Gays not welcome in Priesthood, says Pope

[Orphalesion]

On 12/6/2018 at 7:36 AM, psyche101 said:

I honestly never understood the gay community being attracted to the the Church. It calls them abominations, historically has persecuted and killed them. Traditionally it just offers the gay community legalised hate speech. 

Isn't a gay person wanting to be a priest, or even bothering with religion taking the p***??? I don't understand it at all. Why would they wish to go where they are clearly not welcomed? 

In earlier times gay people sometimes became priests, monks or nuns in order to avoid a forced marriage or because the celibacy and office of a priest/nun/monk would offer them protection from persecution and at least some measure of comfort in their old age. Imagine being a homosexual woman in the 1200s, doesn't  being a nun, and thus relatively safe from male attention sound pretty appealing in that scenario? Or imagine being a homosexual male who isn't a noble. You won't have children, so there won't be anybody to look after you when you're old and sick, sure makes the idea of a monastery, where the acolytes will tend to you on your dying bed a lot more appealing than dying in the gutter.
Plus, in both scenarios you have a good chance of meeting other homosexual nuns/monks and have secret relationships with them, which reportedly happened.
And being a monk/nun/priest in those times also pretty much ensured that you were looked upon with respect and reverence, instead of having rocks flung at you.

And well...

There are many reasons why a gay person would wish to  be part of an organized religion. 
They might take comfort in the rituals and trappings (and tbh, where I live the topic of homosexuality doesn't really come up in services).Why should that be taken away from them because of something that is so much part of them as the colour of their eyes or skin?
There's also the thing that. No, those hate filled people can't just take God away from us. This naturally assumed (as do I) that the Bible is the words and work of men, not god. And the only time homosexuality is really criminalized is in Mosaic law, which, if you look at the gospels, Jesus declared void. So theoretically being a homosexual Christian is not impossible.
Then there's the fight against the Stigma of homosexuality that is still present. Not so long ago, Gay people weren't welcomed anywhere. So what, were we supposed to just hide in caves and never go anywhere because we were not welcomed? No, the older generations fought for our rights and we should not stop.
Religion can also be a great comfort in difficult times, and some people need that. And that shouldn't be denied to them, no matter what some old coot in Italy babbles while eating candy out of his gold dish.

Plus, heterosexual women are also reviled as the root of evil in many religions and pressured by the text to be servile. Yet there's liberated, modern, heterosexual women who are Christians. Do you think that's different from Gay Christians?

On 12/3/2018 at 4:15 PM, stevewinn said:

It seems all religions fear gays. If all the gods agree should we agree or disagree. 

 
1) Have you ever actually heard a "god" say anything? At all? Ever?And if so; where? Can I catch it on cable TV? Do they have a Youtube Channel where Yahweh, Amaterasu and Vishnu regularly debate about social topics?  Because from where I'm standing we just have some texts written by primitive people millennia/centuries ago (and well some other people who are a bit more recent, but arguably not all that more civilized) who "claim" that some god/angel was talking to them. Show me the proof that they weren't schizophrenic. And in fact, show me the proof that whatever talked to them wasn't instead, for example Satan (if you believe in him) in the guise of a "god" intent to spread hate and suffering. 
2) All the gods? Pffft! I assume you mean "All Religions" (especially since three of the biggest one technically worship the same one) And even then not even that is true. Especially pagan believes often do not bother with condemning or praising homosexuality. The Greek gods positively loved us. Most schools of Buddhism don't go out of their way to single out homosexuality as anything "worse" than regular sex (though they do have that weird rule about people being born with both male and female genitalia not being allowed into monasteries, because that might lead to monks being seduced) And from what I've just googled Hinduism is very split on that subject. Plus Hinduism, at least in some variations, has so many gods that I demand that you provide a proof a comprehensive poll, with all Hindu deities taking part, that every single one from Shiva to Kali "fears" homosexual people.
3) The Gods fear me? Wow....I must be so powerful. Or they must be very weak and fragile... in which case you gotta wonder whether they really are "gods" or what makes them so "divine" if they have to be afraid of mere mortals.

[XenoFish]

Just now, RabidMongoose said:

I was going to point out what was wrong with the logic in your reply.

But I then read your name and well...… enough said lol.

You have an amazing ability to try and force circular objects into square holes. You convince yourself they fit (despite everyone else being able to see that they dont), and then most bizarrely you put together logically flawed statements to back up your delusion. It doesnt work on us, get real lol

You make terrible arguments to fit your beliefs. 

[Duke Wellington]

9 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

I suppose it depends on what you mean when you say 'do evil', because from what I understand, simply not believing in and not worshipping your god is 'evil' and worthy of damnation in your gods eyes.

God in the Bible creates you as a creature with freewill.

