danydandan Posted December 15, 2018 #776 Share Posted December 15, 2018 (edited) @Jodie.Lynne and @psyche101 I don't know if either of you have been to Thailand. But Monks in Thailand get fed, roofs over their heads and some resemblance of respect just for becoming monks. So even if these monks are only using this avenue as an escape from poverty, can we still ascribe their material gains to spirituality? Same can be said for priests in Ireland and Europe in the early to middle first century AD. Or in other words, unbeknownst to these people, even they were just pursuing their paths primarily on spiritual grounds, they made significant material gains because of their spirituality. Edited December 15, 2018 by danydandan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eight bits Posted December 15, 2018 #777 Share Posted December 15, 2018 There is some irony that our OP makes his material way in the world as a baker and retreat manager (if I understand his posts over the years). These are productive activities which earn his community the resources they consume, based on voluntary exchange with the surrounding ecoomy. Putting aisde that there may be some spiritual benefit in being a producer (or, in other monastic orders, a mendicant, or whatever), the situation of the monk or nun is not necessarily exploitative of the surrounding non-religious. Even thinking historically and personally, I feel the heaviness of my debt to those monks of the past (many of them Irish) who preserved so much of what survives of the ancient literature. That was a prodcutive thing for them to do. I tread lightly here. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jodie.Lynne Posted December 15, 2018 #778 Share Posted December 15, 2018 5 hours ago, danydandan said: @Jodie.Lynne and @psyche101 I don't know if either of you have been to Thailand. But Monks in Thailand get fed, roofs over their heads and some resemblance of respect just for becoming monks. So even if these monks are only using this avenue as an escape from poverty, can we still ascribe their material gains to spirituality? Same can be said for priests in Ireland and Europe in the early to middle first century AD. Or in other words, unbeknownst to these people, even they were just pursuing their paths primarily on spiritual grounds, they made significant material gains because of their spirituality. We may be talking across each other. Yes, Yes, even in many parts of Asia and India today, monks and holy men are treated with charity and benevolence, but I think that has more to do with the culture and the belief that holy men have the ear of god. There are even anecdotal tales of raging battles coming to a halt to allow monks and druids (Celtic holy men) to cross the field of battle. In ancient Ireland, it was considered unwise to deny a Druid food and shelter. I cannot remember if it was demanded by Brehon Law. And, by extension, 1st century priests would be honored the same way, since you don't want to p*** off god. But, if you are the average believer, with a family and obligations, all your (general usage pronoun, not you Dan personally) personal spiritual beliefs won't materialize a pot roast on the sideboard to feed your you and your family. The actions of other believers may provide food & shelter because they feel it is their obligation to do charitable acts unless Dan, you are suggested that an individuals piety somehow cause others to be charitable. And if that were the case, then only religious/spiritual people would ever receive aid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psyche101 Posted December 17, 2018 #779 Share Posted December 17, 2018 On 12/15/2018 at 4:41 PM, danydandan said: @Jodie.Lynne and @psyche101 I don't know if either of you have been to Thailand. But Monks in Thailand get fed, roofs over their heads and some resemblance of respect just for becoming monks. So even if these monks are only using this avenue as an escape from poverty, can we still ascribe their material gains to spirituality? Same can be said for priests in Ireland and Europe in the early to middle first century AD. Or in other words, unbeknownst to these people, even they were just pursuing their paths primarily on spiritual grounds, they made significant material gains because of their spirituality. Would you consider that any different to a drug smuggler who sees the wisdom of Allah and converts to Muslim when the captors are Muslim and give reverence to religious orientated outcomes? In order to lighten the sentence? Just a scam isn't it? Its not even the same as early scholars coming from religious institutions such as the oft mentioned Georges Lemaître. It's not like he had a choice of schools to attend. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted December 17, 2018 #780 Share Posted December 17, 2018 I'm thinking symbiotic relationship rather than benefits of spirituality. Monks may do a lot of good for others...in the name of spirituality...and in doing so, take a vow of poverty...which only really means that they are doing what they do with no profit motive in mind. But the reality is still that Land is owned by someone, even if the monks purchased the land...they have acquired property and can one with property be said to be in poverty? If someone else owns the land, and is feeding them, is that really poverty. But what if the monks work the land and grow their own food and are self sustained? If the land is given, or if it is owned...does not someone demand taxes? My point is that as long as other entities are involved in anything 'spiritual', it cannot really be said to be totally spiritual, because there is benefit for someone besides the monks and the one's they help. Somewhere, somehow, it ends up in someone profiting other than those who are helped. In that regard, monks and Volunteer Charity Non-profit groups are made equal. