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Is this Atlantis ... at the coast of Spain?


Van Gorp
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4 hours ago, atalante said:

If the timeline of Robert Drews is reasonably correct (in The Coming of the Greeks), then the "Greeks" entered Greece and Peloponnesia ca. 1600 BC.    Thus I agree with your category of "paleo-Balkan folk", for the Pelasgians.

 

Greeks were Paleo-Balkan. Greeks, Illyrians and Thracian- Dacians all stem from Paleo-Balkan folk. 

2 hours ago, Van Gorp said:

In that sense the Pelasgi remind me of the [Velasgi] (Vlasi, Vlachs).

 

Vlachs are Romanized Thracian- Dacians, so there is a connection, but a distant one. 

4 hours ago, atalante said:

We were discussing two etymologies for the word Pelasgian.  My post showed that one of those two etymologies (Klein's) was phonetically "impossible".  Therefore, I concluded (by rejecting the impossible) that the other etymology, Murray's, was superior.

So when did you study PIE.? 

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3 hours ago, Van Gorp said:

The P, V en B can be alternative pronounciations.

In that sense the Pelasgi remind me of the [Velasgi] (Vlasi, Vlachs).

 

The way you phrased that is off. The pronunciation of sounds varies; these are called allophones.  The v sound and b sound occur only when the p sound in certain positions (like beginnings of words/syllables). “Alternative” makes it sound like the speaker actively chooses what they pronounce, and that’s not what happens. 

(If you don’t understand what an allophone is — a very basic fundamental of historical linguistics — you probably shouldn’t be pontificating on the subject...)

—Jaylemurph 

Edited by jaylemurph
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16 hours ago, Hanslune said:

By the way you ignored someone on this board by pausing you mouse over their name above their avatar and a menu will come up and at the bottom you will see centered there" (x) ignore user. Please use instead of littering the thread with you childishness.

Thanks

I wouldn't know.

I've had him on ignore for weeks now.

Harte

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11 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

So then.. where are my Shoals ? 

You mean Dr. Scholls?

You can get them at Walgreens bud.

Harte

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5 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

No. 

Just no. 

If any Atlantidiot mentions... the thing that happened there, I’ll be very mean. 

—Jaylemurph

I assume you mean the Atlantean war cry - "Croatoan!"

Harte

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Shoals anyone?

This is precisely why Plato used the word Pelagos for the Atlantic, and not Okeanos. And the reason for it was to emphasize a local and particular part of the Atlantic ocean, just as discussed earlier in the thread, why certain parts of the Mediterranean Thalassa are identified as pelagos. 

Plato's Timaeus: "For which reason the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, because there is a shoal of mud in the way;"   Directly in front of the Pillars of Heracles, the only shoals to be found are the ones that run along the eastern seaboard of the USA.

Cape Hatteras is a bend in Hatteras Island, one of the long thin barrier islands that make up the Outer Banks. It is the site where the two great basins of the East Coast meet.[2] The cape's shoals are known as Diamond Shoals.

Barrier islands are dynamic systems that migrate under the influence of changing sea levels, storms, waves, tides, and longshore currents. ... In the United States, barrier islands occur along gently sloping sandy coastlines such as those along the Gulf Coast and the Atlantic Coast as far north as Long Island, New York.

Barrier islands, sometimes called barrier spits, are found on coastlines all over the world, but are most noticeable along the eastern coast of North America, where they extend from New England down the Atlantic Coast, around the Gulf of Mexico and south to Mexico.  

The four nations with the most barrier island miles are the United States (24 percent), Mexico (11 percent), Russia (8 percent), and Australia (7 percent). Nearly a quarter of all barrier islands are found in the Arctic.

https://landsat.gsfc.nasa.gov/world-inventory-of-barrier-islands-jumps-by-one-third/

 

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Such was the natural state of the country, which was cultivated, as we may well believe, by true husbandmen, who made husbandry their business, and were lovers of honour, and of a noble nature, and had a soil the best in the world, and abundance of water, and in the heaven above an excellently attempered climate. Now the city in those days was arranged on this wise. In the first place the Acropolis was not as now. For the fact is that a single night of excessive rain washed away the earth and laid bare the rock; at the same time there were earthquakes, and then occurred the extraordinary inundation, which was the third before the great destruction of Deucalion

http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/critias.html

 

So what was the third flood and extraordinary inundation of Athens , the same time of Atlantis`s  earthquakes and flooding ? 

