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markdohle

God and science

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XenoFish

Spirituality is emotional. It deals with feelings and is psychological. Basically neurochemical in nature. 

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danydandan
On 12/12/2018 at 11:52 AM, psyche101 said:

Spirituality doesn't put food on the table or a roof over your head or put your kids through school. You're being unrealistic. 

This isn't necessarily true. I know of loads of conmen/women who use spirituality to make themselves incredibly rich. 

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psyche101
12 hours ago, danydandan said:

This isn't necessarily true. I know of loads of conmen/women who use spirituality to make themselves incredibly rich. 

True but not in the context to the post I replied to. I took his meaning as some sort of spiritual food that we need. Something technology shields us from. It's no good to the average person in that respect. Only so many con men to herd the believers before it would become unsustainable. 

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Jodie.Lynne
13 hours ago, danydandan said:

This isn't necessarily true. I know of loads of conmen/women who use spirituality to make themselves incredibly rich. 

True, but are they really "spiritual", whatever that means, or are they just preying on the fearful, the desperate, and the gullible?

I agree with Psyche: Being religious or spiritual doesn't provide material benefits such as food, housing, or clothing. It may provide some mental or emotional comfort, but it doesn't keep you warm when you are sleeping rough.

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danydandan

@Jodie.Lynne and @psyche101 I don't know if either of you have been to Thailand. But Monks in Thailand get fed, roofs over their heads and some resemblance of respect just for becoming monks. So even if these monks are only using this avenue as an escape from poverty, can we still ascribe their material gains to spirituality? 

Same can be said for priests in Ireland and Europe in the early to middle first century AD. 

Or in other words, unbeknownst to these people, even they were just pursuing their paths primarily on spiritual grounds, they made significant material gains because of their spirituality.

Edited by danydandan
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eight bits

There is some irony that our OP makes his material way in the world as a baker and retreat manager (if I understand his posts over the years). These are productive activities which earn his community the resources they consume, based on voluntary exchange with the surrounding ecoomy.

Putting aisde that there may be some spiritual benefit in being a producer (or, in other monastic orders, a mendicant, or whatever), the situation of the monk or nun is not necessarily exploitative of the surrounding non-religious.

Even thinking historically and personally, I feel the heaviness of my debt to those monks of the past (many of them Irish) who preserved so much of what survives of the ancient literature. That was a prodcutive thing for them to do.

I tread lightly here.

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Jodie.Lynne
5 hours ago, danydandan said:

@Jodie.Lynne and @psyche101 I don't know if either of you have been to Thailand. But Monks in Thailand get fed, roofs over their heads and some resemblance of respect just for becoming monks. So even if these monks are only using this avenue as an escape from poverty, can we still ascribe their material gains to spirituality? 

Same can be said for priests in Ireland and Europe in the early to middle first century AD. 

Or in other words, unbeknownst to these people, even they were just pursuing their paths primarily on spiritual grounds, they made significant material gains because of their spirituality.

We may be talking across each other. Yes, Yes, even in many parts of Asia and India today, monks and holy men are treated with charity and benevolence, but I think that has more to do with the culture and the belief that holy men have the ear of god. There are even anecdotal tales of raging battles coming to a halt to allow monks and druids (Celtic holy men) to cross the field of battle. In ancient Ireland, it was considered unwise to deny a Druid food and shelter. I cannot remember if it was demanded by Brehon Law. And, by extension, 1st century priests would be honored the same way, since you don't want to p*** off god.

 

But, if you are the average believer, with a family and obligations, all your (general usage pronoun, not you Dan personally) personal spiritual beliefs won't materialize a pot roast on the sideboard to feed your you and your family. The actions of other believers may provide food & shelter because they feel it is their obligation to do charitable acts unless Dan, you are suggested that an individuals piety somehow cause others to be charitable. And if that were the case, then only religious/spiritual people would ever receive aid.

 

 

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psyche101
On 12/15/2018 at 4:41 PM, danydandan said:

@Jodie.Lynne and @psyche101 I don't know if either of you have been to Thailand. But Monks in Thailand get fed, roofs over their heads and some resemblance of respect just for becoming monks. So even if these monks are only using this avenue as an escape from poverty, can we still ascribe their material gains to spirituality? 