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHaYap Posted December 17, 2018 #781 Share Posted December 17, 2018 1 hour ago, joc said: Somewhere, somehow, it ends up in someone profiting other than those who are helped. Time for a revisit of the One true Bob ... Quote ~ [00.06:31] ~ 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHaYap Posted December 17, 2018 #782 Share Posted December 17, 2018 And on another note, in the spirit of the Festive Merry Cheer of the Season ... ~ Quote Christmas truce - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_truce The Christmas truce (German: Weihnachtsfrieden; French: Trêve de Noël) was a series of widespread but unofficial ceasefires along the Western Front of World War I around Christmas 1914. The Christmas truce occurred during the relatively early period of the war (month 5 of 51). Fraternisation · Christmas 1914 · Later truces · Legacy and historical ... ~ [00.01:03] ~ 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Duck Posted December 17, 2018 #783 Share Posted December 17, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, third_eye said: And on another note, in the spirit of the Festive Merry Cheer of the Season ... ~ Watching a video of people playing soccer titled The Greater Game - I was expecting to see someone pick up the ball and run with it. Edited December 17, 2018 by Golden Duck 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guyver Posted December 18, 2018 #784 Share Posted December 18, 2018 Greetings. I had a lucid dream last night. I could try to find the lucid dream thread, but....eh. Anyway, some people think dreams are of God....so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danydandan Posted December 18, 2018 #785 Share Posted December 18, 2018 Greetings, I hadn't a lucid dream. In fact I can't recall my dream. I was no going to mention it, but apparently detailing our sleep details is what we do now! Anyway, some people think not have lucid dreams is Science.....so... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted December 18, 2018 #786 Share Posted December 18, 2018 5 hours ago, danydandan said: Greetings, I hadn't a lucid dream. In fact I can't recall my dream. I was no going to mention it, but apparently detailing our sleep details is what we do now! Anyway, some people think not have lucid dreams is Science.....so... The Old Testament speaks of Daniel...who was very good at interpreting dreams...unfortunately, all of his interpretations were believed to have been..Given to him by God. The idea of God sticking his little God fingers in everyone's pies including our dreams is quite ridiculous. ....so.... Let's revisit the original conceptual question of the OP which was...just to refresh our memories...Does Science argue for or against God? The answer is that Science does neither. Science helps us in our struggle to know the actual truth of a thing. It is the knowledge of the actual truth of things that become the argument against God. All of the evidence of the knowledge we have argues explicitly against the archaic ideas of ancient men and women. The Science of Dreams not withstanding. 10 hours ago, Guyver said: Greetings. I had a lucid dream last night. I could try to find the lucid dream thread, but....eh. Anyway, some people think dreams are of God....so... Some people also think aliens live inside the moon. A Lucid dream btw is nothing more than a dream where the dreamer is experiencing deep REM. It's not amazing...it's not telling of anything other than one was not fully asleep. And also...btw...mentioning the word God in a thread about Science and God...with an off cuff comment about some stupid dream you may or may not have is what exactly...other than an attempt to derail a thread that you have no appreciate for anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hammerclaw Posted December 19, 2018 #787 Share Posted December 19, 2018 Once you introduce God into a thread, anything is fair game, including dreams. "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit on all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions. Joel 2:28 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suprnova Posted December 21, 2018 #788 Share Posted December 21, 2018 I lean heavily, almost lopsided towards scientific facts, but i am always open minded to things i do not understand, if something is scientifically proven to not exist and 'can't exist' then i tend to believe that, if there is ever a grey area, i stay maybe not open minded, but 'willing to listen' if that makes sense. The only things that can be proven by science are within the boundaries of human understanding, which is enough for me, but i won't rule out there is things that exist outside of our understanding. I'm not religious at all, but i'm not anti-religion. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psyche101 Posted December 28, 2018 #789 Share Posted December 28, 2018 On 12/22/2018 at 1:52 AM, GS1981 said: I lean heavily, almost lopsided towards scientific facts, but i am always open minded to things i do not understand, if something is scientifically proven to not exist and 'can't exist' then i tend to believe that, if there is ever a grey area, i stay maybe not open minded, but 'willing to listen' if that makes sense. The only things that can be proven by science are within the boundaries of human understanding, which is enough for me, but i won't rule out there is things that exist outside of our understanding. I'm not religious at all, but i'm not anti-religion. Not knowing is one thing, but I don't see how guessing and making stuff up helps anyone with anything. It just convolutes the process of learning. