refuse to take notice of or acknowledge; disregard intentionally" 

Once again you have show your inability to do what you even claim you will do. 

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