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Newfrance

Jon Benet Ramsey.

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Newfrance

If the golden state killer could be found using a public dna source, and the killer of the killer of Christy Mirack,  could this work in the Jon Benet Ramsey case? Is it being pursued?

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rashore

DNA has been used/tested a few times through this case. I know it's been through CODIS and used to clear the parents at one point.. but don't think it's been run against a public DNA source yet.

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Robotic Jew

They would have to have motivation to do so. Also, the "unknown" samples they have wouldn't necessarily point to the killer because there are other ways that DNA could have ended up at the scene. 

I believe they know who killed her but also know the investigation was so mishandled that they will never get a conviction without a full confession.

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Regi
28 minutes ago, Robotic Jew said:

They would have to have motivation to do so. Also, the "unknown" samples they have wouldn't necessarily point to the killer because there are other ways that DNA could have ended up at the scene.

It necessarily could, which should (in a perfect world, that is) be motivation enough.

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Vincennes
On ‎11‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 1:18 PM, Robotic Jew said:

They would have to have motivation to do so. Also, the "unknown" samples they have wouldn't necessarily point to the killer because there are other ways that DNA could have ended up at the scene. 

I believe they know who killed her but also know the investigation was so mishandled that they will never get a conviction without a full confession.


First, New France, WELCOME to Unexplained !  :tu:

I don't know why some people refuse to understand that JB's autopsy was not done in a manner that reliable DNA evidence could be obtained.

https://nij.gov/topics/forensics/evidence/dna/basics/pages/identifying-to-transporting.aspx

Unfortunately, the Medical Examiner who did her autopsy made no attempt to even protect the crime scene or her body (clothing etc.) and it laid under the Christmas tree in her home for hours with no record of who came, who went or who might have touched things.  From there it was taken to his office / lab where her clothing was placed in the open and unprotected on a desk in the autopsy area.  Lastly, the ME made no special attempt to see that the equipment used in the autopsy was even clean (not to mention sanitized).  It's believed that the tweezers used in the autopsy done just prior to JB's and simply wiped off before they were used to gather material under her finger nails.  

It's really sad and actually quite frightening that there are people who the minute they here the acronym DNA think that there is an automatic, infallible, solution to a crime.  
 

 

Edited by Vincennes
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Regi

The DNA evidence is a lead to be exhausted using every known resource, and so if that doesn't or hasn't happened, then the implication to me is that the investigative approach to that evidence is wrong, that is, it isn't objective, which I think is imperative. .

Edited by Regi
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Vincennes
20 hours ago, Regi said:

The DNA evidence is a lead to be exhausted using every known resource, and so if that doesn't or hasn't happened, then the implication to me is that the investigative approach to that evidence is wrong, that is, it isn't objective, which I think is imperative. .

I really don't mean this as snippy but which part of the Jon Benet investigation did you feel was done correctly ?  :rofl:  The autopsy procedure is right up there in the top five failures.  Also, which DA is going to go after the information to add to the case ?  Alex Hunter ?  Or the idiot that was elected after Hunter and proclaimed the Ramseys innocent to heck with the Grand Jury indictment ?

There's one other thing with the DNA retrieved from private companies.  I know it's now been used in a couple of cases and please don't get me wrong I'm in favor of using it but I don't believe any of those cases have faced a test of it's use in a Court of Appeals.  The last I heard there was a question as to whether those results were private or whether they were available to LE under a Search Warrant ?  Just saying I hope that's not of the evidence they have on the Golden State Killer because using them might have a solid risk of appeal.  

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Regi
2 hours ago, Vincennes said:

I really don't mean this as snippy but which part of the Jon Benet investigation did you feel was done correctly ?  :rofl:  The autopsy procedure is right up there in the top five failures.  Also, which DA is going to go after the information to add to the case ?  Alex Hunter ?  Or the idiot that was elected after Hunter and proclaimed the Ramseys innocent to heck with the Grand Jury indictment ?

The latest I've found is an 2016 article reporting that the current DA, Stan Garnett, planned to request further testing when new technology was available, although, he (apparently) added that such is routine for any cold case.

3 hours ago, Vincennes said:

There's one other thing with the DNA retrieved from private companies.  I know it's now been used in a couple of cases and please don't get me wrong I'm in favor of using it but I don't believe any of those cases have faced a test of it's use in a Court of Appeals.  The last I heard there was a question as to whether those results were private or whether they were available to LE under a Search Warrant ?