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suprnova Posted December 29, 2018 #790 Share Posted December 29, 2018 8 hours ago, psyche101 said: Not knowing is one thing, but I don't see how guessing and making stuff up helps anyone with anything. It just convolutes the process of learning. Which is exactly the issue with religion in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jodie.Lynne Posted January 1, 2019 #791 Share Posted January 1, 2019 On 12/28/2018 at 11:05 AM, psyche101 said: Not knowing is one thing, but I don't see how guessing and making stuff up helps anyone with anything. It just convolutes the process of learning. Sadly, there are far too many people who think "I don't know" somehow equals god, in my view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenWolf Posted January 2, 2019 #792 Share Posted January 2, 2019 On 12/19/2018 at 10:30 AM, Hammerclaw said: Once you introduce God into a thread, anything is fair game, including dreams. "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit on all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions. Joel 2:28 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horta Posted January 2, 2019 #793 Share Posted January 2, 2019 On 11/22/2018 at 8:57 AM, markdohle said: Ah these people love their fine tuning fallacies. Reminds me of Douglas Adams puddle. It's obvious that the odds of a galaxy/solar system/planet appearing exactly as it is with us on it, are precisely 1/1. A 100% certainty as it turns out. Look around, there is quite a bit of evidence to support that, don't you think? The SETI claims overlooks what a vast place our galaxy is, let alone the universe. SETI itself is a worthwhile project, but not worth inferring too much from. Then again, why would life elsewhere in the universe be like us anyway? Why would it be carbon based? What makes us think they would use the same types of em radiation based communication, or possess the same type of logic or supposed intelligence that the brains that one particular subspecies of chimp on one little spec of dust do? They might be incomprehensible to us, they might be undetectable to our limited senses? If they ever were biologically similar and techno advanced it's close to certainty that they have long ago given up on being biological and having to rely on the vagaries of biological evolution anyway (IMO). We are likely to enter that same process within this century. If we can infer anything from what we know of our universe so far, it would be that the biosphere on this planet seems like a fascinating (to us) but somewhat purposeless epiphenomena. Anyone who looks into the life cycles of the critters that exist in nature would be very unlikely to think it designed. Nature is not only harsh, but quite often horrific. If it was designed this way, the designer was obviously a demented lunatic. There is no objective logic that leads to god, there is no direct scientific evidence that indicates the existence of a god. The only way science and religion are relevant to each other is that so far science has disproved every testable claim ever made about god. It's a fact that the gods of popular religious myth don't exist, the same way fairies don't really exist. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarMountainKid Posted January 2, 2019 #794 Share Posted January 2, 2019 Evidently, life evolving on a planet orbiting a star is possible, and I would submit, independent of any premeditation. In other words, this is a naturally occurring phenomenon. Life on Earth is proof of this event. So, I see no need for Gods. The question then is, why Existence at all? It would seem more efficient for Nothing to exist. When we create models of Existence, we use Existence itself as the basis of these models. We assume Something exists, then extrapolate this Existence as the creation of the Universe. "The universe from nothing" is still the universe from something. Perhaps "why something" is the wrong question. We are "something", so of course we begin with the assumption that our concept of "something", our concept of Existence, is relevant to the question. Perhaps Existence itself, our concept of it, is irrelevant to the question. This is natural, as we are part of this Existence. Maybe we are incapable of conceptualizing what is really going on, so to say. We're trapped in this line of thinking and questioning. I'm saying perhaps there is Something Else that we are incapable of contemplating, that is the source of this Existence we experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
029b10 Posted January 2, 2019 #795 Share Posted January 2, 2019 On 12/19/2018 at 11:30 AM, Hammerclaw said: And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit on all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions. Joel 2:28 I guess that is why those who walk in the 'day' stumble not because they see the light of the world while those who walk in the 'night' stumble because there is no spirit in them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hammerclaw Posted January 2, 2019 #796 Share Posted January 2, 2019 29 minutes ago, 029b10 said: I guess that is why those who walk in the 'day' stumble not because they see the light of the world while those who walk in the 'night' stumble because there is no spirit in them. Sounds like a shallow puddle, trying to be deep. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Pettytalk Posted January 3, 2019 #797 Share Posted January 3, 2019 20 hours ago, Hammerclaw said: Sounds like a shallow puddle, trying to be deep. Sound more like someone is been drinking, if the stumble. Then Peter stood up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and addressed the crowd: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and listen carefully to my words. 15These men are not drunk as you suppose. It is only the third hour of the day! 16No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
029b10 Posted January 3, 2019 #798 Share Posted January 3, 2019 (edited) Or maybe the shallow being shallow They grope in the dark without light, and he maketh them to stagger like a drunken man. Job 12:25 Edited January 3, 2019 by 029b10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenWolf Posted January 3, 2019 #799 Share Posted January 3, 2019 18 hours ago, 029b10 said: Or maybe the shallow being shallow They grope in the dark without light, and he maketh them to stagger like a drunken man. Job 12:25 Not everybody defines "light and dark" the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
029b10 Posted January 4, 2019 #800 Share Posted January 4, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, GoldenWolf said: Not everybody defines "light and dark" the same. Good point, the term darkness may not imply the same thing as does the term dark did. Likewise the term dark might not infer the term darkness. Darkness might signify the presence of the electromagnetic band wherein its spectrum is the visible white light. Edited January 4, 2019 by 029b10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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