You are supposed to show you have a heart towards other people when deciding how to use that freewill.

[XenoFish]

Just now, RabidMongoose said:

God in the Bible creates you as a creature with freewill.

You are supposed to show you have a heart towards other people when deciding how to use that freewill.

Or you're punished by this same god for using your free will.

[Duke Wellington]

2 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Poor analogy on your part. Laws are created with the intent to create and maintain stability in a society. They also, in the U.S., detail what punishment is appropriate for crimes committed. Judges maintain order in the court, and insure that proper procedures are followed. It is the JURY who decides if the defendant is guilty. It is then the Judge's responsibility to hand out the sentence, in accordance to the parameters of the law.

Quite unlike the accepted image of god as judge, jury and executioner.

You are over reading into my reply, the point was showing his argument to be irrational.

[Duke Wellington]

1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

Or you're punished by this same god for using your free will.

Yes, if you use your freewill to do evil then you get punished.

 

[XenoFish]

Just now, RabidMongoose said:

Yes, if you use your freewill to do evil then you get punished.

 

However if god created us we are doing nothing more than following the programming we're give, thus no free will. 

[Duke Wellington]

6 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

1) Have you ever actually heard a "god" say anything? At all? Ever?And if so; where? Can I catch it on cable TV? Do they have a Youtube Channel where Yahweh, Amaterasu and Vishnu regularly debate about social topics?  Because from where I'm standing we just have some texts written by primitive people millennia/centuries ago (and well some other people who are a bit more recent, but arguably not all that more civilized) who "claim" that some god/angel was talking to them. Show me the proof that they weren't schizophrenic. And in fact, show me the proof that whatever talked to them wasn't instead, for example Satan (if you believe in him) in the guise of a "god" intent to spread hate and suffering. 

2) All the gods? Pffft! I assume you mean "All Religions" (especially since three of the biggest one technically worship the same one) And even then not even that is true. Especially pagan believes often do not bother with condemning or praising homosexuality. The Greek gods positively loved us. Most schools of Buddhism don't go out of their way to single out homosexuality as anything "worse" than regular sex (though they do have that weird rule about people being born with both male and female genitalia not being allowed into monasteries, because that might lead to monks being seduced) And from what I've just googled Hinduism is very split on that subject. Plus Hinduism, at least in some variations, has so many gods that I demand that you provide a proof a comprehensive poll, with all Hindu deities taking part, that every single one from Shiva to Kali "fears" homosexual people.
3) The Gods fear me? Wow....I must be so powerful. Or they must be very weak and fragile... in which case you gotta wonder whether they really are "gods" or what makes them so "divine" if they have to be afraid of mere mortals.

There are several layers of meaning in the Bible.

You cant see the deeper layers unless you become religious and are taught about them. For that reason you are treating God as a physical being and then wondering why he has never said anything to you. God is non-duality (what Buddhists called oneness) not a physical being.

[Will Due]

28 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

is it fair to say that his creations therefore have no obligation to their creator?

 

If it's fair to have been created, then there probably is an obligation to do something specific in response.

That something to do, is once in a lifetime. Lose this life, lose the opportunity to do specifically what we were created to do.

Probably at least, to take responsibility of the obligation to the Creator, without whom, no one would be alive in the first place. 

 

 

[Jodie.Lynne]

3 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

God in the Bible creates you as a creature with freewill.

You are supposed to show you have a heart towards other people when deciding how to use that freewill.

Except that 'god in the bible' seems to have no problem violating people's 'free will' when it suits him.

"hardening Pharaoh's heart" for one example in Exodus, when that individual had decided to allow the Israelites to leave.

Impregnating a young woman, Mary, without so much as an "excuse me, may I borrow your womb?" Or did she consent to being violated? The book is a little fuzzy on that detail.

Or even Job, a devoted worshipper of his god, obeying all his laws, turned over to gods adversary for a plaything. I think that would be a violation of free will, yes?

[Will Due]

3 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Except that 'god in the bible' seems to have no problem violating people's 'free will' when it suits him.

"hardening Pharaoh's heart" for one example in Exodus, when that individual had decided to allow the Israelites to leave.

Impregnating a young woman, Mary, without so much as an "excuse me, may I borrow your womb?" Or did she consent to being violated? The book is a little fuzzy on that detail.

Or even Job, a devoted worshipper of his god, obeying all his laws, turned over to gods adversary for a plaything. I think that would be a violation of free will, yes?

 

No. It's not a violation of free will that the writers of the things recorded in the Bible did not get every last detail exactly right.

It's the entire point of being like we all find ourselves. Imperfect. But with a golden opportunity to grow and by our free will choices, become perfected.

Which obviously, isn't likely to happen in one short mortal life.