I don't think they're private, not yet anyway.

I've read about concerns regarding privacy issues, which I don't understand, but then again, I haven't paid close attention to that aspect and so I guess that could be (at least part of) why I don't get it...:lol:

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Regi

I beg your pardon, Garnett was DA in '16; the current DA is Michael Dougherty.

https://www.bouldercounty.org/district-attorney/past-and-present/  Annnyway...

Below is a link to an article reporting FDA approval of the new DNA technology former DA Garnett expected to become available.

http://thermofisher.mediaroom.com/2017-09-21-FBI-Approves-DNA-Detection-Kit-to-Genetically-Identify-Male-Perpetrators-of-Sexual-Assault?icid=lsg_gsd_CP1238_PG1838_blog_y-str-ancestry-inference

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Vincennes
19 hours ago, Regi said:

The latest I've found is an 2016 article reporting that the current DA, Stan Garnett, planned to request further testing when new technology was available, although, he (apparently) added that such is routine for any cold case.

 

17 hours ago, Regi said:

Below is a link to an article reporting FDA approval of the new DNA technology former DA Garnett expected to become available.

http://thermofisher.mediaroom.com/2017-09-21-FBI-Approves-DNA-Detection-Kit-to-Genetically-Identify-Male-Perpetrators-of-Sexual-Assault?icid=lsg_gsd_CP1238_PG1838_blog_y-str-ancestry-inference

Even if they did come up with a technology that would give them a substantive result, because of the way things (crime scene & body) were handled, it would never make it to court.  I wish more than anything I could get you to read Steve Thomas' book.  I'm telling you I put it down and cried at the end of it because it made me understand what had been done to this case and that Jon Benet will never get justice because of it.  There was something just the other day about Alex Hunter not wanting to leave his retirement home in Hawaii to testify about the case.  What an awful terrible man he is to the core.  

 

19 hours ago, Regi said:

I don't think they're private, not yet anyway.

I don't think it is yet either but I'm sorry to say that I think it will be.  I think it runs too closely to medical information but it has so much potential I really hope I'm wrong.  

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Regi
1 hour ago, Vincennes said:

 There was something just the other day about Alex Hunter not wanting to leave his retirement home in Hawaii to testify about the case.

What's there for Hunter to ever testify to? 

1 hour ago, Vincennes said:

 I wish more than anything I could get you to read Steve Thomas' book.  I'm telling you I put it down and cried at the end of it because it made me understand what had been done to this case and that Jon Benet will never get justice because of it.  

Well, Vin, if you can recall, John Douglas' analysis of the "ransom note" was particularly enlightening for me but I'm not remembering whether you've read that... have you? 

1 hour ago, Vincennes said:

I don't think it is yet either but I'm sorry to say that I think it will be.

I've found that it isn't. See Data policy for GEDmatch (@ bottom of page).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GEDmatch

Edited by Regi

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Vincennes
6 hours ago, Regi said:

Well, Vin, if you can recall, John Douglas' analysis of the "ransom note" was particularly enlightening for me but I'm not remembering whether you've read that... have you? 

Well, since we've been arguing over this for years now perhaps I could interest you in a deal.  I'll read Douglas book on JB if you'll read Thomas.  Actually, we'd probably both learn a bit from the other standpoint.  (This is, of course, based on if we can find copies at the library or other reasonably priced source )  I'll start looking tomorrow if you're willing.)  

 

6 hours ago, Regi said:

I've found that it isn't. See Data policy for GEDmatch (@ bottom of page).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GEDmatch

That is interesting.  I had NO idea that it has already been used so often !  However, my concern is that last line.  

"Civil libertarians have said the use of websites such as GEDmatch by law enforcement raises legal and privacy concerns"

Seems to me if the Libertarians have concerns, it's only a matter of time until the ACLU challenges it's use and starts appealing convictions and things always seem to go in favor of the criminal rather than the victim.  

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Newfrance

I checked out some you tube video of the case last night. The case unfortunately is the world's most prolific and unsolved case...no answers, with evidence that point sin quite a few directions..............WHO IN THE WORLD DOES THE DNA BELONG TO?..           AND  IS IT A COMBINATION OF 2 PEOPLE? They need to get moving on this case. other old cases have been solved, this one can also.   The DNA is the key.................

