God and science

[Coil]

5 hours ago, sci-nerd said:

What I would like to ask believers of God, is why is he hiding? Why would he make this and then hide? Be silent. Be invisible.

And why do you think that God should appear to you and not you should strive to comprehend him? It turns out injustice because religious people seek God through prayer or meditation and spend many lives on it and even sacrifice themselves, and for you he must make an exception. Don't you understand that God is always in your heart and you just need to look inside your consciousness? God is always there and waiting for you. You only need to make efforts. You can wait for the appearance of God for as long as you want but a miracle will not happen until you decide to open the door leading to God. God is not passive but he helps those who are actively looking for him.If you take a step towards God, he will take two steps towards you.

[danydandan]

7 hours ago, markdohle said:

DannyDanDan sayd:   What do you want to discuss? 

Is there a point to this? 

Or should the moderators be hovering over the thread closed button? 

I believe that belief in God is logical.  It gets tiring when believers are told that their belief is based on a lack of proof or faith in 'some sort of magic man n the sky.   There are good reasons to believe in God, I believe this video shows that.  However when it comes to religion, the God of the religions, that is another matter.  My faith comes from my choice to look upon the Bible as a revelation of the nature of God, which is fulfilled in the New Testament.  Anthony Flew, for instances, remained a diest till the day he died, and did not believe in an afterlife, did not want one, as a matter of fact.   It was his study of DNA that brought him to the understanding that there had to be intelligence behind the Universe.

Peace
Mark

Actually to introduce logic into this is a fallacy.

I'm a Theist, but an Agnostic one at that. That's the only logical conclusion.

[Rlyeh]

8 hours ago, markdohle said:

There are good reasons to believe in God, I believe this video shows that.

The video doesn't present any good reasons.  The reasoning in the video is events were created to result in a specific outcome rather than the other way around.

If you were hit by lightning tomorrow does that imply every moment in your life being manipulated to achieve that result?

[eight bits]

5 hours ago, Guyver said:

 Because the universe making itself makes no sense whatsoever when you think about it.

From what I read, God supposedly managed it. Why not hydrogen?

Hydrogen is simpler than any god I've read about, and a lot less nosy.

[SHaYap]

Hydrogen ? Why not Helium ? I like Helium ...

~
 

[00.04:02]

 

~

[psyche101]

12 hours ago, markdohle said:

DannyDanDan sayd:   What do you want to discuss? 

Is there a point to this? 

Or should the moderators be hovering over the thread closed button? 

I believe that belief in God is logical.  It gets tiring when believers are told that their belief is based on a lack of proof or faith in 'some sort of magic man n the sky.   There are good reasons to believe in God, I believe this video shows that. 

I think you should say how it applies. 

It says:

This universe is supposed to be filled with other intelligent life and that because estimates of contacting others in the 60s were out so.... God. 

That claim is ridiculous. Sure there are thousands of potential planets capable of supporting life, its not taking into account that some planets like venus are in this category and the simple fact that messages sent at the speed of light would have to have originated when dinosaurs walked the earth to arrive here now. It would be like a one legged drunk man on a boat trying to hit a dartboard carried by a skier while blind folded and throwing over his back. 

It says Sagan originally only stated 2 parameters for life back in the day and now there is over 200.

So knowledge grew since the first pioneers theorised those boundaries, how's that proof of God? 

It says 

The big bang had to be just right for the universe to look this way. 

Again, how is this proof of God at all? This person is assuming the big bang happened only once. How does he prove that? There are multiverse theories that he is completely ignoring, and the fact that who is to day the big bang didn't happen billions of billions of times before a stable universe that lasted more than moments finally hit the right odds? Did the big bang happen just once? Did life first arise just once? I don't think anyone can answer that question. 

It just seems to be an opinion. I'm not seeing science supporting theism. 

 

12 hours ago, markdohle said:

However when it comes to religion, the God of the religions, that is another matter.  My faith comes from my choice to look upon the Bible as a revelation of the nature of God, which is fulfilled in the New Testament.  Anthony Flew, for instances, remained a diest till the day he died, and did not believe in an afterlife, did not want one, as a matter of fact.   It was his study of DNA that brought him to the understanding that there had to be intelligence behind the Universe.