 

 

[Jodie.Lynne]

On ‎12‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 1:36 AM, psyche101 said:

Isn't a gay person wanting to be a priest, or even bothering with religion taking the p***??? I don't understand it at all. Why would they wish to go where they are clearly not welcomed? 

So, in your opinion, gays can't have a religious calling? You see, being Christian and gay has to be painful. If you are not out, you live in fear of being discovered and the Christian world seems to have a very defined position of what's going to happen to you, regardless of how devoted and pious you are. For many Christians, gay = hell. 

If you are out, many churches will turn you away. And again, gay = hell.

Imagine the pain one must feel, when their priest/pastor/minister gets up in front of a congregation and tells them that certain people are evil and damned simply for who they love. Heartbreaking.

I imagine people felt the same way when racist, bigoted priests took to the pulpit to condemn interracial couples as 'unnatural'.

[Jodie.Lynne]

On ‎12‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 10:15 AM, stevewinn said:

It seems all religions fear gays. If all the gods agree should we agree or disagree. 

I'd love to see the sources for this claim. 

I'd also love to see the evidence that any gods actually exist.

[Rlyeh]

On ‎6‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 5:06 PM, psyche101 said:

I honestly never understood the gay community being attracted to the the Church. It calls them abominations, historically has persecuted and killed them. Traditionally it just offers the gay community legalised hate speech. 

Like a non-white wanting to join the klan.

[Will Due]

2 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

I'd also love to see the evidence that any gods actually exist.

 

Think of your experiences. Then look within.

 

 

[Duke Wellington]

30 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

However if god created us we are doing nothing more than following the programming we're give, thus no free will. 

If you are being genuine with your reply (and not trying to troll) then the issue for you seems to be about determinism.

Firstly robots are not conscious, do not have freewill, and do not have emotions. They are nothing more than machines executing lines of computer code designed to mimic human behaviour. That is not the same as being conscious, having freewill, or feeling emotions.

Next students at High School and College often mistake atoms as being like pool balls. Therefore they reason if they know the position of every atom in the universe, the directions they are travelling in, and how much energy they have, then both the past and future can be predicted. That is the essence of determinism and where ideas of there being no freewill come from. Such views came into existence at a time when scientists lacked the tools to investigate how atoms and reality work. While we now know, students dont find out unless they do a relevant degree.

Atoms are not deterministic they are indeterministic (this is what quantum mechanics is about). Therefore fate or pre-determined outcomes do not exist in our universe. Any psychologist or experienced manager knows that human beings are not deterministic. They have freewill because they are capable of indeterminism in their actions and behaviours. Furthermore any robotics engineer or computer programmer knows that you cannot program indeterminism into a machine. It is something technically impossible.

Why is it impossible? Because we dont know how to create true indeterministic behaviour. We dont know where it comes from, why it exists, how it exists, or the mechanics which enable it. Its there, its embedded into the very fabric or reality, its present in your mind, but it isn't something any scientist knows how to mimic.

Edited December 9, 2018 by RabidMongoose

[Duke Wellington]

21 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Except that 'god in the bible' seems to have no problem violating people's 'free will' when it suits him.

"hardening Pharaoh's heart" for one example in Exodus, when that individual had decided to allow the Israelites to leave.

Impregnating a young woman, Mary, without so much as an "excuse me, may I borrow your womb?" Or did she consent to being violated? The book is a little fuzzy on that detail.

Or even Job, a devoted worshipper of his god, obeying all his laws, turned over to gods adversary for a plaything. I think that would be a violation of free will, yes?

There is some negativity in there not backed up by what is written in the Bible.

If you are asking me if God can interfere with his creation then the answer is yes.

[Jodie.Lynne]

On ‎12‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 4:00 PM, Podo said:

Christians hating gays? That's not exactly new. I'm more curious why a gay person would ever want anything to do with the Church at all. I freely date both men and women, and even if I was religiously inclined I would avoid the Abrahamic faiths like the plagues that they are.

I think because some people, regardless of their gender identity or their sexuality, find some comfort in the better aspects of their god, regardless of what fearful ignorant humans have to say about it.

[Jodie.Lynne]

2 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

There is some negativity in there not backed up by what is written in the Bible.

If you are asking me if God can interfere with his creation then the answer is yes.

Negativity in my statement, or in your bible?

If god can interfere with his creation, then what happens to free will?

[XenoFish]

I'm actually trying to make a point/discuss this and get accused of trolling. I find that insulting.

@jodie I tthink the Christian bias is what drives a lot of people towards paganism. "Do what you will, harm none."

[glorybebe]

3 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

I am a bit confused by this. Please clarify.

Are you saying that god DOES make mistakes then?

And why do you consider being gay to be a mistake?

Ooops! Apologies, I misread the post. Thanks Xeno! That will teach me to read before coffee.

 

Now that I'm a bit more alert, let me rephrase.

