Ragnarok and Atlantis: The Antediluvian World

[Kenemet]

7 hours ago, Polar said:

Eyjafjallajökull volcanic ash composite

(This is a composite map showing the position of the Icelandinc volcanic ash cloud that closed European air space in different days)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_eruptions_of_Eyjafjallajökull

You said that many meteoric events aren't recorded in myth, but this event was probably not as mild one as you seem to imply.

Just for the sake of comparison i here post a composite map of the volcanic ash cloud in 2010 as to show how far did it the influence of the icelandic Eyjafjallajökull volcano reach across the globe.If Greenland proves to be an impact crater at the beginning of the Holocene, people would not record only what they had seen fallen form the skies, but also the consequences of the impact itself, e.g. floods, earthquakes and volcanoes, etc...

A couple of points, here:

• Comparing a volcanic event to a meteor impact is like comparing apples to rabbits.  Volcanic events continue for a period of days (and in fact can go on for millions of years in the case of supervolcanos).  Meteor strikes are a single event... it would be more similar to a bomb going off than to a volcano.
• Volcanoes and earthquakes ARE associated (tectonic plates).  Meteors and earthquakes are NOT associated, just as bombs going off do not cause earthquakes.
• Bombs (even large ones) don't cause a lot of floods unless they hit in the area of a lake.  Meteor strike isn't going to cause one, either.
• The reason that volcanic events have such a high impact on the weather is that they are a continuous event that keeps on going and going.  Meteor impacts would toss up dust, which is far less in volume than the volcanic map you show.  Think of a drop of ink in a pitcher of water.  
• The impact would not be heard or felt around the world.. greatest distance where it could be heard (faintly) is 200 miles (basing on the explosion of Mt. Tambora)  It could only be seen for a few hundred miles (so... anyone living in Greenland (the Inuit) but nobody else.)
• It's actually doubtful that anyone saw it.  If it hit during the Ice Age, that's a big glacier.  There's no plants on the glacier, so no animals live there (birds fly over it, insects might be there).  That means there's no food on the glacier.  So nobody's going to be out there or on it.

 

Quote

https://phys.org/news/2018-11-huge-crater-greenland-impact-mammoths.html

I read your opinion, and respect it, but i find a bit exaggerated to say that recorded myth with regards to an extraterrestrial event does not hold water.

Large volcanic eruptions in ancient time did not match the size of the event at hand. It (Greenland impactor) produced a giant impact crater larger than Paris, or Washington. And even though one might not have seen it, for sure its influence was felt around the planet. Observe how Greenland northern region was attached to north America by an icy peninsula (almost exactly where the impact occurred).

https://notendur.hi.is/oi/quaternary_geology.htm

If you're trying to show that impactor events show up in myth, you have to give some counter-examples where a celestial event shows up in myth.  I know of several cases where they are recorded as omens (but the omens do not show up in myth.) 

Most of the world would have not been aware of the meteor or of any of its effects.  The only visual observers would have been Inuit.  They are the only ones who could have possibly heard the impact, even faintly.  No other peoples would have seen it or heard it -- the nearest land (Iceland) is more than 400 miles away and Norway is more than 800 miles from Greenland.  Elsewhere, the dust would have caused a slight reddening of the sunrise/sunset but probably only in the direction of Canada if this weather map is typical.   It's about 200 miles to the closest part of Canada... note that the area is only sparsely inhabited right now, and back then it would have been a glacial cap.  People don't, as a rule, live on glaciers because there's so little food there.

Again, comparing a meteor strike with a volcano is not a good example.  

To prove your hypothesis is plausible, you have to find a case where a meteor strike made it into mythology (and it's a clear example) and not into prophecy or omens (plenty of examples of this.)

 

Also note that the people pushing the Atlantis hypothesis keep ignoring the fact that Plato himself says the land didn't sink completely... it became "impassible mud flats."  

Edited November 27, 2018 by Kenemet

[Windowpane]

2 hours ago, Kenemet said:

 

Also note that the people pushing the Atlantis hypothesis keep ignoring the fact that Plato himself says the land didn't sink completely... it became "impassible mud flats."  

Examples of mud flats.

So which one of thes mud flats is Atlantis?

My money's on Snettisham ...