Peace
Mark

Why do you need validation through Flew? And why do you think others care about his personal decisions? 

You said your tired of people saying that there is no evidence to support theism. Have you ever considered that may well be the case or are you convinced that evidence is out there, you just have to find it? 

[XenoFish]

16 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Have you ever considered that may well be the case or are you convinced that evidence is out there, you just have to find it? 

That's counter intuitive to having faith though. Which is why those who seek validation for their belief in god have no faith in god.

[psyche101]

10 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

That's counter intuitive to having faith though. Which is why those who seek validation for their belief in god have no faith in god.

That would be my assumption too, but when Mark said he is tired of others pointing out that there is no evidence, one has to wonder what his benchmark fir evidence is. I'm certainly not seeing science in that video, just appeals to authority and God of the gaps arguments. I'm not sure why anyone sees those opinions as evidence. 

[XenoFish]

6 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

That would be my assumption too, but when Mark said he is tired of others pointing out that there is no evidence, one has to wonder what his benchmark fir evidence is. I'm certainly not seeing science in that video, just appeals to authority and God of the gaps arguments. I'm not sure why anyone sees those opinions as evidence. 

My own "test" for evidence was basically 'ask and you shall receive'. However this leads to nothing more than confirmation bias. The problem is that there is no objective idea of what god is or could even be. My thinking (personal opinion) is that if there is a 'god' is will not match anything humanity could come up with. Too often we get the "god did it" excuse, which is why I created the infinite question. What created god and what created the thing that create god, what created that? (ad infinitum).  I still chalk religion and spirituality into the psychology bin which is a soft science. Not hard science like quantum physics etc. We have to consider a infinite or near infinite causal chain of events when considering some creator.

Edited November 22, 2018 by XenoFish

[Minimalists]

11 hours ago, Will Due said:

 

Faith doesn't mean believing without proof. It means believing without seeing the proof. Which does not mean the proof of faith isn't real. And that's because the personal experiences of faith proves it.

 

 

Whats that Ben Franklin once said: "To see by faith is too shut the eye of reason."

[danydandan]

38 minutes ago, Scudbuster said:

 Religion or Science? They are 2 very distinct and highly different pathways:

I take exception to that. Jesuits, those of whom I know and have the utmost respect for are quite exceptional. 

There seems to be a rather different way of doing things in Europe and the US. Everyone seems to be turned to 11 in the US. 

[XenoFish]

13 minutes ago, danydandan said:

Everyone seems to be turned to 11 in the US. 

I wouldn't say everyone. But I will admit that everything seems to be chaotic all the time. Feels like a lot of people are trying to drive the car but no one knows how to read a map. It seems like a lot more people are on edge, and it's feels like it's getting worse. Maybe we're tired of things, perhaps no one has a right or good direction to creating a real constructive change and the only course is chaos and destruction. I don't know. 

 

[markdohle]

I do not think that there is a war going on between science and religion.  There is one, perhaps, between black and white thinkers on both sides of the argument.  No, I do not think that one can prove that 'God' exists any more than one can prove otherwise.  It is not under the umbrella of scientific studies to do that.  However, I do believe that science can be used to bolster both sides of the argument.  So, why did I post the video? Well, because the universe screams out intelligence, order, elegance, along with the many horrors, that are also present that are known by anyone who takes the time to notice.  I have a feeling that both are needed, or inevitable, in a universe that is finite, ages, and dies.  Though who knows, in a few years they may find out differently. 

Anthony Flew, was the most highly respected proponent of atheism in the 20th century, by both believers as well as atheists.  When he studied the properties of DNA, it led him to see an underlying intelligence at work.  Others would not be moved to come to the same conclusion.  

I do believe that organized religion will continue to become smaller, which may not be a bad thing.  Political power is the sure road to corruption I believe, as is shown in the crisis now in my church.  Many will leave.  I will not.   My faith, my beliefs are not predicated on the actions or failures of others.   I am glad that the church is being brought into the limelight, and sued, for what they allowed to happen, covered up, needs to be punished....loss of money is the best way. 

