Choosing Death

[Coil]

On 19.11.2018 at 3:40 PM, XenoFish said:

I suppose that is the only real question. It isn't about the meaning, point or purpose of life. No, it's about choosing to live life till the end or end life at any time. Is life worth living?

You are right, let a person live as long as the body can live, and it is up to the doctor’s business to support and relieve suffering and not stop life, otherwise it serves death and not life. It’s just that in our modern time the patient can be maintained with medicines and equipment for a very long time and it turns out that doctors continue suffering the person and without the equipment the person could naturally die earlier and it becomes a problem and for relatives who need to spend big money on life support and the patient cannot die naturally.

 

[LightAngel]

On 19/11/2018 at 6:41 PM, ouija ouija said:

I'd like to hear your thoughts .

 

 

I already posted a topic about this!

All creatures should die when they want to!

Because I think we all know when it's our time......

 

 

[XenoFish]

3 hours ago, Coil said:

You are right, let a person live as long as the body can live, and it is up to the doctor’s business to support and relieve suffering and not stop life, otherwise it serves death and not life. It’s just that in our modern time the patient can be maintained with medicines and equipment for a very long time and it turns out that doctors continue suffering the person and without the equipment the person could naturally die earlier and it becomes a problem and for relatives who need to spend big money on life support and the patient cannot die naturally.

 

My point is that it is solely up to the individual to choose whether they want to live or not. 

[Coil]

20 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

My point is that it is solely up to the individual to choose whether they want to live or not. 

It only turns out that everyone wants to live happily and when it is difficult to quickly get out of this world. People do not want to endure the suffering and get rid of their sins on earth or understand it as a test for them. Even my classmate, as it became hard, began to think about suicide and constantly spoils his mood with defeatist thoughts.

And our business is not to do what you want (and democracy for me looks exactly like that now) but to do what is reasonable and brings good to others and does not cause a sense of shame or uncertainty.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Coil

[+ouija ouija]

46 minutes ago, LightAngel said:

 

I already posted a topic about this!

All creatures should die when they want to!

Because I think we all know when it's our time......

 

 

Hi LightAngel. This thread is perhaps a little different because it was prompted by the dilemmas shown in real cases when the subjects were quite sure they knew when they wanted to end their lives but the wishes and needs of others kept 'getting in the way'. 'No man is an island'!

[XenoFish]

5 minutes ago, Coil said:

It only turns out that everyone wants to live happily and when it is difficult to quickly get out of this world. People do not want to endure the suffering and get rid of their sins on earth or understand it as a test for them. Even my classmate, as it became hard, began to think about suicide and constantly spoils his mood with defeatist thoughts.

 

Maybe by being constantly bombarded by the idea of being a "sinful creature" some people find life meaningless. To them it might mean that they were a failure before birth. You really have no idea of the psychological damage that religion can induce. 

[+ouija ouija]

3 minutes ago, Coil said:

It only turns out that everyone wants to live happily and when it is difficult to quickly get out of this world. People do not want to endure the suffering and get rid of their sins on earth or understand it as a test for them. Even my classmate, as it became hard, began to think about suicide and constantly spoils his mood with defeatist thoughts.

 

We are only human and the amount of suffering each of us can endure varies significantly. I'm not sure why you connect suffering with getting rid of sins ..... to me that is a very odd way of looking at life. I don't believe suffering is a test . Don't be too hard on your classmate as there are several reasons why he may be feeling depressed: it may simply be his age, coming to terms with what life entails, or he may be lacking iron in his diet or be anaemic.

[LightAngel]

26 minutes ago, ouija ouija said:

Hi LightAngel. This thread is perhaps a little different because it was prompted by the dilemmas shown in real cases when the subjects were quite sure they knew when they wanted to end their lives but the wishes and needs of others kept 'getting in the way'. 'No man is an island'!

 

I know.

When you look at this from all sides, then it's a very complicated and painful question!

However....

If all hope is gone....... then please love them enough to let them die.

 

[Coil]

1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

Maybe by being constantly bombarded by the idea of being a "sinful creature" some people find life meaningless. You really have no idea of the psychological damage that religion can induce. 

I do not think that an ordinary person considers himself to be very sinful, so it is more characteristic of Christians of some kind of trends that go to church. A sick person thinks about recovery or if it is impossible to overcome the pain, then thinks about death.In general, do not slander religion.

Quote

To them it might mean that they were a failure before birth.

 

I don’t know about other nations but we don’t have such moods. It’s superfluous to consider our life erroneous and unsuccessful, if we managed to achieve the necessary plans or not.Perhaps the whole life of a person was to make a small step and this is better than nothing  and only great people make big steps.