It's got a very pretty village sign with lots of blue sea, some sailors in sea-boots and a couple of smug sea-horses ... presumably looking smug because, although most people don't realise it, they know they come from Atlantis ...

[Razumov]

12 hours ago, Polar said:

Earthquakes, large floods (and tsunamis) can be the results of an impact. Would Plato make reference to this destructive power event as being completely unrelated to the consequences he later describes? Possible, but very unlikely...

You have mastered Donnelly's method of reasoning.

Edited November 28, 2018 by Razumov
sp

[Razumov]

Your Atlantispam is so lame.

Here is some Marcel Homet for you:

“The original inhabitants in the neighborhood of the San Augustin territory were simply known as the ‘People of the Tierra Dentro,’ because it was assumed that a considerable part of their lives had been spent in SUBTERRANEAN DWELLINGS. They lived ‘tierra dentro’—in the Earth…” 

“We know almost nothing of the people of Tierra Dentro WHO LIVED UNDERGROUN…it is certain that the mystery-enshrouded intruders who trampled down the culture of the Tierra Dentro are very much closer to us in time than the [subterranean] people of  San Augustin. In any case, the stone monuments of Tierra Dentro are of a special stamp: they were erected underground instead of on top of the ground…”

 “…If one traces the map of the ‘Migrations of the Sons of the Sun’ one is inclined to assume that there must have been a connection between the people of Tierra Dentro and the general mass of the new race which spread out over all South America. Their stone remains, the evidences of a Megalithic culture, the menhirs, dolmens, tumuli and Crom-lechs prove even today that there was a link and common foundation. These people and remnants of peoples [Giants] of prehistoric times have left behind them stone souvenirs, mute forms. But their ornamentation of symbols, inscriptions and pictures are only mute for us because we no longer understand what they are saying. Yet on our journeys of exploration in unknown regions of the Amazon, among innumerable inscriptions, we also found some of peculiarly Etruscan character. These are related to the letters of the Mediterranean people, of whom the explorer, Albert Grenier, says the following when urging scientists to take a good look at the linguistics of earliest history:

“THIS IS A PEOPLE WHICH SUDDENLY APPEARED OUT OF THE UNKNOWN, developed a great civilization and founded a considerable state. Where did it come from? Where did it take the germs of its civilization, its whole culture and art? People are still arguing about this…There are inscriptions, too, on the prehistoric monuments in South America that are related to the documents of the same people who once lived in and ruled Tuscany in pre-Roman days. Their earliest history is likewise veiled in mystery and darkness. These seals carved in stone are still mute for as yet they suggest a relationship, yes, we may even assume a common derivation for these very peoples of the Old and New World, whose earliest history is still a locked book. It may perhaps be that the [Subterranean] people of San Augustin and Tierra Dentro and the faraway Etruscans are descendants of the same…tribe: THE ATLANTEANS.”

http://www.darkstar1.co.uk/gregjenner5.html

“The ‘Axe Mountain’ or Serra do Machado is a mountainous excrescence that rises straight up out of the earth. Like all the mountains in this North Amazon region it towers steeply over the plain, which itself is only the bottom of a dried-up lake dating back to the Quaternary Period….”

“…The first thing that took our eye as we arrived at the top was a striking image of the sun engraved in the rock about sixteen feet above the ground. It was over six feet across and had well designed rays…”

“…Scarcely a hundred and fifty feet farther on we came to a rock on which a SECOND SUN was engraved. This one was much smaller… ‘There are two paths, cut into the rock, along the outside!’

"I looked sharply in the direction indicated. The first path began where we had found the gigantic sun. The SECOND ONE started from the spot where we were standing and from the SECOND, SMALLER SUN…”

“…The rays from BOTH OF THESE ENGRAVED SUNS did not run in straight lines. Quite the contrary, they were bent…and ran from left to right. There could be no doubt of it, these TWO SUNS were engraved at the entrance of an important burial place: they probably pointed to a forbidden entrance…”

“…This burial place in the caves [at the top] of the Serra do Machado offers extremely valuable evidence concerning ancient religions. It is a genuine burial crypt with urns full of bones that are all painted red…”

“…In the upper part of the crypt we saw a frieze of many red ochre drawings, depicting alligators, turtles, SUNS, archaic letters…”