Peace
Mark

[danydandan]

34 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I wouldn't say everyone. But I will admit that everything seems to be chaotic all the time. Feels like a lot of people are trying to drive the car but no one knows how to read a map. It seems like a lot more people are on edge, and it's feels like it's getting worse. Maybe we're tired of things, perhaps no one has a right or good direction to creating a real constructive change and the only course is chaos and destruction. I don't know. 

 

There just seems to be very polar opposites.

There does not seem to be a middle ground, that is based on news we get here. 

Like everything, even this threads topic, is an Americanism. It appears your either a proponent of science, or you're a proponent of Theism. Heaven forbid your a scientifically minded individual who happens to go the church, or a mosque or a synagogue on the weekend. 

[XenoFish]

6 minutes ago, danydandan said:

There just seems to be very polar opposites.

There does not seem to be a middle ground, that is based on news we get here. 

Like everything, even this threads topic, is an Americanism. It appears your either a proponent of science, or you're a proponent of Theism. Heaven forbid your a scientifically minded individual who happens to go the church, or a mosque or a synagogue on the weekend. 

True. One extreme or the other. For myself it's not someone having faith in god or a higher power, their prayers, etc. It's the same absolute certainty that many seem to abide by. GOD EXIST!!!! are so they will say. I can see the psychological benefit of belief. It's easy. But I can not see the objective benefit outside of maybe being social. Other than that. I don't know anymore. I've struggled with my current mindset and past mindset for a few years now. My past mentality afforded me some comfort in a bit of magical thinking, which would right now put me on the grill of critics. The skeptics would have a field day with me. I have no problem entertaining ideas, the what if and maybe's. Sometimes that's fun. Even back when I was a full blown occultist I used "Cast my will and walk my path" as a primary motivator. Now I feel I have to be either for or against. There are times when I want to tell both side to politely shut up.

[XenoFish]

To be blunt and possible rudely to the point. I have gotten tired of the closed minded preachers on both sides. Beliefs should be reevaluated frequently. Changed when necessary, and never taken serious at all. Ever. The fact that I still use intention-manifestation makes me a target for critics, the fact that I can support my use of it through studies protects me. It is not so much as saying "I believe" it's saying I believe because.....

That beliefs cause someone to do good or ill. Whatever belief you may have it all comes down to the functionality of it. As it is say that "belief without works is nothing." Faith without action is meaningless. If whatever you hold onto spiritual doesn't make you a better person discard it. If you hold no spiritual faith and it doesn't make you a better person, find something that will. 

I might be alone on all this, perhaps my age is starting to show. I'm just tired of this. I personally think a life philosophy is a better path, but that's just me. No one has to follow it. I'm tired. 

[danydandan]

16 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

To be blunt and possible rudely to the point. I have gotten tired of the closed minded preachers on both sides. Beliefs should be reevaluated frequently. Changed when necessary, and never taken serious at all. Ever. The fact that I still use intention-manifestation makes me a target for critics, the fact that I can support my use of it through studies protects me. It is not so much as saying "I believe" it's saying I believe because.....

That beliefs cause someone to do good or ill. Whatever belief you may have it all comes down to the functionality of it. As it is say that "belief without works is nothing." Faith without action is meaningless. If whatever you hold onto spiritual doesn't make you a better person discard it. If you hold no spiritual faith and it doesn't make you a better person, find something that will. 

I might be alone on all this, perhaps my age is starting to show. I'm just tired of this. I personally think a life philosophy is a better path, but that's just me. No one has to follow it. I'm tired. 

I couldn't agree more with you. 

I feel exactly the same way, I've grown weary of the closed minded clowns on both sides. O especially dislike the scientifically sided individual preaching to the choir about stuff they literally haven't an Earthly notion about. I see people championing science by saying how create quantim mechanics is but if I asked them to explain a Feynman Diagram they'd look at me as if I had three heads. 

You should read some Bruce Lee philosophical books if you can, you'd be very interested in how he viewed the word. It isn't the most complex or complicated philosophical point of view, but man it's good.