Edited by Newfrance

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Regi
15 hours ago, Vincennes said:

Well, since we've been arguing over this for years now perhaps I could interest you in a deal.  I'll read Douglas book on JB if you'll read Thomas.  Actually, we'd probably both learn a bit from the other standpoint.  (This is, of course, based on if we can find copies at the library or other reasonably priced source )  I'll start looking tomorrow if you're willing.) 

Read Thomas' book? Oh, pleeease, not that! :lol:

So, the deal is that if I read a whole book, you'll read a small portion of a book? :passifier:

Seriously, do you still have his book?

Speaking of books, I now have that one you'd mentioned not having anymore but wished you did, the one called, JonBenet: The Police Files! :yes: I haven't read it, yet, though; I'd just happened to come across it some time ago and so I picked it up to add to my collection and for future reference. 

17 hours ago, Vincennes said:

That is interesting.  I had NO idea that it has already been used so often !  However, my concern is that last line.  

"Civil libertarians have said the use of websites such as GEDmatch by law enforcement raises legal and privacy concerns"

Seems to me if the Libertarians have concerns, it's only a matter of time until the ACLU challenges it's use and starts appealing convictions and things always seem to go in favor of the criminal rather than the victim.  

Uh, oh! Here we go...

https://www.forensicmag.com/news/2018/05/golden-state-killer-backlash-public-databases-shutting-down-wake-arrest?cmpid=horizontalcontent

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Robotic Jew
2 hours ago, Newfrance said:

I checked out some you tube video of the case last night. The case unfortunately is the world's most prolific and unsolved case...no answers, with evidence that point sin quite a few directions..............WHO IN THE WORLD DOES THE DNA BELONG TO?..           AND  IS IT A COMBINATION OF 2 PEOPLE? They need to get moving on this case. other old cases have been solved, this one can also.   The DNA is the key.................

The DNA may not be the key. It was touch DNA and it could've come from anywhere. Including but not limited to the factory where the underwear was made/packaged.

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Vincennes
4 hours ago, Regi said:

Speaking of books, I now have that one you'd mentioned not having anymore but wished you did, the one called, JonBenet: The Police Files! :yes: I haven't read it, yet, though; I'd just happened to come across it some time ago and so I picked it up to add to my collection and for future reference. 

I can't remember anything about that one, having it or reading it.  You sure it was me that talked about it ?  I do think I remember one that was put together by a couple of reporters and had some interesting things in from the Ramsey's interviews but don't remember it's name.  

 

 

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Vincennes
5 hours ago, Newfrance said:

I checked out some you tube video of the case last night. The case unfortunately is the world's most prolific and unsolved case...no answers, with evidence that point sin quite a few directions..............WHO IN THE WORLD DOES THE DNA BELONG TO?..           AND  IS IT A COMBINATION OF 2 PEOPLE? They need to get moving on this case. other old cases have been solved, this one can also.   The DNA is the key.................

There you go.   I hear the initials DNA.  Case solved.  I'm saying a prayer here that God keeps you off any jury.  

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Regi
25 minutes ago, Vincennes said:

I do think I remember one that was put together by a couple of reporters and had some interesting things in from the Ramsey's interviews but don't remember it's name. 

Surely, that's the one I'm talking about. Did you read it? (It's 407 pages! :blink:)

Here's what it looks like.https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1911712.JonBenet_the_Police_Files

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Vincennes
17 hours ago, Regi said:

Surely, that's the one I'm talking about. Did you read it? (It's 407 pages! :blink:)

Here's what it looks like.https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1911712.JonBenet_the_Police_Files

Well you get the memory test trophy for today !  Yes, that is one of the books I read re. Jon Benet and it's one that I wished later that I had kept.  I don't think I relied on it for 100% accuracy because the writers were news reporters but (if I remember correctly LOL) it did have some transcripts from their interviews that wasn't released (at least not at the time I read it) and because of Alex Hunter's contacts during the original investigation with the Enquirer, I did give them some credence.  (Remember Jeff Shapiro, who was at that time an investigative reporter for the Enquirer, had contacted the police after he determine Hunter was unethically feeding information to the Enquirer and actually wore a wire for the police during some of his meetings with Hunter.  (Note:  Shapiro is now a Washington D.C. attorney who is well thought of enough that I've seen him interviewed several times re. other matters in the news.)