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14 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

Shoals anyone?

This is precisely why Plato used the word Pelagos for the Atlantic, and not Okeanos. And the reason for it was to emphasize a local and particular part of the Atlantic ocean, just as discussed earlier in the thread, why certain parts of the Mediterranean Thalassa are identified as pelagos. 

Plato's Timaeus: "For which reason the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, because there is a shoal of mud in the way;"   Directly in front of the Pillars of Heracles, the only shoals to be found are the ones that run along the eastern seaboard of the USA.

Cape Hatteras is a bend in Hatteras Island, one of the long thin barrier islands that make up the Outer Banks. It is the site where the two great basins of the East Coast meet.[2] The cape's shoals are known as Diamond Shoals.

Barrier islands are dynamic systems that migrate under the influence of changing sea levels, storms, waves, tides, and longshore currents. ... In the United States, barrier islands occur along gently sloping sandy coastlines such as those along the Gulf Coast and the Atlantic Coast as far north as Long Island, New York.

Barrier islands, sometimes called barrier spits, are found on coastlines all over the world, but are most noticeable along the eastern coast of North America, where they extend from New England down the Atlantic Coast, around the Gulf of Mexico and south to Mexico.  

The four nations with the most barrier island miles are the United States (24 percent), Mexico (11 percent), Russia (8 percent), and Australia (7 percent). Nearly a quarter of all barrier islands are found in the Arctic.

https://landsat.gsfc.nasa.gov/world-inventory-of-barrier-islands-jumps-by-one-third/

 

Fine. And do any of those constitute "impassible shoals", as Plato describes ? Is it the case that no ships can approach the eastern coast of North America ? 

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20 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

Shoals anyone?

This is precisely why Plato used the word Pelagos for the Atlantic, and not Okeanos. And the reason for it was to emphasize a local and particular part of the Atlantic ocean, just as discussed earlier in the thread, why certain parts of the Mediterranean Thalassa are identified as pelagos. 

Plato's Timaeus: "For which reason the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, because there is a shoal of mud in the way;"   Directly in front of the Pillars of Heracles, the only shoals to be found are the ones that run along the eastern seaboard of the USA.

Cape Hatteras is a bend in Hatteras Island, one of the long thin barrier islands that make up the Outer Banks. It is the site where the two great basins of the East Coast meet.[2] The cape's shoals are known as Diamond Shoals.

Barrier islands are dynamic systems that migrate under the influence of changing sea levels, storms, waves, tides, and longshore currents. ... In the United States, barrier islands occur along gently sloping sandy coastlines such as those along the Gulf Coast and the Atlantic Coast as far north as Long Island, New York.

Barrier islands, sometimes called barrier spits, are found on coastlines all over the world, but are most noticeable along the eastern coast of North America, where they extend from New England down the Atlantic Coast, around the Gulf of Mexico and south to Mexico.  

The four nations with the most barrier island miles are the United States (24 percent), Mexico (11 percent), Russia (8 percent), and Australia (7 percent). Nearly a quarter of all barrier islands are found in the Arctic.

https://landsat.gsfc.nasa.gov/world-inventory-of-barrier-islands-jumps-by-one-third/

 

 map-of-gades.jpg


I remember reading, ancient  Gades was a small island, thats where a  shoal filled it in and connected it to the lower island . 

as it fill in made it all a peninsula

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31 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

 map-of-gades.jpg


I remember reading, ancient  Gades was a small island, thats where a  shoal filled it in and connected it to the lower island . 

as it fill in made it all a peninsula

Do you get paid by some Atlantidiot group to huck that image around a couple of times a day, or do you think it magically compels people to think a fictional place was real?

