Pro-life Want The Death Penalty!

[danydandan]

I was reading an article about a bill that's being debated or discussed in Ohio, it's a pro-life bill that's making it possible to criminalise pregnant women and women who have had an abortion. 

The bill is called HB 565, it's looking to redifine what constitutes as abortion. It's also looking to define an abortion as taking place from fertilization to birth.

"The measure also redefines abortion to mean the purposeful termination of a pregnancy by any person, including the pregnant person, any method, including, but not limited to, chemical methods, medical methods, and surgical methods.”

Under this Ohio bill, a pregnant person or abortion provider could be subject to criminal charges, including the charge of murder. They could face life in prison or the death penalty. The bill includes a provision that says the pregnant person can avoid these consequences in criminal or civil court if they are willing to be part of a hearing, provide information to investigators, or make a report. But this does not apply to health care providers performing abortions.

So how can you be pro-life and ok with carrying out a potential death penalty? Fairly contradictory and oxymoronic isn't it? Any America's that can provide some insight into this?

https://www.legislature.ohio.gov/legislation/legislation-summary?id=GA132-HB-565

Edited November 21, 2018 by danydandan

[+Not A Rockstar]

No, no insight. I am pro-life, and so that rules under my roof. It stops at the property line. 

It seems to be the thing everywhere, though, that people believe, really believe, they have a right to an opinion about everybody else and what they do or think. Get an opinionated "savior" on a mission and give him a bill or judge or platform and he will be every bit as evil as the enemy he is resisting. Everybody knows better than the other guy, you know?

One has to depend on sanity to prevail but there is less of that by the day it seems  

[danydandan]

1 minute ago, Not A Rockstar said:

No, no insight. I am pro-life, and so that rules under my roof. It stops at the property line. 

It seems to be the thing everywhere, though, that people believe, really believe, they have a right to an opinion about everybody else and what they do or think. Get an opinionated "savior" on a mission and give him a bill or judge or platform and he will be every bit as evil as the enemy he is resisting. Everybody knows better than the other guy, you know?

One has to depend on sanity to prevail but there is less of that by the day it seems  

Are in favour of the death penalty?

[+Not A Rockstar]

1 minute ago, danydandan said:

Are in favour of the death penalty?

In this? No. In some cases, like heinous murders and especially of pedophiles, yes I still lean that way. I am not hard core about it, but, I used to be. Now, I lean in favor of it for some applications.

[danydandan]

2 minutes ago, Not A Rockstar said:

In this? No. In some cases, like heinous murders and especially of pedophiles, yes I still lean that way. I am not hard core about it, but, I used to be. Now, I lean in favor of it for some applications.

I'm of the same persuasion as you on the subject. But I'm pro-choice. 

 

[EsotericScience]

IDK what to say here. Abortion is deplorable but I blame the parents. Punish the parents for being failures & the doctors for being murders & whoever knocked her up for his lack of sense & self control.

Edited November 21, 2018 by EsotericScience

[+Not A Rockstar]

22 minutes ago, danydandan said:

I'm of the same persuasion as you on the subject. But I'm pro-choice. 

 

I am pro-life, however I am pro-safe options for those who disagree with me. Murder is as bad if it is a scared teenager getting a botched abortion, or a final trimester infant dying by a partial birth abortion. Both scenarios horrify me.

[danydandan]

I'm not wanting this to become a pro-life vs pro-choice thread. Too volatile for my taste.

However I'm trying to wrap my head around the illogicalities of being pro-life and being pro death penalty.

It's just a jump I can't seem to accept.

[Farmer77]

11 minutes ago, danydandan said:

I'm not wanting this to become a pro-life vs pro-choice thread. Too volatile for my taste.

However I'm trying to wrap my head around the illogicalities of being pro-life and being pro death penalty.

It's just a jump I can't seem to accept.

In the past I justified the inconsistency with innocence .  A fetus hasnt committed any sins whereas the criminal clearly deserved the punishment he got.