1 hour ago, ouija ouija said:

We are only human and the amount of suffering each of us can endure varies significantly. I'm not sure why you connect suffering with getting rid of sins ..... to me that is a very odd way of looking at life. I don't believe suffering is a test .

Suffering a person gives old debts and if a person is relieved of suffering by euthanasia, he will have to get rid of them in the posthumous worlds and it is harder there than on earth, therefore the earthly is better to get rid of on earth.

So, suffering is an indicator that a person has done something wrong in life( in the case of Christ, this is another, voluntary suffering) and euthanasia is an easy way to interrupt life. But you are right that people have different degrees to withstand suffering and many cannot withstand it morally and can be understood in an attempt to get rid of in one fell swoop from suffering in old age. Older people are hard but usually we die in a hospital or at home under the supervision of loved ones.

I will tell you that the idea of euthanasia is absolutely alien to the mentality of the Ukrainians, and even if the doctors secretly do it, all the same it is not typical of our people. It also surprises me how in America they carefully care for sick dogs but also easily put them to sleep forever from humane motives. We would just  let out and let life say its word but not a doctor. And let this dog be old, blind or sick (but not mad) but let her walk on the street for the rest of her life.

If we could only ask our bodies, our cells would tell you that they want to live forever and even suffering is a struggle for life and an attempt to withstand the approach of death. Organism is the whole universe  and external invasion to end this life is regarded as a catastrophic blow to this complex organism before it itself decided to leave this body.
 

Quote

 

Don't be too hard on your classmate as there are several reasons why he may be feeling depressed: it may simply be his age, coming to terms with what life entails, or he may be lacking iron in his diet or be anaemic.

 

Yes, he may have a lack of something in the body: because of his illness, he lost much weight, he has weak immunity, his wife left him even earlier, he does not leave home because he is sick. He used to take pills that are addictive but now abandoned them and his body rebelled against it.Every time I see him he is getting worse and worse.

 

 

Edited November 21, 2018 by Coil

[Grandpa Greenman]

This is a tough topic for me. I've known friends who lived in siturations that for me death would be preferable. Those who know me, have heard about a friend of mine who was locked in, unable to see, speak or move. Kind of like Steven Hawking only worse, she didn't have the access to the technology he had. (I tried to get her help, but found in her economic situation no one would help her.)   She just laid there day after day, unable to even ask for a diaper change. I have known others in similer situations. If you can talk and interact with your caregivers, then you can manage.  But once you get to the point you can't even ask someone to change the channel on the TV, I can't only think life becomes a living hell. I have told my family, if I get that bad let me go.                                  

[+ouija ouija]

@Coil: I don't want to discuss this here, but your mindset is a million miles from mine. Although I will say this: if you can accept the idea of suffering in yourself and others, including animals, then you have never been truly tested (to use your word).

[Coil]

1 hour ago, ouija ouija said:

@Coil: I don't want to discuss this here, but your mindset is a million miles from mine. Although I will say this: if you can accept the idea of suffering in yourself and others, including animals, then you have never been truly tested (to use your word).

My grandmother and grandfather died and they suffered before death and I was near them but I didn’t have the desire to end their life ahead of time. That’s life and you have to go through to the end, I saw how the body shook in the desire to live and gasped for air and how with the last breath life goes out of the body.

For three days, my grandmother was lying dead, in the summer, in my room, until she was buried and I had to change the ice bottles around her body to slow down decomposition.They both died with a difference of one year but in the same month.

 

[+ouija ouija]

56 minutes ago, Coil said:

My grandmother and grandfather died and they suffered before death and I was near them but I didn’t have the desire to end their life ahead of time. That’s life and you have to go through to the end, I saw how the body shook in the desire to live and gasped for air and how with the last breath life goes out of the body.

For three days, my grandmother was lying dead, in the summer, in my room, until she was buried and I had to change the ice bottles around her body to slow down decomposition.They both died with a difference of one year but in the same month.

 

Only you know how difficult it was(or wasn't) to tend your grandmother and grandfather. I still say people vary greatly in what does and doesn't affect them adversely(physically and mentally). Sometimes it depends a lot on how long you have to endure suffering for. Circumstances come into play too. 

[Rlyeh]

5 hours ago, Coil said:

Suffering a person gives old debts and if a person is relieved of suffering by euthanasia, he will have to get rid of them in the posthumous worlds and it is harder there than on earth, therefore the earthly is better to get rid of on earth.

So you're anti-euthanasia because of superstitious bull****?