—Jaylemurph 

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54 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

 map-of-gades.jpg


I remember reading, ancient  Gades was a small island, thats where a  shoal filled it in and connected it to the lower island . 

as it fill in made it all a peninsula

Atlantis allegedly WASN'T a small island which makes Gades as Atlantis rather moot. 

cormac

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On 9/6/2019 at 11:24 AM, Piney said:

Greeks were Paleo-Balkan. Greeks, Illyrians and Thracian- Dacians all stem from Paleo-Balkan folk. 

Vlachs are Romanized Thracian- Dacians, so there is a connection, but a distant one. 

So when did you study PIE.? 

Piney,
Research about PIE is rather fluid, i.e. not "settled science".    https://dienekes.blogspot.com/2015/02/strong-linguistic-and-archaeological.html

Robert Drews argued that militant bronze age chariot-driving Mycenaeans immigrated into Greece ca 1600 BC. 

(In a similar era, militant bronze age chariot-driving Hyksos immigrated into Egypt ca 1650 BC). 

 

Research by Dongen, about the Greek "Theogony story" of Hesiod and Homer (ca. 900 BC), shows that Theogony was borrowed and adapted from Anatolia.   https://grbs.library.duke.edu/article/download/12791/1881

Critias 109e to 110b proposes that Theogony details for the era before 1270 BC (= before the era of Theseus) had been garbled before the early details were handed down to classical era Greece.

 

 

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On 9/6/2019 at 6:06 PM, Van Gorp said:

The P, V en B can be alternative pronounciations.

In that sense the Pelasgi remind me of the [Velasgi] (Vlasi, Vlachs).

 

 

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1 minute ago, atalante said:

(In a similar era, militant bronze age chariot-driving Hyksos immigrated into Egypt ca 1650 BC). 

Not connected. They were Semites, and I don't think they used chariots. 

3 minutes ago, atalante said:

Research by Dongen, about the Greek "Theogony story" of Hesiod and Homer (ca. 900 BC), shows that Theogony was borrowed and adapted from Anatolia.   https://grbs.library.duke.edu/article/download/12791/1881

 Not surpirising, Anatolians were Indo-European. 

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2 minutes ago, Van Gorp said:

The P, V en B can be alternative pronounciations.

 The sound shift P-B-V are common in Indo-European languages. It's why I pronounce Dublin, "Duv lin" and Americans say "Dub lin". 

Vlachs are Thracian-Dacians who were Romanized and learned Vulgar Latin

4 minutes ago, Van Gorp said:

In that sense the Pelasgi remind me of the [Velasgi] (Vlasi, Vlachs).

"Mass Comparison" is such a bad form of research...it's not. 

The Vlachs are a branch of the Paleo-Balkan People, but they were never Pelasgians

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On 9/6/2019 at 1:24 PM, Piney said:

Greeks were Paleo-Balkan. Greeks, Illyrians and Thracian- Dacians all stem from Paleo-Balkan folk. 

Vlachs are Romanized Thracian- Dacians, so there is a connection, but a distant one. 

So when did you study PIE.? 

Genetically as a whole the Greeks appear to have been a combination with Mycenaean Greeks having an extra admixture as seen in the following: 

Quote

The origins of the Bronze Age Minoan and Mycenaean cultures
have puzzled archaeologists for more than a century. We have
assembled genome-wide data from 19 ancient individuals, including
Minoans from Crete, Mycenaeans from mainland Greece, and their
eastern neighbours from southwestern Anatolia. Here we show that
Minoans and Mycenaeans were genetically similar, having at least
three-quarters of their ancestry from the first Neolithic farmers
of western Anatolia and the Aegean1,2, and most of the remainder
from ancient populations related to those of the Caucasus3 and
Iran4,5. However, the Mycenaeans differed from Minoans in
deriving additional ancestry from an ultimate source related to the
hunter–gatherers of eastern Europe and Siberia6–8, introduced via
a proximal source related to the inhabitants of either the Eurasian
steppe1,6,9 or Armenia4,9.
Modern Greeks resemble the Mycenaeans,
but with some additional dilution of the Early Neolithic ancestry.
Our results support the idea of continuity but not isolation in the
history of populations of the Aegean, before and after the time of
its earliest civilizations.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/318862250_Genetic_origins_of_the_Minoans_and_Mycenaeans/link/5a9d4ade45851586a2aec6a8/download