Same can be said for priests in Ireland and Europe in the early to middle first century AD. 

Or in other words, unbeknownst to these people, even they were just pursuing their paths primarily on spiritual grounds, they made significant material gains because of their spirituality.

Would you consider that any different to a drug smuggler who sees the wisdom of Allah and converts to Muslim when the captors are Muslim and give reverence to religious orientated outcomes? In order to lighten the sentence? 

Just a scam isn't it? 

Its not even the same as early scholars coming from religious institutions such as the oft mentioned Georges Lemaître. It's not like he had a choice of schools to attend. 

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joc

I'm thinking symbiotic relationship rather than benefits of spirituality.  Monks may do a lot of good for others...in the name of spirituality...and in doing so, take a vow of poverty...which only really means that they are doing what they do with no profit motive in mind.  But the reality is still that Land is owned by someone, even if the monks purchased the land...they have acquired property and can one with property be said to be in poverty?  If someone else owns the land, and is feeding them, is that really poverty.  But what if the monks work the land and grow their own food and are self sustained?  If the land is given, or if it is owned...does not someone demand taxes?  My point is that as long as other entities are involved in anything 'spiritual', it cannot really be said to be totally spiritual, because there is benefit for someone besides the monks and the one's they help.  Somewhere, somehow, it ends up in someone profiting other than those who are helped.  

In that regard, monks and Volunteer Charity Non-profit groups are made equal.   

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third_eye
1 hour ago, joc said:

Somewhere, somehow, it ends up in someone profiting other than those who are helped.  

Time for a revisit of the One true Bob ...

 

Quote

 

~

[00.06:31]

 

~


 

 

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third_eye

And on another note, in the spirit of the Festive Merry Cheer of the Season ...

~
 

Quote

 

 

The Christmas truce (German: Weihnachtsfrieden; French: Trêve de Noël) was a series of widespread but unofficial ceasefires along the Western Front of World War I around Christmas 1914. The Christmas truce occurred during the relatively early period of the war (month 5 of 51).

 

~

[00.01:03]

~

 

 

 

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Golden Duck
5 hours ago, third_eye said:

And on another note, in the spirit of the Festive Merry Cheer of the Season ...

~
 

 

Watching a video of people playing soccer titled The Greater Game - I was expecting to see someone pick up the ball and run with it.

Edited by Golden Duck
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Guyver

Greetings.  I had a lucid dream last night.  I could try to find the lucid dream thread, but....eh.  Anyway, some people think dreams are of God....so...

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danydandan

Greetings, I hadn't a lucid dream. In fact I can't recall my dream. I was no going to mention it, but apparently detailing our sleep details is what we do now!

Anyway, some people think not have lucid dreams is Science.....so...

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joc
5 hours ago, danydandan said:

Greetings, I hadn't a lucid dream. In fact I can't recall my dream. I was no going to mention it, but apparently detailing our sleep details is what we do now!

Anyway, some people think not have lucid dreams is Science.....so...

The Old Testament speaks of Daniel...who was very good at interpreting dreams...unfortunately, all of his interpretations were believed to have been..Given to him by God.  The idea of God sticking his little God fingers in everyone's pies including our dreams is quite ridiculous.  

....so....

Let's revisit the original conceptual question of the OP which was...just to refresh our memories...Does Science argue for or against God?  The answer is that Science does neither.  Science helps us in our struggle to know the actual truth of a thing.  It is the knowledge of the actual truth of things that become the argument against God.  All of the evidence of the knowledge we have argues explicitly against the archaic ideas of ancient men and women.

The Science of Dreams not withstanding.   

10 hours ago, Guyver said:

Greetings.  I had a lucid dream last night.  I could try to find the lucid dream thread, but....eh.  Anyway, some people think dreams are of God....so...

Some people also think aliens live inside the moon.   A Lucid dream btw is nothing more than a dream where the dreamer is experiencing deep  REM.  It's not amazing...it's not telling of anything other than one was not fully asleep.  And also...btw...mentioning the word God in a thread about Science and God...with an off cuff comment about some stupid dream you may or may not have is what exactly...other than an attempt to derail  a thread that you have no appreciate for anyway?

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