18 minutes ago, Scudbuster said:

Hey Dan, I for one, really don't care who goes to what church or how often they go. To me it's all about live and let live - but I'll let my true thoughts be known here - and with a few close friends and relatives. 

 My wife is an ardent Christian, but we never talk about religion or anything of that nature. And my friends who are agnostic/atheist - they never, ever, would oppose someone for going to a church.  

I agree with you also. 

But I have to say there must be a separation between Religion and School, and State and Science.

[+joc]

40 minutes ago, danydandan said:

You should read some Bruce Lee philosophical books if you can, you'd be very interested in how he viewed the word. It isn't the most complex or complicated philosophical point of view, but man it's good.

 

[danydandan]

47 minutes ago, Scudbuster said:

Yes, you bet Danny, that's why the rise of church infused politics here in the US over the past 20 years or so is so disconcerting to me....

Yes it's very scary. These types do fit into a stereotype pro-life, anti-vaxers, pedophiles etcetca.

[Avinash Suresh]

17 hours ago, sci-nerd said:

If there is, it is not God. I would bet my life on it!

If there is intelligent design in all this, it is because we are living inside a computer, made by advanced people.

The problem comes with the conception of God. God for me, is the source of the universe. It is the fabric that binds all that is together. God is not, some human-like figure in the heavens waving his wand for Good and Evil, as most religions might get you to think. God has no gender. He is no human. Yet, he is within all. God is Light. Not just any light, but that light through which everything manifested.

Now if you don't like this, that's absolutely fine.

But if you are interested, start by reading Kingdom of God is within you by Leo Tolstoy. Also, research the children of the law of one.

It is important to experience things to learn. 

Instead of saying only Science is right or only God is right, why can't they both be right? I've found that both paths lead to the same principle of Oneness.

[Guyver]

I think Bruce Lee was the best.  Great find Joc.

[danydandan]

10 minutes ago, Guyver said:

I think Bruce Lee was the best.  Great find Joc.

Philosophically he was very interesting. His responses to racism are fantastic. 

"Under the sky, under the heavens, there is but one family."

"In the long history of martial arts, the instinct to follow and imitate seems to be inherent in most martial artists, instructors and students alike.”

"Each man, belongs to a style which claims to possess truth to the exclusion of all other styles. These styles become institutes with their explanations of the "Way,” dissecting and isolating the harmony and firmness and gentleness, establishing rhythmic forms as the particular state of their techniques.” The consequence, are as to bypass the purpose of martial arts and create "flowery forms” and "artificial techniques” that become "ritualistically practiced." 

Basically don't hold too close to one side or the other. The man was a genius

Edited November 22, 2018 by danydandan

[StarMountainKid]

I posted in another topic asking what are the odds of intelligent life evolving on the Earth. In other words, how finely tuned must all of the parameters be for Humans to have evolved. 

It seems to me these parameters have been random events in the history of our planet. 

If some God had ordained intelligent life to exist on the Earth, this God would have had to manipulate all these random events throughout Earth's history to culminate with Humans. 

Wouldn't it have been more efficient for this God just to produce Human life by some simpler creative method? Like just saying "poof", here they are? 

Why create these complex, improbable circumstances to end up with us? 

[danydandan]

5 minutes ago, StarMountainKid said:

I posted in another topic asking what are the odds of intelligent life evolving on the Earth. In other words, how finely tuned must all of the parameters be for Humans to have evolved. 

It seems to me these parameters have been random events in the history of our planet. 

If some God had ordained intelligent life to exist on the Earth, this God would have had to manipulate all these random events throughout Earth's history to culminate with Humans. 

Wouldn't it have been more efficient for this God just to produce Human life by some simpler creative method? Like just saying "poof", here they are? 

Why create these complex, improbable circumstances to end up with us? 

Maybe it's only complex to us? 

 

[XenoFish]

9 minutes ago, StarMountainKid said:

Why create these complex, improbable circumstances to end up with us? 

Maybe we're not the only ones. Perhaps the whole universe is like a random number generator who's sole purpose is to see what pops up. I don't know. I don't think anyone knows.