 

22 hours ago, Regi said:

Read Thomas' book? Oh, pleeease, not that! :lol:

So, the deal is that if I read a whole book, you'll read a small portion of a book?

~~~ sigh ~~~ It was a genuine offer.  What makes you think I would cheat now why would doing that come to your mind ~~~  ?  ;)  Really, I volunteer at the local food bank thrift shop and  yesterday I looked to see if they had a copy of Douglas' book.  They did not but they did have Thomas.  So I'll even mail you a copy and all you have to do is be open minded.  Wouldn't you look forward to pointing out where all of this was police dept. fault ?  I'm always interested in profiling so I don't know why I never thought of this offer before.  It might be an interesting discussion ….  Come on ….. chicken that you'll have to admit you found something in it  ????

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Regi
36 minutes ago, Vincennes said:

Well you get the memory test trophy for today !

Thank you. ^_^

59 minutes ago, Vincennes said:

~~~ sigh ~~~ It was a genuine offer.  What makes you think I would cheat now why would doing that come to your mind ~~~  ?  ;)

Oh, I know it was genuine, I was just joking that I think it's a bum deal for me, that I'd be reading an entire book when in Douglas' book, this case is only one of many others, that this case consists of 66 pages (yes, I counted) and that the portion re: the ransom note is only 5 pages (actually 4, since 2 pages together amount to one :lol:).

1 hour ago, Vincennes said:

So I'll even mail you a copy and all you have to do is be open minded.  Wouldn't you look forward to pointing out where all of this was police dept. fault ?  I'm always interested in profiling so I don't know why I never thought of this offer before.  It might be an interesting discussion ….  Come on ….. chicken that you'll have to admit you found something in it  ????

If you have the book, then perhaps you can inform me of whatever it is that you think I wouldn't admit...

Now, it's acknowledged that there were mistakes in the investigation, but, no, I'm not interested in going back just so that I could point them all out.

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Vincennes
20 hours ago, Regi said:

Oh, I know it was genuine, I was just joking that I think it's a bum deal for me, that I'd be reading an entire book when in Douglas' book, this case is only one of many others, that this case consists of 66 pages (yes, I counted) and that the portion re: the ransom note is only 5 pages (actually 4, since 2 pages together amount to one :lol:).

 if I can find a copy, I'll at least read the part about the ransom note.  

 

21 hours ago, Regi said:

If you have the book, then perhaps you can inform me of whatever it is that you think I wouldn't admit...

Now, it's acknowledged that there were mistakes in the investigation, but, no, I'm not interested in going back just so that I could point them all out.

The only thing I think you are hesitant to admit is that Douglas was under Ramsey's influence which had to have influenced him.  His was rebuked by other FBI Profilers for that.

The rest is not things you won't admit just things about Alex Hunter and his staff and the Ramsey's actions I don't think you can understand and can't fully appreciate without reading it.   

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Vincennes

^ Reg, it's been a while since I had come across Douglas' book and I'd forgotten there are more cases covered in it than JB's.  I apologize if it seemed as if I was trying to flim flam you ~~ :P  Just to show that I my intentions were honest  :rofl:   I have checked and it is available at the local library.  So if I can get myself out of here in the cold today, I intend to pick it up.

I neglected to ask in my earlier post if you're reading the one by the reporters.  I sure wish I could remember what was in it that I wanted later to retrieve and read again.  It must have been something that I thought Ramsey had succeeded in burying later.  I've been thinking just since this subject came up again, did we ever really know who Ramsey was that enabled him so much control ?  You know during that Blake interview with Dr. Phil that I could not find the recording of John and Patsy talking with Blake's voice in the background asking what had happened and being told by John to go back to bed, it didn't concern him.  Now I had heard that recording on the internet and played it multiple times.  At one time it was on YouTube and the Enquirer's website but when I looked later, it was GONE FROM EVERY WHERE.  They say you can't make something disappear from the internet but someone had at least achieved making finding it beyond my capabilities.  How and Who ?

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Regi
1 hour ago, Vincennes said:

^ Reg, it's been a while since I had come across Douglas' book and I'd forgotten there are more cases covered in it than JB's.  I apologize if it seemed as if I was trying to flim flam you ~~ :P 

:lol: No need to apologize, Vin, it didn't seem that way at all! I was just being silly (too silly) about it, that's all. And yeah, it's been a long time but while I remember your opinion about Douglas- and your opinion about my opinion about Douglas :lol: -  I don't remember your opinion about his analysis of the note, and needless to say, I'm interested to know what you'd think about it.