Granted that requires one to wholly ignore the glaring problems with our criminal justice system........but when one's worldview is based on the bible it is literally impossible to act because of those flaws or largely even to see them as flaws because ya know "render unto Caesar" and all of that . (except of course for the American revolution but pay that no mind.....christians over here are a very confused lot)

 

Edited November 21, 2018 by Farmer77

[danydandan]

9 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

In the past I justified the inconsistency with innocence .  A fetus hasnt committed any sins whereas the criminal clearly deserved the punishment he got.

Granted that requires one to wholly ignore the glaring problems with our criminal justice system........but when one's worldview is based on the bible it is literally impossible to act because of those flaws or largely even to see them as flaws because ya know "render unto Caesar" and all of that . (except of course for the American revolution but pay that no mind.....christians over here are a very confused lot)

 

The Bible says that live begins at first breath. So a biblical argument for being pro-life falls flat. 

But anyways our Irish justice system is a trainwreck, but I do wish they'd be willing to reintroduce the death penalty for murder, rape, child abuse and the like. 

What’s disturbing to me is the fact so many people claim to be pro-life and oppose abortion but, in stark contrast, defend capital punishment. In my opinion, being pro-life means opposing the taking of life. That's it no exceptions.

"Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor. If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person. Today in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm – without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself – the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity ‘are very rare, if not practically nonexistent." 

This is the Catholic Churches stance on the subject. 

"Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person – among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life. […] Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law…”

That's very contradictory.

[Farmer77]

Just now, danydandan said:

What’s disturbing to me is the fact so many people claim to be pro-life and oppose abortion but, in stark contrast, defend capital punishment. In my opinion, being pro-life means opposing the taking of life. That's it no exceptions.

I've found those same folks are also the biggest war hawks.

3 minutes ago, danydandan said:

But anyways our Irish justice system is a trainwreck, but I do wish they'd be willing to reintroduce the death penalty for murder, rape, child abuse and the like. 

I'm an "I'd a rather see 100 guilty men go free than a single innocent hang " kind of guy.

10 minutes ago, danydandan said:

"Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor. If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person. Today in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm – without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself – the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity ‘are very rare, if not practically nonexistent." 

This is the Catholic Churches stance on the subject. 

"Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person – among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life. […] Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law…”

That's very contradictory.

IMO 21st century  Christianity is a series of massive contradictions and that's what hugely led me to walk away from the church.  Religion has faded in favor of ideology and their ideology has overridden their morality.

 

 

[RAyMO]

3 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

IMO 21st century  Christianity is a series of massive contradictions and that's what hugely led me to walk away from the church.  Religion has faded in favor of ideology and their ideology has overridden their morality.

^this

[danydandan]

11 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

I've found those same folks are also the biggest war hawks.

I'm an "I'd a rather see 100 guilty men go free than a single innocent hang " kind of guy.

IMO 21st century  Christianity is a series of massive contradictions and that's what hugely led me to walk away from the church.  Religion has faded in favor of ideology and their ideology has overridden their morality.

 

 

You and I agree with each other so.

[RAyMO]

24 minutes ago, danydandan said:

But anyways our Irish justice system is a trainwreck, but I do wish they'd be willing to reintroduce the death penalty for murder, rape, child abuse and the like.

I don't have any knowledge of the Irish Justice, but I assume it is likely as any other to sentence innocent people. 

Cases like rape, child abuse, murder in particular - will naturally bring out emotions in us - I know when hearing such news on the radio or tv I have exclaimed "Hang the bast.." or whatever.

But if there was a referendum would I support capital punishment NO. Not that any civilised government should hold such a referendum IMO.

[RAyMO]

Just to add to the above point - I do believe that life should mean life (unless wrongly convicted off course) and prison, certainly for 'Lifers' should be more, well, prison like.

[Imaginarynumber1]

Yeah, funny how 17 out of the 18 sponors of this bill are men. 

Republicans sure are scared of uteruses. 

[danydandan]

14 minutes ago, RAyMO said:

I don't have any knowledge of the Irish Justice, but I assume it is likely as any other to sentence innocent people. 

Cases like rape, child abuse, murder in particular - will naturally bring out emotions in us - I know when hearing such news on the radio or tv I have exclaimed "Hang the bast.." or whatever.

But if there was a referendum would I support capital punishment NO. Not that any civilised government should hold such a referendum IMO.