The "ultimate source" in the text (which dates to August 2017) given for the Mycenaean Greeks appears to have occurred between the 2nd and 3rd millenia BC. 

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt
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2 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

The "ultimate source" in the text (which dates to August 2017) given for the Mycenaean Greeks appears to have occurred between the 2nd and 3rd millenia BC. 

The "ultimate source"'s "proximal source" seems to be the Yamnaya Culture of the Pontic Caspian Steppe and I don't know why they didn't say that. 

 

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At the rate this thread is going I wouldn't be surprised if Atlantis was said to have been a newly discovered "lost continent" from 100 million years ago. :devil:

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/09/geologists-uncover-history-lost-continent-buried-beneath-europe

cormac

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3 minutes ago, Piney said:

The "ultimate source"'s "proximal source" seems to be the Yamnaya Culture of the Pontic Caspian Steppe and I don't know why they didn't say that. 

There's no telling. But at least the source doesn't pretend that Mycenean Greeks and Minoans are 100% the same. 

cormac

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I don`nt know why  people keep pointing ever which way out  for the peoples of Atlantis ,when it all points to around Gades :)

the once island of Gades   

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1 minute ago, docyabut2 said:

I don`nt know why  people keep pointing ever which way out  for the peoples of Atlantis ,when it all points to around Gades :)   

I don't know why you can't understand that what you think about Gades being Atlantis IS NOT what Plato said even if Atlantis were, hypothetically speaking, real. 

cormac

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11 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

I don't know why you can't understand that what you think about Gades being Atlantis IS NOT what Plato said even if Atlantis were, hypothetically speaking, real. 

cormac

 Atlantis was a island  facing Gades:) why I think it was in the sea or ocean right  off Spain :) 

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Just now, docyabut2 said:

 Atlantis was facing Gades

Facing Gades DOES NOT 'make' it Gades. And at the alleged timeframe of Plato's Atlantis the entirety of the area around Gades would have been part of the mainland.  Therefore NO ISLAND. 

cormac

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46 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Genetically as a whole the Greeks appear to have been a combination with Mycenaean Greeks having an extra admixture as seen in the following: 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/318862250_Genetic_origins_of_the_Minoans_and_Mycenaeans/link/5a9d4ade45851586a2aec6a8/download

The "ultimate source" in the text (which dates to August 2017) given for the Mycenaean Greeks appears to have occurred between the 2nd and 3rd millenia BC. 

cormac

Below is a new article dealing with the "Griffin Warrior" recovery. From a cultural perspective, the burial suggests a more complex Minoan/Mycenaean interaction than previously understood. Enjoy!

https://www.archaeology.org/issues/352-1909/features/7900-greece-pylos-mycenaean-warrior-grave

A personal aside: As one who has lithic technology as one of his research (and publication) foci, the sophistication of the various seal craftings is truly impressive, particularly when rendered from such materials as agate. The seals and rings again put the lie to those that do not wish to acknowledge the skills and talents of past cultures.

Edit: Install live URL.

Edited by Swede
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6 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Facing Gades DOES NOT 'make' it Gades. And at the alleged timeframe of Plato's Atlantis the entirety of the area around Gades would have been part of the mainland.  Therefore NO ISLAND. 

cormac

To his twin brother, who was born after him, and obtained as his lot the extremity of the island towards the Pillars of Heracles, facing the country which is now called the region of Gades in that part of the world,

 

http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/critias.html

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