1 hour ago, Vincennes said:

I neglected to ask in my earlier post if you're reading the one by the reporters. 

No, but I am skimming through it to look for particular info.

1 hour ago, Vincennes said:

I've been thinking just since this subject came up again, did we ever really know who Ramsey was that enabled him so much control ?

Sorry, control over what?

1 hour ago, Vincennes said:

 You know during that Blake interview with Dr. Phil that I could not find the recording of John and Patsy talking with Blake's voice in the background asking what had happened and being told by John to go back to bed, it didn't concern him.  Now I had heard that recording on the internet and played it multiple times. 

I would guess that whoever uploaded it decided to remove it- heck if I know- but I heard it too (on CBS) and I didn't hear anything that sounded like anything.

Edited by Regi

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Vincennes
23 hours ago, Regi said:

:lol: No need to apologize, Vin, it didn't seem that way at all! I was just being silly (too silly) about it, that's all. 

:tu:  And that's the way I took it.  I just had to note when I saw it was multiple cases, I'd offered you a pretty dumb deal.  

23 hours ago, Regi said:

And yeah, it's been a long time but while I remember your opinion about Douglas- and your opinion about my opinion about Douglas :lol: -  

 

I never have understood why you took what he had to say and the DNA as the sum total of the case.  For goodness sake other FBI profilers criticized him for establishing a relationship with the Ramsey's before the profile.  I think they did to him what they did to Lou Schmidt, they held court with him and they smoozed him.   From religious Lou I could understand it but I thought the FBI would be above that and at the time I was disappointed in someone using their credentials as FBI and yet being so susceptible to being influenced.  

23 hours ago, Regi said:

I don't remember your opinion about his analysis of the note, and needless to say, I'm interested to know what you'd think about it.

I was going to say here that I'm now withholding my opinion until I have read it but I guess I've already outed a little about what I feel.  So I'll have to go on with some of the top things that bothered me about it.  The first being what I just said and added to that I don't think he should have considered Patsy had background in acting.  True, it was just high school and some college acting BUT I think she practiced it throughout her time in the spotlight.  Second, I think Patsy's ego showed through in the note.  In particular, she liked her French words; e.g., Jon Benet' , even the dog was Jacque, and she slipped attache' into the note without being able to stop herself.  This, Patsy had been in advertising and worked with advertising copy.  Again, she messed up and used a printer's correction mark in the note.  You remember I worked in advertising for a few years and I know that I STILL use a few of those correction marks if I'm editing something.  

So those are my top three issues that I can remember going in.  After reading Thomas' book I was just incensed about how the Ramsey's got away with manipulating things to interfere with the investigation.  I really, truly was.  But I think I've mellowed enough with time and moving away from the case, that I can read it now with at least a partial open mind.  I really am intrigued with profiling.  I'm sure there are interesting things in his profile beyond what I just mentioned.  It's warmer today, I might make it to the library.  

23 hours ago, Regi said:

Sorry, control over what?

23 hours ago, Regi said:

I would guess that whoever uploaded it decided to remove it- heck if I know- but I heard it too (on CBS) and I didn't hear anything that sounded like anything.

Control over removing the recording is what I was referring to there.  How'd that disappear just when interest in Blake heated up ?  If I remember correctly (don't laugh) it was the Enquirer who had initially found the voice.  Someone heard what they thought was another voice and they (the Enquirer) sent it to NASA to clean up and magnify and voila they found Blake's voice.  From there they, (Jeff Shapiro maybe) sent it to the police. 

Every time I see Shapiro now, I'm impressed with him all over again.  He was a twentyish reporter, looking for a big pay story but he had enough ethics and cared enough about justice for JonBenet, he gave up the "in" Hunter was offering him and went to the police to try and stop him.  He gave up a lot at twenty when you're looking for a big break.  I've always been glad to see he made it into law.  This is one thing you have missed in the case by just sticking to Douglas as a one-source tells all.  There were people, Thomas, Schmit, the Atlanta Police Dept. and later, Fleet White (another hero) who were working as hard as they could and were being thwarted at every turn.  

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Regi
2 hours ago, Vincennes said:

It's warmer today, I might make it to the library. 

Are you sure they have it and/or if so, that it isn't on loan? If not, I'd do that first thing. :tu:

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