I have issues particularly with the amount of concurrent sentences handed down here. As in just last week a guy was charged and convicted of raping his daughter 13 times he got ten years in prison. A similar case was heard in the US somewhere, the guy got 10 life sentences in the US. 

Irish justice system is a joke.

[Duke Wellington]

2 hours ago, danydandan said:

I was reading an article about a bill that's being debated or discussed in Ohio, it's a pro-life bill that's making it possible to criminalise pregnant women and women who have had an abortion. 

The bill is called HB 565, it's looking to redifine what constitutes as abortion. It's also looking to define an abortion as taking place from fertilization to birth.

"The measure also redefines abortion to mean the purposeful termination of a pregnancy by any person, including the pregnant person, any method, including, but not limited to, chemical methods, medical methods, and surgical methods.”

Under this Ohio bill, a pregnant person or abortion provider could be subject to criminal charges, including the charge of murder. They could face life in prison or the death penalty. The bill includes a provision that says the pregnant person can avoid these consequences in criminal or civil court if they are willing to be part of a hearing, provide information to investigators, or make a report. But this does not apply to health care providers performing abortions.

So how can you be pro-life and ok with carrying out a potential death penalty? Fairly contradictory and oxymoronic isn't it? Any America's that can provide some insight into this?

https://www.legislature.ohio.gov/legislation/legislation-summary?id=GA132-HB-565

At what point does a foetus move from being meat to a human being? The law here puts it at 24 weeks.

If we go earlier than that just to make sure (say 4 weeks) then its not a baby.

Edited November 21, 2018 by RabidMongoose

[danydandan]

5 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

At what point does a foetus move from being meat to a human being? The law here puts it at 24 weeks.

If we go earlier than that just to make sure (say 4 weeks) then its not a baby.

There are many many arguments. But I don't particularly want to discuss that aspect if the topic.

What I'm more interested in is how one can logically call themselves pro-life and support the death sentence.

[RAyMO]

10 minutes ago, danydandan said:

I have issues particularly with the amount of concurrent sentences handed down here. As in just last week a guy was charged and convicted of raping his daughter 13 times he got ten years in prison. A similar case was heard in the US somewhere, the guy got 10 life sentences in the US. 

Irish justice system is a joke.

Agree, things like this send shudders. Justice must be see to be done and in this case it just doesn't.

[Duke Wellington]

1 minute ago, danydandan said:

There are many many arguments. But I don't particularly want to discuss that aspect if the topic.

What I'm more interested in is how one can logically call themselves pro-life and support the death sentence.

I am pro-life in that I dont agree with euthanasia.

But with abortion at what point is it killing a human instead of killing meat? For me it isn't a death sentence if its a blob of fairly unspecialised cells. If it has a brain to me that is murder.

[preacherman76]

1 hour ago, danydandan said:

The Bible says that live begins at first breath. So a biblical argument for being pro-life falls flat. 

The bible say's God knew you before you even entered the womb. So no it doesn't fall flat.

[danydandan]

10 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

I am pro-life in that I dont agree with euthanasia.

But with abortion at what point is it killing a human instead of killing meat? For me it isn't a death sentence if its a blob of fairly unspecialised cells. If it has a brain to me that is murder.

Ok I understand.

Like I said there are many arguments, some argue that fertilisation is the cut off point, that's one extreme. The other is when a child is self aware. Considering that can take up to three to four years then you could see someone arguing that killing an infant is justifiable. 

For personally I just don't know to be honest. But I'm of the opinion that when the fetus can survive without being in the womb, that's the cut off point, so twenty four weeks. But I'm pro-choice but a very restricted version of that.

Edited November 21, 2018 by danydandan

[danydandan]

11 minutes ago, RAyMO said:

Agree, things like this send shudders. Justice must be see to be done and in this case it just doesn't.

Yeah it's sickened me. 

Sometimes I wish a sniper would take a few of these monsters before they can go to prison.

[Gromdor]

Well, there is a weird logic to it.  You can't have a forest fire if you chop down all the trees.  Maybe the men responsible for crafting this bill think that by threatening jail and the death penalty they can solve the abortion issue without addressing any of the underlying causes?