+OverSword Posted December 27, 2018 #176 Share Posted December 27, 2018 1 hour ago, Dejarma said: If you: 'certainly don't believe the US government has alien craft' then by default (& basic logic & common sense) he must be lying!! So why are you interested in Lazar then!? People ARE reading what you say but they are confused regarding what your trying to say! Think about it before moaning at others... Thanks The first part here is wrong. We do not know he is lying, we do not know the US government does not have alien craft. But it makes much more sense that it doesn’t, right? Maybe you aren’t aware, but before Lazar nobody had ever heard of Area 51. It’s only because of him and his story of reverse engineering alien craft that we ever heard of it. The government denied its existence for decades after Lazar too. Do you still believe that Area 51 exists? No, you know for a fact that it does. There are enough verifiable elements to Lazars story to keep me interested but not enough to cause me to change my mind towards my other beliefs about aliens or other intelligent life. I am however prepared to admit that anything I believe no matter how logically arrived at may be completely untrue and am waiting to be proved wrong. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trelane Posted December 27, 2018 #177 Share Posted December 27, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, OverSword said: Yeah, that’s why I didn’t say he had this clearance, I said it’s claimed. Read carefully please, and don’t condescend to me, at no time do I say Bob Lazar worked on Alien craft at Area 51. But I will say one thing, back when Lazar outed Area 51 and it’s associated sub-sites nobody had ever heard of it and factually the government denied its existence for decades after he first exposed its existence through his testimony. He did work there which has been proven through his pay records. He does not do the UFO conferences or publish books or do interviews and make tons of money (until now decades after the fact) like he could have been doing the entire time. And believe it, he really could have raked it in brother. How much would Ancient Aliens have paid him for an exclusive interview? All this stuff intrigues me and makes me interested in what kind of truth if any may be behind his story. I certainly don’t believe the US government has alien craft or that there is any proof that intelligent life necessarily even exists on other worlds, which can easily be verified by years of my posts on various threads here. Please stop talking to my like I’m an idiot just because you yourself have no desire to hear people out or consider other points of view without putting up a real argument. If I may, the pay stub which Lazar has produced as proof had been debunked a long time ago. The SSN on it has been linked to woman from NYC by researchers. The wages claimed are also very meager for a physicist contracted to work for the government even by late '80's standards. Additionally, there is nothing on it that states he had worked at the Groom Lake site. As previously stated though it was found to be a fraud document. The fact that he hasn't tried cashing in on this is not entirely correct. he has and failed. Now years later he's at it again trying to ride the wave of rubbish that the Ancient Aliens crowd is peddling. The Groom Lake test site was known but only to select personnel as it had been intended. The title of Area 51 was/is not an official name as it refers to the old nuclear test boundaries of the range as used in the 40's and 50's. Lazar rattled it off like some kind of James Bond-esque proper title and was like everything else he had reported incorrect or outright lying. If you choose to still believe him, good on to you. I respectfully disagree with anything that attempts to argue on that fraud's behalf. Edited December 27, 2018 by Trelane 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dejarma Posted December 27, 2018 #178 Share Posted December 27, 2018 @OverSword These are your words- I'll repeat: Quote I certainly don't believe the US government has alien craft & in the next breath you say this: Quote The first part here is wrong. We do not know he is lying, we do not know the US government does not have alien craft. But it makes much more sense that it doesn't, right? Oh you're not so certain then? Make ya mind up mate... Another example: Quote Please stop talking to my like Im an idiot just because you yourself have no desire to hear people out or consider other points of view without putting up a real argument. What point of view are you putting forward you feel should be considered??? Something like = Lazar might not be lying & he may well have worked on an alien craft? == something that (according to you) certainly does not exist!? Those you're moaning at ARE CERTAIN that Lazar is full of BS.. Including me.. No surprise there A few good examples IMHO of what I mean about confusing & you wonder why you get the responses you're moaning about. You're not the only one who acts like this in here! So no worries- you carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dejarma Posted December 27, 2018 #179 Share Posted December 27, 2018 2 minutes ago, Trelane said: If I may, the pay stub which lazar has produced as proof had been debunked a long time ago yep, not proof for some though still, no worries 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+OverSword Posted December 27, 2018 #180 Share Posted December 27, 2018 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Trelane said: If I may, the pay stub which Lazar has produced as proof had been debunked a