 

5 hours ago, Coil said:

So, suffering is an indicator that a person has done something wrong in life( in the case of Christ, this is another, voluntary suffering) and euthanasia is an easy way to interrupt life. But you are right that people have different degrees to withstand suffering and many cannot withstand it morally and can be understood in an attempt to get rid of in one fell swoop from suffering in old age. Older people are hard but usually we die in a hospital or at home under the supervision of loved ones.

Suffering is an indicator that a person has done something wrong? Can you prove this statement?

Because all you've shown is what a vile piece of **** you are and you're pathetically ignorant of biology.

 

5 hours ago, Coil said:

I will tell you that the idea of euthanasia is absolutely alien to the mentality of the Ukrainians, and even if the doctors secretly do it, all the same it is not typical of our people. It also surprises me how in America they carefully care for sick dogs but also easily put them to sleep forever from humane motives. We would just  let out and let life say its word but not a doctor. And let this dog be old, blind or sick (but not mad) but let her walk on the street for the rest of her life.

Ukraine has the 13th highest suicide rates in the world. You're full of ****. 

[Wistman]

@Coil  With all due respect to you, I wonder if you are not suffering yourself.  You seem shut down to me, emotionally.  The traumas of your own life may have overwhelmed your sense of empathy toward suffering beings, your sense of compassion.  This was one of Jesus of Nazareth's great gifts to the west's Abrahamic tradition.  The virtue of compassion.  If you wish to follow the ways of Jesus, you might visit his great path of virtue.  Not St. Paul's 'sacrifice of the mass' dogma or the early church fathers' rules of mindless conformity. 

[XenoFish]

Suffering is a constant reminder and motivator telling us we need to change something. If we can not change it or tolerate what is causing us to suffer, we must choose to continue on or end it all. 

Just a reminder to us all.

[Piney]

5 hours ago, Rlyeh said:

Ukraine has the 13th highest suicide rates in the world. You're full of ****. 

That's not counting the people who drink themselves to death there. 

[Piney]

12 hours ago, ouija ouija said:

I'm not sure why you connect suffering with getting rid of sins ..

It's Russian Orthodox doctrine. 

[Podo]

I am of the opinion that we all have the right to end our lives. I do believe that the process needs to include psychological evaluation and should be administered by a doctor in a controlled environment, but we as humans should never have to continue existing if we do not wish to do so. Thankfully my province recently legalized medically-assisted dying.

[+and-then]

On 11/19/2018 at 5:18 PM, mysticwerewolf said:

even family should be told to butt out.say goodbye and let them go. why should they suffer just so that someone else can feel good about whats happening.

Even this approach can be very complicated.  Slightly off-topic but I'm actually dealing with a very close childhood friend's grief over having to make a choice to allow his wife (56) to come off a ventilator and perhaps die in minutes or hours.  She wasn't feeling well and went to the ER.  They took her to radiology for some tests and her heart just stopped.  Even though resuscitation was begun immediately, she suffered a severe anoxic injury to part of her brain stem and basically lost everything she was, except the body and its ability to breathe.   My buddy was told that there was nothing more that could be offered to her medically and that her vegetative state was permanent.  She hadn't made a "living will" so he had to make the choice and is distraught over the idea of making a decision that will end her life and leave a horrible memory for every Thanksgiving he might see in the future.  He decided to put off pulling the vent until Monday, THEN remembered that his son's birthday is Monday.  There is a possibility that she'll live far longer but there are no guarantees.  It's a terribly wrenching situation.

[Coil]

13 hours ago, Rlyeh said:

So you're anti-euthanasia because of superstitious bull****?

I will tell you that euthanasia is complete nonsense that came to us from Europe as well as gay parades and instead of living normally and humanly I have to discuss this trashy human invention.

"People have the right to make decisions that others consider unreasonable, because their choices go through a competently sound process and are compatible with their personal values."

-American Medical Association

 

 "I will not give anyone the mortal means that I ask for and will not show the way for such a plan" ...
- The Hippocratic Oath

Thus, doctors who do euthanasia violate the doctor's oath and become supporters of death, and there is always justification and weighty arguments that this should be done at the request of the patient or relatives.But they should help and not kill people!

Quote

Suffering is an indicator that a person has done something wrong? Can you prove this statement?

Because all you've shown is what a vile piece of **** you are and you're pathetically ignorant of biology.

 

When a person touches the hot, the hand instinctively pushes away from the hot area so as not to burn the person, therefore pain-suffering in this case is an indicator for the person to quickly remove his hand. So pain is an indicator and a disease in a person causing pain is also an indicator that something is broken and you need to take measures to recover, and if the person is old, then let him die in peace, that's all that is required and do not need to invent various ways to outwit life.

Quote

Ukraine has the 13th highest suicide rates in the world. You're full of ****. 

 

Do not confuse the suicide of Ukrainians and medical euthanasia because they are different things.