“…This discovery…was of particular interest if only for the fact that the SUN SYMBOL of the Serra do Machado was perhaps cut into the rock ten thousand years ago. We were very preoccupied as we climbed down and passed the forbidding emblem of the ‘BEWITCHED SUN’ which guarded the entrance to the sacred burial place…”

“I went back in my thoughts to the superb ethnographical and archaeological collections of the Musée de l’Homme in Paris. There…a stone over fifteen feet long and over nine feet high. It was found in Quiriqua in Yucatan sun which is represented with feet and called ‘THE WANDERING SUN’…”

“After I had photographed my new discovery and made an exact copy of the inscriptions, we were preparing to return. Just then our Indian called out: ‘Look here! There are drawings of the sun!’ With one jump I climbed up the rock and there, shaded by the overhanging boughs of a tree, I DISCOVERED TWO WONDERFUL ‘WANDERING SUNS.’ the sun’s disc was…drawn with feet around it…”

“…When we went back to our tent…and with bated breath I read what the famous member of the Institut de France had to say: ‘Dolmens ornamented with inscriptions and WANDERING SUNS are absolutely specialized objects and are to be found only in Brittany, in Scandinavia and in England with special variations. So I was not mistaken. This was ornamented with inscriptions like the Celtic the Peruvian of the Pre-Inca period…I had discovered at one and the same time master examples of analogous dolmens and also ‘wandering suns’ of the Europo-Celtic culture out here on the Amazon…”

http://www.darkstar1.co.uk/gregjenner6.html

A Letter From Professor Marcel Homet, Rio de Janerio, 25th March 1960 (excerpts)

You will be interested to know that my book the 'Son of the Sun' has been published in Germany and Switzerland under the title: "Die Sohne der Sonne"; in Brazil as 'Filhos do Sol'; in Chile as 'Dos Hijos del Sol', and thanks to Mr. Ayob, it should shortly appear in the U.S.A. The book is being followed by another one which will be more on a scientific basis, this is called 'A la Poursuite des Dieux Solaires', and it is at the present moment with a Swiss publisher who is considering it. You will be interested to note that one of the tribes which I visited recently is called 'Iaveh' and has a ruined, but accessible capital city, with graves, called Canaan. They have blue or light colored eyes and an abundance of wavy hair. They have several traditions, which include the following:

A Floodstory where the tribal ancestor was warned of the disaster and embarked with his family on a fleet of pirogues to reach the upper parts of the country. Everything was destroyed by fire . An enormous fish eat many of the children of the tribe. Then the waters dropped. But as, after this, there was no longer enough water for all to live, the tribe split into groups (Diespota) and the common language broke up into dialects.

The Son of God, named Kano-Siva, died. His body decomposed. But when the great Sun God heard of this he revived his dead son telling him: 'Now go and teach the new ideas to the world'.

This tribe share with another tribe, the Tapirapes, a story of a lost earthly paradise, which runs as follows:

" Once upon a time people lived at the bottom of a deep lake. In the middle of the lake there was a hole through which the Solar God came to them. These people knew nothing of the earth, and also knew nothing of death and illness. One day, however, the son of the chief fell ill. In despair some of the young people decided to ascend to the earth to learn how to treat the disease. They met a chief who said "Do not kill me and I will show you the universal panacea which cures all illness". And he took them to a great tree where he showed them some honey. The young people returned home with the precious gift and the son of the chief was cured. But, inspired by the story of the journey: sky, flowers, streams, earth, the inhabitants of the lake decide to emigrate, and climbing through the hole they made their way towards the surface. But their priest ordered them not to leave. When they refused he cursed them. After some time in their new home they came across the carcasses of animals, dead trees, etc., and thus came to know illness and death. Then, becoming afraid, they decided to return to their ancestral home but on arriving at the hole they found their passage blocked by a huge serpent. In this way they lost their paradise and knew death and disease."Naturally my dear Mr. Egerton you will think that these tales were influenced by missionaries. But an old friend of mine, Mgr. Luiz Palha, Bishop of Conceicao de Araguaia (Estado de Goias) who came there as a missonary some thirty years ago, assures me that at that time the indians had never seen a white man. And he guarantees absolutely the intrinsic value of these pre European traditions. If you desire further details you can always write to him. About 500 klm from this region, in Amazon Basin, a moderate distance over here, I found thousands of extraordinary inscriptions which could be called of a Mediterranean type, if it had not been for the fact that they are much older than the earliest civilizations of the Near East, being from eight to ten thousand years old. There is a Sun with 35 flames, a Lotus (Baal), Swastikas, Maltese Crosses, etc. I also came across traces of a megatherium of which I photographed the footprints, and also a rock drawing. All this was in the Cadimee Mountains. A thousand or more kilometers from there I found the only Cro-Magnon statuette to be discovered in this part of the world. It is in a metamorphic rock, Phyllite, and the patina on it has been analyzed chemically and dated at 8 to 10 thousand years. This statuette was accompanied by all the usual Magnalenian artifacts: Burins, Scrapers, knives, etc., and a magnificent statuette of a fossilized Steatopyge Venus, which my chemist says dates from the same period. In the North east of Brazil, there has just been discovered artifacts and skeletal remains, dating back some 25,000 years. The specialists who have been dealing with this, only two months ago, affirm that we are dealing with American Man and that all the earlier theories are mistaken. Three months ago an aircraft passing over the Sierra Parima, the object of my present expedition, saw MY town, which I have described in the 'Son of the Sun'. The pilot wanted to return there but he could not find it again. But an engineer working on a new Belem-Brasilia road, which will link the coast with the new capital of Brazil, decided to search for the site after having been told by the pilot that he had perfectly recognized the lines of ruined columns along with streets. As I am the only other person to know the exact bearings of this town the engineer came to consult me. One of these days we hope to leave with a Catalina aircraft with some 20 parachutists on board who will be dropped over the site. They will cut a landing strip so that a month or so later we shall be able to return and investigate the site.

Marcel Homet.

http://www.oocities.org/motorcity/factory/2583/homet.htm

 

 

[+DieChecker]

On 11/25/2018 at 1:18 PM, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

I personally think Ragnarok was the best of Marvel’s Thor Trilogy, and only a fool believes that Loki is dead. I mean, the Angel Of Death could literally come for everyone in the Marvel universe and once they’ve reaped them all, pull off a rubber mask to reveal them to be Loki, smirking away.

I agree Loki is not dead.

[+DieChecker]

Regardless of meteors, craters, volcanos and whatnot, I don't believe there's be a single point of evidence of a giant island just outside the Mediterranean.

The geology would be obvious if a large island had sunk there.

Doesn't the whole quote of Plato involve a military Athens thousands of years before it was even founded? Before ships were even invented. And the whole thing set in motion and monitored by the Greek Gods? How much more fiction piled on top is required, with zero real world facts, to call this what Plato intended it to be.... an allegory referring to Egypt of his day?

Edited November 28, 2018 by DieChecker

[Polar]

8 hours ago, Razumov said:

Your Atlantispam is so lame.

Here is some Marcel Homet for you:

“The original inhabitants in the neighborhood of the San Augustin territory were simply known as the ‘People of the Tierra Dentro,’ because it was assumed that a considerable part of their lives had been spent in SUBTERRANEAN DWELLINGS. They lived ‘tierra dentro’—in the Earth…” 

“We know almost nothing of the people of Tierra Dentro WHO LIVED UNDERGROUN…it is certain that the mystery-enshrouded intruders who trampled down the culture of the Tierra Dentro are very much closer to us in time than the [subterranean] people of  San Augustin. In any case, the stone monuments of Tierra Dentro are of a special stamp: they were erected underground instead of on top of the ground…”

 “…If one traces the map of the ‘Migrations of the Sons of the Sun’ one is inclined to assume that there must have been a connection between the people of Tierra Dentro and the general mass of the new race which spread out over all South America. Their stone remains, the evidences of a Megalithic culture, the menhirs, dolmens, tumuli and Crom-lechs prove even today that there was a link and common foundation. These people and remnants of peoples [Giants] of prehistoric times have left behind them stone souvenirs, mute forms. But their ornamentation of symbols, inscriptions and pictures are only mute for us because we no longer understand what they are saying. Yet on our journeys of exploration in unknown regions of the Amazon, among innumerable inscriptions, we also found some of peculiarly Etruscan character. These are related to the letters of the Mediterranean people, of whom the explorer, Albert Grenier, says the following when urging scientists to take a good look at the linguistics of earliest history:

“THIS IS A PEOPLE WHICH SUDDENLY APPEARED OUT OF THE UNKNOWN, developed a great civilization and founded a considerable state. Where did it come from? Where did it take the germs of its civilization, its whole culture and art? People are still arguing about this…There are inscriptions, too, on the prehistoric monuments in South America that are related to the documents of the same people who once lived in and ruled Tuscany in pre-Roman days. Their earliest history is likewise veiled in mystery and darkness. These seals carved in stone are still mute for as yet they suggest a relationship, yes, we may even assume a common derivation for these very peoples of the Old and New World, whose earliest history is still a locked book. It may perhaps be that the [Subterranean] people of San Augustin and Tierra Dentro and the faraway Etruscans are descendants of the same…tribe: THE ATLANTEANS.”

http://www.darkstar1.co.uk/gregjenner5.html

“The ‘Axe Mountain’ or Serra do Machado is a mountainous excrescence that rises straight up out of the earth. Like all the mountains in this North Amazon region it towers steeply over the plain, which itself is only the bottom of a dried-up lake dating back to the Quaternary Period….”

“…The first thing that took our eye as we arrived at the top was a striking image of the sun engraved in the rock about sixteen feet above the ground. It was over six feet across and had well designed rays…”

“…Scarcely a hundred and fifty feet farther on we came to a rock on which a SECOND SUN was engraved. This one was much smaller… ‘There are two paths, cut into the rock, along the outside!’

"I looked sharply in the direction indicated. The first path began where we had found the gigantic sun. The SECOND ONE started from the spot where we were standing and from the SECOND, SMALLER SUN…”

“…The rays from BOTH OF THESE ENGRAVED SUNS did not run in straight lines. Quite the contrary, they were bent…and ran from left to right. There could be no doubt of it, these TWO SUNS were engraved at the entrance of an important burial place: they probably pointed to a forbidden entrance…”

“…This burial place in the caves [at the top] of the Serra do Machado offers extremely valuable evidence concerning ancient religions. It is a genuine burial crypt with urns full of bones that are all painted red…”

“…In the upper part of the crypt we saw a frieze of many red ochre drawings, depicting alligators, turtles, SUNS, archaic letters…”

“…This discovery…was of particular interest if only for the fact that the SUN SYMBOL of the Serra do Machado was perhaps cut into the rock ten thousand years ago. We were very preoccupied as we climbed down and passed the forbidding emblem of the ‘BEWITCHED SUN’ which guarded the entrance to the sacred burial place…”

“I went back in my thoughts to the superb ethnographical and archaeological collections of the Musée de l’Homme in Paris. There…a stone over fifteen feet long and over nine feet high. It was found in Quiriqua in Yucatan sun which is represented with feet and called ‘THE WANDERING SUN’…”

“After I had photographed my new discovery and made an exact copy of the inscriptions, we were preparing to return. Just then our Indian called out: ‘Look here! There are drawings of the sun!’ With one jump I climbed up the rock and there, shaded by the overhanging boughs of a tree, I DISCOVERED TWO WONDERFUL ‘WANDERING SUNS.’ the sun’s disc was…drawn with feet around it…”

“…When we went back to our tent…and with bated breath I read what the famous member of the Institut de France had to say: ‘Dolmens ornamented with inscriptions and WANDERING SUNS are absolutely specialized objects and are to be found only in Brittany, in Scandinavia and in England with special variations. So I was not mistaken. This was ornamented with inscriptions like the Celtic the Peruvian of the Pre-Inca period…I had discovered at one and the same time master examples of analogous dolmens and also ‘wandering suns’ of the Europo-Celtic culture out here on the Amazon…”

http://www.darkstar1.co.uk/gregjenner6.html

A Letter From Professor Marcel Homet, Rio de Janerio, 25th March 1960 (excerpts)