Your friend thinks that being gay is a mistake, yet her god doesn't make mistakes. How does she rationalize these two opposing concepts?

And why is she (and her god) so concerned about who people can love? And what they do behind closed doors?

I understand that you can't answer for her, but did she even notice the illogic?

To me, it just proved that so many people who are Christian aren't logical and many don't think for themselves.  

[Will Due]

1 minute ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

If god can interfere with his creation, then what happens to free will?

 

Has God ever interfered with your free will? That's one thing that's never interfered with.

 

 

[Duke Wellington]

If you guys/gals want to know how God intervenes in the world that thats a secret you will have to join the priesthood to find out. Alternatively, you can get a book on Jewish/Christian/Islamic mysticism such as Kabballah or Sufism.

Your existence is to bring pleasure to God by having a heart towards the rest of creation.

[Jodie.Lynne]

3 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

>>SNIP<<

Your existence is to bring pleasure to God by having a heart towards the rest of creation.

So  are you saying that we are merely playthings for your gods amusement?

[Golden Duck]

1 hour ago, Orphalesion said:

In earlier times gay people sometimes became priests, monks or nuns in order to avoid a forced marriage or because the celibacy and office of a priest/nun/monk would offer them protection from persecution and at least some measure of comfort in their old age. Imagine being a homosexual woman in the 1200s, doesn't  being a nun, and thus relatively safe from male attention sound pretty appealing in that scenario? Or imagine being a homosexual male who isn't a noble. You won't have children, so there won't be anybody to look after you when you're old and sick, sure makes the idea of a monastery, where the acolytes will tend to you on your dying bed a lot more appealing than dying in the gutter.
Plus, in both scenarios you have a good chance of meeting other homosexual nuns/monks and have secret relationships with them, which reportedly happened.
And being a monk/nun/priest in those times also pretty much ensured that you were looked upon with respect and reverence, instead of having rocks flung at you.

And well...

There are many reasons why a gay person would wish to  be part of an organized religion. 
They might take comfort in the rituals and trappings (and tbh, where I live the topic of homosexuality doesn't really come up in services).Why should that be taken away from them because of something that is so much part of them as the colour of their eyes or skin?
There's also the thing that. No, those hate filled people can't just take God away from us. This naturally assumed (as do I) that the Bible is the words and work of men, not god. And the only time homosexuality is really criminalized is in Mosaic law, which, if you look at the gospels, Jesus declared void. So theoretically being a homosexual Christian is not impossible.
Then there's the fight against the Stigma of homosexuality that is still present. Not so long ago, Gay people weren't welcomed anywhere. So what, were we supposed to just hide in caves and never go anywhere because we were not welcomed? No, the older generations fought for our rights and we should not stop.
Religion can also be a great comfort in difficult times, and some people need that. And that shouldn't be denied to them, no matter what some old coot in Italy babbles while eating candy out of his gold dish.

Plus, heterosexual women are also reviled as the root of evil in many religions and pressured by the text to be servile. Yet there's liberated, modern, heterosexual women who are Christians. Do you think that's different from Gay Christians?

 
1) Have you ever actually heard a "god" say anything? At all? Ever?And if so; where? Can I catch it on cable TV? Do they have a Youtube Channel where Yahweh, Amaterasu and Vishnu regularly debate about social topics?  Because from where I'm standing we just have some texts written by primitive people millennia/centuries ago (and well some other people who are a bit more recent, but arguably not all that more civilized) who "claim" that some god/angel was talking to them. Show me the proof that they weren't schizophrenic. And in fact, show me the proof that whatever talked to them wasn't instead, for example Satan (if you believe in him) in the guise of a "god" intent to spread hate and suffering. 
2) All the gods? Pffft! I assume you mean "All Religions" (especially since three of the biggest one technically worship the same one) And even then not even that is true. Especially pagan believes often do not bother with condemning or praising homosexuality. The Greek gods positively loved us. Most schools of Buddhism don't go out of their way to single out homosexuality as anything "worse" than regular sex (though they do have that weird rule about people being born with both male and female genitalia not being allowed into monasteries, because that might lead to monks being seduced) And from what I've just googled Hinduism is very split on that subject. Plus Hinduism, at least in some variations, has so many gods that I demand that you provide a proof a comprehensive poll, with all Hindu deities taking part, that every single one from Shiva to Kali "fears" homosexual people.
3) The Gods fear me? Wow....I must be so powerful. Or they must be very weak and fragile... in which case you gotta wonder whether they really are "gods" or what makes them so "divine" if they have to be afraid of mere mortals.

Pope Francis is really talking about chastity and the consecrated life.

I think the motivation to specifically focus on homosexuality comes from Vigano, Vatileaks and the reports of gay orgies in the Vatican.