We have a lot of suicides because now there is a war with Russia in the Donbass and a lot of military personnel do not withstand the harsh conditions of war.

[Rlyeh]

24 minutes ago, Coil said:

I will tell you that euthanasia is complete nonsense that came to us from Europe as well as gay parades and instead of living normally and humanly I have to discuss this trashy human invention.

Is having imaginary friends living normally? Or disease being the result of sin? No, it's ignorance.

 

24 minutes ago, Coil said:

Thus, doctors who do euthanasia violate the doctor's oath and become supporters of death, and there is always justification and weighty arguments that this should be done at the request of the patient or relatives.But they should help and not kill people!

Yet your deranged religion supports killing people.

 

24 minutes ago, Coil said:

When a person touches the hot, the hand instinctively pushes away from the hot area so as not to burn the person, therefore pain-suffering in this case is an indicator for the person to quickly remove his hand. So pain is an indicator and a disease in a person causing pain is also an indicator that something is broken and you need to take measures to recover, and if the person is old, then let him die in peace, that's all that is required and do not need to invent various ways to outwit life.

And if you can't recover then there needs to be the option of mercy.

Again nothing here implies the person did anything wrong, nor does the accusation make sense with genetic diseases and childhood cancer.

 

24 minutes ago, Coil said:

Do not confuse the suicide of Ukrainians and medical euthanasia because they are different things.

We have a lot of suicides because now there is a war with Russia in the Donbass and a lot of military personnel do not withstand the harsh conditions of war.

Ukraine was 13th place back in 2009, before the war with Russia.

[Coil]

1 hour ago, Rlyeh said:

 Or disease being the result of sin? No, it's ignorance.

 

Ignorance is also a form of sin because ignorance easily leads a person to erroneous actions, and wrong actions lead to pain and suffering, this is clearly Buddha said.

Quote

Again nothing here implies the person did anything wrong, nor does the accusation make sense with genetic diseases and childhood cancer.

Do not forget that there are hereditary diseases.
Besides this, people who commit suicide will still return to earth to continue life but not in such prosperous conditions as before, since the consequences of their actions will have to be overcome.

Regarding the downs and the insane, it is said that in such bodies there are punished spirits for what they did wrong in their past life and for that in their present life their minds were taken away from them in order to suspend their activities for one life but after physical death they again regain the ability to think rationally.

Quote

Ukraine was 13th place back in 2009, before the war with Russia.

Suicide is also very bad and in Ukraine it grew after the collapse of the USSR and the number of suicides is high among young people.

The main idea that I wanted to say is that a person is born through pain and leaves this world through pain and this is the price we pay for the difficult conditions on earth and biological life and if we intervene in the natural process of dying, then nature will punish us. If we want to overcome suffering and pain, we need to change the body and attain immortality that will bring humanity to the eternal youth of bodies- spiritual people say. Then neither death nor birth in pain will be but there will be another way of appearance on the physical level. The main thing is to overcome death then all diseases will be overcome. And to fight against diseases is to fight with consequence and not the cause.

 

 

[Rlyeh]

1 hour ago, Coil said:

Ignorance is also a form of sin because ignorance easily leads a person to erroneous actions, and wrong actions lead to pain and suffering, this is clearly Buddha said.

Why don't you stop making ignorant statements then?

 

1 hour ago, Coil said:

Do not forget that there are hereditary diseases.
Besides this, people who commit suicide will still return to earth to continue life but not in such prosperous conditions as before, since the consequences of their actions will have to be overcome.

Regarding the downs and the insane, it is said that in such bodies there are punished spirits for what they did wrong in their past life and for that in their present life their minds were taken away from them in order to suspend their activities for one life but after physical death they again regain the ability to think rationally.

Down syndrome is a punishment from a past life.. Lets not forget you're talking out of your **** here.

When do you gain the ability to think rationally? You continue to make idiotic statements we both know you have no chance in hell of supporting.

[Rlyeh]

1 hour ago, Coil said:

The main idea that I wanted to say is that a person is born through pain and leaves this world through pain and this is the price we pay for the difficult conditions on earth and biological life and if we intervene in the natural process of dying, then nature will punish us. If we want to overcome suffering and pain, we need to change the body and attain immortality that will bring humanity to the eternal youth of bodies- spiritual people say. Then neither death nor birth in pain will be but there will be another way of appearance on the physical level. The main thing is to overcome death then all diseases will be overcome. And to fight against diseases is to fight with consequence and not the cause.

You're contradicting yourself, by changing the body to gain immortality you have changed the natural process of dying.  Anyway nature doesn't punish us.

As you have shown again you know nothing about biology or disease.