You will be interested to know that my book the 'Son of the Sun' has been published in Germany and Switzerland under the title: "Die Sohne der Sonne"; in Brazil as 'Filhos do Sol'; in Chile as 'Dos Hijos del Sol', and thanks to Mr. Ayob, it should shortly appear in the U.S.A. The book is being followed by another one which will be more on a scientific basis, this is called 'A la Poursuite des Dieux Solaires', and it is at the present moment with a Swiss publisher who is considering it. You will be interested to note that one of the tribes which I visited recently is called 'Iaveh' and has a ruined, but accessible capital city, with graves, called Canaan. They have blue or light colored eyes and an abundance of wavy hair. They have several traditions, which include the following:

A Floodstory where the tribal ancestor was warned of the disaster and embarked with his family on a fleet of pirogues to reach the upper parts of the country. Everything was destroyed by fire . An enormous fish eat many of the children of the tribe. Then the waters dropped. But as, after this, there was no longer enough water for all to live, the tribe split into groups (Diespota) and the common language broke up into dialects.

The Son of God, named Kano-Siva, died. His body decomposed. But when the great Sun God heard of this he revived his dead son telling him: 'Now go and teach the new ideas to the world'.

This tribe share with another tribe, the Tapirapes, a story of a lost earthly paradise, which runs as follows:

" Once upon a time people lived at the bottom of a deep lake. In the middle of the lake there was a hole through which the Solar God came to them. These people knew nothing of the earth, and also knew nothing of death and illness. One day, however, the son of the chief fell ill. In despair some of the young people decided to ascend to the earth to learn how to treat the disease. They met a chief who said "Do not kill me and I will show you the universal panacea which cures all illness". And he took them to a great tree where he showed them some honey. The young people returned home with the precious gift and the son of the chief was cured. But, inspired by the story of the journey: sky, flowers, streams, earth, the inhabitants of the lake decide to emigrate, and climbing through the hole they made their way towards the surface. But their priest ordered them not to leave. When they refused he cursed them. After some time in their new home they came across the carcasses of animals, dead trees, etc., and thus came to know illness and death. Then, becoming afraid, they decided to return to their ancestral home but on arriving at the hole they found their passage blocked by a huge serpent. In this way they lost their paradise and knew death and disease."Naturally my dear Mr. Egerton you will think that these tales were influenced by missionaries. But an old friend of mine, Mgr. Luiz Palha, Bishop of Conceicao de Araguaia (Estado de Goias) who came there as a missonary some thirty years ago, assures me that at that time the indians had never seen a white man. And he guarantees absolutely the intrinsic value of these pre European traditions. If you desire further details you can always write to him. About 500 klm from this region, in Amazon Basin, a moderate distance over here, I found thousands of extraordinary inscriptions which could be called of a Mediterranean type, if it had not been for the fact that they are much older than the earliest civilizations of the Near East, being from eight to ten thousand years old. There is a Sun with 35 flames, a Lotus (Baal), Swastikas, Maltese Crosses, etc. I also came across traces of a megatherium of which I photographed the footprints, and also a rock drawing. All this was in the Cadimee Mountains. A thousand or more kilometers from there I found the only Cro-Magnon statuette to be discovered in this part of the world. It is in a metamorphic rock, Phyllite, and the patina on it has been analyzed chemically and dated at 8 to 10 thousand years. This statuette was accompanied by all the usual Magnalenian artifacts: Burins, Scrapers, knives, etc., and a magnificent statuette of a fossilized Steatopyge Venus, which my chemist says dates from the same period. In the North east of Brazil, there has just been discovered artifacts and skeletal remains, dating back some 25,000 years. The specialists who have been dealing with this, only two months ago, affirm that we are dealing with American Man and that all the earlier theories are mistaken. Three months ago an aircraft passing over the Sierra Parima, the object of my present expedition, saw MY town, which I have described in the 'Son of the Sun'. The pilot wanted to return there but he could not find it again. But an engineer working on a new Belem-Brasilia road, which will link the coast with the new capital of Brazil, decided to search for the site after having been told by the pilot that he had perfectly recognized the lines of ruined columns along with streets. As I am the only other person to know the exact bearings of this town the engineer came to consult me. One of these days we hope to leave with a Catalina aircraft with some 20 parachutists on board who will be dropped over the site. They will cut a landing strip so that a month or so later we shall be able to return and investigate the site.

Marcel Homet.

http://www.oocities.org/motorcity/factory/2583/homet.htm

 

 

I surrender to the evidences presented. Can someone close this thread? Thanks a lot.