long time ago. The SSN on it has been linked to woman from NYC by researchers. The wages claimed are also very meager for a physicist contracted to work for the government even by late '80's standards. Additionally, there is nothing on it that states he had worked at the Groom Lake site. As previously stated though it was found to be a fraud document. The fact that he hasn't tried cashing in on this is not entirely correct. he has and failed. Now years later he's at it again trying to ride the wave of rubbish that the Ancient Aliens crowd is peddling. The Groom Lake test site was known but only to select personnel as it had been intended. The title of Area 51 was/is not an official name as it refers to the old nuclear test boundaries of the range as used in the 40's and 50's. Lazar rattled it off like some kind of James Bond-esque proper title and was like everything else he had reported incorrect or outright lying. If you choose to still believe him, good on to you. I respectfully disagree with anything that attempts to argue on that fraud's behalf. Proof? It’s very easy to say “debunked long ago” a link to actual investigation and evidence brought about by said investigation is helpful. Read above where someone claimed that Q security clearance did not exist. As it turns out it does. And when did he try cashing in and failed? Books? Movies? Selling autographs at UFO conventions? I looked for such a thing when this thread first started but found nothing. Why would I believe you or bob without proof? Edited December 27, 2018 by OverSword Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+OverSword Posted December 27, 2018 #181 Share Posted December 27, 2018 25 minutes ago, Dejarma said: @OverSword These are your words- I'll repeat: & in the next breath you say this: Oh you're not so certain then? Make ya mind up mate... Another example: What point of view are you putting forward you feel should be considered??? Something like = Lazar might not be lying & he may well have worked on an alien craft? == something that (according to you) certainly does not exist!? Those you're moaning at ARE CERTAIN that Lazar is full of BS.. Including me.. No surprise there A few good examples IMHO of what I mean about confusing & you wonder why you get the responses you're moaning about. You're not the only one who acts like this in here! So no worries- you carry on. To the beginning of your post, my beliefs are not evidence of the truth or lies of Bob Lazar. to the second part my point is not what I’m putting forward that you are not open to it’s my openness to what others say or believe and how if I don’t agree with them I try to explain why and not just dismiss them like as ignorant or delusional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dejarma Posted December 27, 2018 #182 Share Posted December 27, 2018 15 minutes ago, OverSword said: To the beginning of your post, my beliefs are not evidence of the truth or lies of Bob Lazar. to the second part my point is not what I’m putting forward that you are not open to it’s my openness to what others say or believe and how if I don’t agree with them I try to explain why and not just dismiss them like as ignorant or delusional. fair enough 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trelane Posted December 27, 2018 #183 Share Posted December 27, 2018 55 minutes ago, OverSword said: Proof? It’s very easy to say “debunked long ago” a link to actual investigation and evidence brought about by said investigation is helpful. Read above where someone claimed that Q security clearance did not exist. As it turns out it does. And when did he try cashing in and failed? Books? Movies? Selling autographs at UFO conventions? I looked for such a thing when this thread first started but found nothing. Why would I believe you or bob without proof? I'm sorry, I don't play the fetch game. There are dozens of sites you can search for as I have that go into detail the pay stub fraud issue. You can find the information and make your own informed conclusions. He had been paid by television producers (not just the Knapp interview) to appear in the late 80's before his lies were unravelled. One was a two hour long show covering his tale and also the Rendelsham Forest event story. This program aired in late1989. If he had any type of security clearance and also violated a signed NDA he would've been fined and put in jail. This didn't happen, so it stands to reason he was simply making stuff up. Either way, i'm surprised people still want to believe his fantasy world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+OverSword Posted December 27, 2018 #184 Share Posted December 27, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Trelane said: I’m sorry, I don't play the fetch game. No you just make unsubstantiated claims. You say the stubs were debunked? Prove it. There is zero reason for me to prove your statement for you. You said it, back it up or you’re no better than people that say aliens visit us. Weak. Edited December 27, 2018 by OverSword Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dejarma Posted December 27, 2018 #185 Share Posted December 27, 2018 1 hour ago, OverSword said: No you just make unsubstantiated claims. You say the stubs were debunked? Prove it. There is zero reason for me to prove your statement for you. You said it, back it up or you’re no better than people that say aliens visit us. Weak. Like me= I doubt Trelane could be bothered to! It's all there if you want to see it.. we all know it.. we all get it.. the fact that you refuse to see it proves to me you believe it- just won't admit it.. I've come across many like your good self over the years in places like this: intelligent people's logic in conflict with a deep down strong fantasy.. You're confused & disorientated (your posts prove this to me 100%) it's a constant struggle for you- .. What you need to do is pretty much= <pick-a-side> & be done with it! You'll feel better= I did Just some advice.... I'm done. Have fun Peace. Dej... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stereologist Posted December 27, 2018 #186 Share Posted December 27, 2018 9 hours ago, OverSword said: You really should try looking things up before posting your opinion as fact. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._security_clearance_terms It’s a pretty easy thing to do. But without looking it up I’ll agree you are probably right about the janitors, but perhaps not on bases that the existence of is denied. Maybe you would like to research that and back your janitor claim up? Thanks. I was not aware that the DOE was using its own system. I am well aware of the standard levels plus the NATO clearance levels. I have worked at military bases that do not train or house large numbers of enlistees. Maintenance and janitorial services were contracted out. None of that staff has any form of clearance. The ceilings have flashing lights that are turned on when the staff enters a room for cleaning. All materials must be locked up. Screens are turned off. White boards are erased. Papers are placed in locked cabinets. All lockable containers must be locked. And so forth. If Lazar worked as a janitor he required no special clearance. He'd be carefully monitored and even in areas where the area is cleaned up. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+OverSword Posted December 27, 2018 #187 Share Posted December 27, 2018 15 minutes ago, Dejarma said: Like me= I doubt Trelane could be bothered to! It's all there if you want to see it.. we all know it.. we all get it.. the fact that you refuse to see it proves to me you believe it- just won't admit it.. I've come across many like your good self over the years in places like this: intelligent people's logic in conflict with a deep down strong fantasy.. You're confused & disorientated (your posts prove this to me 100%) it's a constant struggle for you- .. What you need to do is pretty much= <pick-a-side> & be done with it! You'll feel better= I did Just some advice.... I'm done. Have fun Peace. Dej... BS. People, even you I believe, ask me where I got a piece of information I posted, I tell them where, where to look or provide a link. This guy made several claims about this subject which I have not heard but refuses to make any effort to substantiate them. Nice try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dejarma Posted December 27, 2018 #188 Share Posted December 27, 2018 21 minutes ago, stereologist said: Thanks. I was not aware that the DOE was using its own system. I am well aware of the standard levels plus the NATO clearance levels. I have worked at military bases that do not train or house large numbers of enlistees. Maintenance and janitorial services were contracted out. None of that staff has any form of clearance. The ceilings have flashing lights that are turned on when the staff enters a room for cleaning. All materials must be locked up. Screens are turned off. White boards are erased. Papers are placed in locked cabinets. All lockable containers must be locked. And so forth. If Lazar worked as a janitor he required no special clearance. He'd be carefully monitored and even in areas where the area is cleaned up. So sometimes folk get small details wrong- it doesn't detract from the main theme which is: is Lazar full of BS? Even the top ufologists think he is- hence no money earned from his claims. Though I'm pretty sure he tried going by what I've read.. Can I prove this? Or more to the point: can I be bothered to!? ===== well it's all there if someone WANTS to find it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Duck Posted December 27, 2018 #189 Share Posted December 27, 2018 On 23/12/2018 at 11:04 PM, Nnicolette said: ... Are you even aware of what anti-gravity properties consist of? Are you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dejarma Posted December 27, 2018 #190 Share Posted December 27, 2018 9 minutes ago, OverSword said: BS. People, even you I believe, ask me where I got a piece of information I posted, I tell them where, where to look or provide a link. This guy made several claims about this subject which I have not heard but refuses to make any effort to substantiate them. Nice try. i said i'm done== i should have been more specific= i meant i'm done with you! i'll ask you not to reply to me on this subject again... i'd appreciate it. thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+OverSword Posted December 27, 2018 #191 Share Posted December 27, 2018 (edited) @DejarmaI’m sorry, did I ever initiate dialogue with you? No. You did with me. Sorry if it didn’t go your way. You can put me on ignore if you want, but don’t try to tell me what, who or how to respond to people on this forum, not even yourself. There are already rules Set by Saru and I’m well within them. Edited December 27, 2018 by OverSword Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+OverSword Posted December 27, 2018 #192 Share Posted December 27, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Dejarma said: Even the top ufologists think he is The WHAT??????? I doubt I’ll be able to resist now. Spoiler Edited December 27, 2018 by OverSword Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Duck Posted December 27, 2018 #193 Share Posted December 27, 2018 On 24/12/2018 at 7:03 PM, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said: Can anyone translate gostar ? Maybe... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dejarma Posted December 27, 2018 #194 Share Posted December 27, 2018 3 minutes ago, Golden Duck said: Maybe... who could be bothered to try? futile/ pointless/ boring just let these people boil in their own fantasy juice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stereologist Posted December 27, 2018 #195 Share Posted December 27, 2018 The simple fact is that Lazar appears to have held a lower paid job at a site where he did not have to have a clearance since he might not have had to enter a room requiring clearance or could have entered such rooms after any sensitive had been removed from sight. Anything that can be checked shows Lazar is not truthful from his background to the material he supposedly witnessed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stereologist Posted December 27, 2018 #196 Share Posted December 27, 2018 On 11/27/2018 at 2:53 PM, Scudbuster said: Looking forward to it. And here hopefully soon the brilliance and determination of T Townsend Brown will become much more widely known. Brown was simply wrong. He did not observe anything special. He was unable to accept that, Lazar on the other hand didn't observe anything. He simply was unable to make any guesses that stood the test of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stereologist Posted December 27, 2018 #197 Share Posted December 27, 2018 15 hours ago, Scudbuster said: Oh, that's so, so, spot on.....uh huh. Well, the military thought enough of his work it all went "deep black" around 1960 or thereabouts.....so funny that happened. And MRI units have about as much to do with anti gravity as my kitchen microwave does. Oh please support this story. I agree that MRI units, btw that is Tesla today, has nothing to do with anti-gravity. Too bad Brown was so far out of his depth he couldn't see that. As I pointed out in another thread, a pane has been built that flies with no moving parts doing what Brown was doing. Too bad your hero was so incompetent he could not understand what he was doing. http://news.mit.edu/2018/first-ionic-wind-plane-no-moving-parts-1121 Quote Now MIT engineers have built and flown the first-ever plane with no moving parts. Instead of propellers or turbines, the light aircraft is powered by an “ionic wind” — a silent but mighty flow of ions that is produced aboard the plane, and that generates enough thrust to propel the plane over a sustained, steady flight. So sad you can't figure out that Brown was a failure with his idea of anti-gravity. All Brown did was repeat a well known phenomenon and not understand that is all he did. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trelane Posted December 27, 2018 #198 Share Posted December 27, 2018 11 hours ago, OverSword said: No you just make unsubstantiated claims. You say the stubs were debunked? Prove it. There is zero reason for me to prove your statement for you. You said it, back it up or you’re no better than people that say aliens visit us. Weak. You can huff and you can puff all you like. The house made of bricks contains the truth and you won't be able to knock it down. Not even with large quantities of element 115. This has been a closed topic for decades and yet there are believers (like yourself) that insist he's legitimate. I've observed many of your posts here and in other threads. Your baiting for arguments sake is totally unnecessary and calling me "weak" is also unnecessary. I sincerely believe that no matter what links I or any others provide, you will just carry on blathering about the links, their credibility and the curious (not so much though) case of one Robert Lazar. I provided my opinion with no intent of us arguing over opinions. Yes, opinion, that's all and I needed no reason to defend it to a disrespectful instigator. I feel absolutely no inclination to provide that which is easily accessible only to fuel further arguments with you. However, I am a respectful person and will out of respect to the forum rules indulge you. https://www.news24.com/MyNews24/Debunking-UFO-Expert-Bob-Lazar-Part-1-20120825 ; please note at the end of the article where Lazar has shut down his website, pretty curious for a fellow attempting to go on press junkets to promote the "documentary". https://science.howstuffworks.com/space/aliens-ufos/bob-lazar.htm ; "In 1990 he was arrested for his involvement with the operation of a Nevada brothel" I'm fairly certain it was this nugget of info that shut down his ability to fully cash in at the time. http://www.stantonfriedman.com/index.php?ptp=articles&fdt=2011.01.07 ; curious that a physicist such as Friedman would take exception with Lazar since they occupy the same 'battle space". However, even he sees through the ridiculousness of the various claims. https://www.quora.com/Is-there-any-credible-science-within-Bob-Lazars-claims ; again curious that a MUFON contributor would completely rebuke any claims by Lazar as they could only help the pro-alien contact side of the argument. They side with Stanton Friedman's analysis and research into Lazar's background and claims. https://www.livescience.com/23514-area-51.html ; added as a courtesy. So if I may, what links can you provide that support his claims and the information regarding his background? Mind you, I don't need YouTube videos of Bob making the claims or anything written by him specifically. I need to know what other parties (preferably not George Knapp) can validate any of this fantasy. If you are unable or unwilling that is fine, I don't require an answer otherwise. I simply came on to state my opinions on the matter. Not to engage in a protracted debate about this foolishness. Thank you for your time. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+OverSword Posted December 27, 2018 #199 Share Posted December 27, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Trelane said: You can huff and you can puff all you like. The house made of bricks contains the truth and you won't be able to knock it down. Not even with large quantities of element 115. This has been a closed topic for decades and yet there are believers (like yourself) that insist he's legitimate. I've observed many of your posts here and in other threads. Your baiting for arguments sake is totally unnecessary and calling me "weak" is also unnecessary. I sincerely believe that no matter what links I or any others provide, you will just carry on blathering about the links, their credibility and the curious (not so much though) case of one Robert Lazar. I provided my opinion with no intent of us arguing over opinions. Yes, opinion, that's all and I needed no reason to defend it to a disrespectful instigator. I feel absolutely no inclination to provide that which is easily accessible only to fuel further arguments with you. However, I am a respectful person and will out of respect to the forum rules indulge you. https://www.news24.com/MyNews24/Debunking-UFO-Expert-Bob-Lazar-Part-1-20120825 ; please note at the end of the article where Lazar has shut down his website, pretty curious for a fellow attempting to go on press junkets to promote the "documentary". https://science.howstuffworks.com/space/aliens-ufos/bob-lazar.htm ; "In 1990 he was arrested for his involvement with the operation of a Nevada brothel" I'm fairly certain it was this nugget of info that shut down his ability to fully cash in at the time. http://www.stantonfriedman.com/index.php?ptp=articles&fdt=2011.01.07 ; curious that a physicist such as Friedman would take exception with Lazar since they occupy the same 'battle space". However, even he sees through the ridiculousness of the various claims. https://www.quora.com/Is-there-any-credible-science-within-Bob-Lazars-claims ; again curious that a MUFON contributor would completely rebuke any claims by Lazar as they could only help the pro-alien contact side of the argument. They side with Stanton Friedman's analysis and research into Lazar's background and claims. https://www.livescience.com/23514-area-51.html ; added as a courtesy. So if I may, what links can you provide that support his claims and the information regarding his background? Mind you, I don't need YouTube videos of Bob making the claims or anything written by him specifically. I need to know what other parties (preferably not George Knapp) can validate any of this fantasy. If you are unable or unwilling that is fine, I don't require an answer otherwise. I simply came on to state my opinions on the matter. Not to engage in a protracted debate about this foolishness. Thank you for your time. (to the bolded) That's the thing though, see. I don't support Bob Lazar's claims. You and a couple of others have mis-characterized me. I'm not a believer as you have slandered me above. If you go through this thread and look at my posts all I've ever said is that I find this story interesting for various reasons. If you go even further and examine other threads in the UFO/Alien section you'll see I don't believe aliens have or ever will visit us on this planet. People got confused because I listen to a podcast in which the maker of the new documentary is interviewed. When people asked how come this or why that I would answer, "The dude in the podcast said blah blah blah" . You may find people asking why I find it interesting and me saying there is the whole thing with the pay stubs (which you may have cleared up) or the fact that nobody had ever heard of Area 51 before Lazar outed it, but that's about the extent of any level of support I have for Lazar. I don't watch things about ghosts or UFO's either but if I ever see this on netflix or redbox I think I will because the podcast interview was interesting. Edited December 27, 2018 by OverSword 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Krupe Posted December 27, 2018 #200 Share Posted December 27, 2018 29 minutes ago, Scudbuster said: However, somewhere after this time, the lid slammed shut and these various programs went into the "deep black". Obviously, the incredible potential of this technology had become very apparent to our political and military leaders. That's all well and good (I'm not the expert others are), but it seems to me that if the "incredible potential" of this technology had been achieved, we wouldn't still be using conventional propulsion systems. Ref.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II#Specifications_(F-35A) Quote Powerplant: 1 × Pratt & Whitney F135 afterburning turbofan Now that's pretty radical compared to the technology of 1955, but it doesn't come close to what you're implying. Of course, you could argue "But it's still in deep black projects!" I would hope you wouldn't, because there's no way to defend that. The fact of the matter is we're still using old fashioned chemical fuels for planes and rockets. You'd bet your bottom dollar that if anti-grav worked over 60 years ago, it would've made its way to the private world, and airliners would be using it as spin-off technology in some form. Since they haven't, well, there you go. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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