Gays not welcome in Priesthood, says Pope

[Jodie.Lynne]

15 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

ANYONE who has any contact with children in a non family environment in Australia is required to pass a police background check  This is not fool proof, but helps 

I presume you mean that anyone with a past record of child endangerment, or sexual misconduct? And that would apply to teachers and daycare workers or other professions that deal with children, yes? 

What about non-professionals? Ya know, that 'odd' uncle who seems to spend an awful lot of attention on his nieces and nephews?

 

[jmccr8]

2 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

It's obvious:

/sarcasm on

Homosexuals (male & female) just can't contain their evil carnal instincts. Ya know, the way "they" will just fornicate with anyone or anything at any time. The poor creatures just can't help themselves, being abominations in the eyes of the lord and all.

/sarcasm off.

Not like normal heterosexuals who never stray from their consecrated marriages, or ogle pretty girls (or men if female), or commit gang rapes, or sexualize children.

 

One has to wonder if the priesthood attracts pedophiles, or if somehow the strictures of a celibate life causes men to become pedophiles.

 

 

Hi Jodie

I can remember in my youth my older family members talking about how children were "designated" to be for the church, military or other familial stations of responsibility. They had large families and the "sensitive ones" were usually given to god so to speak.

jmccr8

[Jodie.Lynne]

1 minute ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Jodie

I can remember in my youth my older family members talking about how children were "designated" to be for the church, military or other familial stations of responsibility. They had large families and the "sensitive ones" were usually given to god so to speak.

jmccr8

Hey jm,

back in the olde country, my father told me that the oldest boy would inherit, the second oldest boy would be sent to seminary (seminary, that's an interesting word... very close to semen. hmmmmmm), the third oldest would be sent to the military. Of course, that would be when they were a bit older and there were other offspring to help on the farm.

Since my father was the youngest of 17 (yep, 15 boys, 2 girls. Grandmother must have been one verrrrrry tired woman!), I often wondered what happened to all the others. Was there a rotation? 4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, and 16th sent to the church while the odd numbered boys were sent to boot camp?

[Golden Duck]

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

That would be a very wise move.

Historically many gay men entered the priesthood, as It allowed them an excuse to remain celibate, in many societies where homosexual acts were illegal, and even punishable by death  A very small proportion of these men  became paedophiles.  

ANYONE who has any contact with children in a non family environment in Australia is required to pass a police background check  This is not fool proof, but helps 

How long have the various state systems been in place?  It's only been this century hasn't it? The various legislation seems to have only been enacted circa 2000.

On Francis' comments there's a bit of a conspiracy theory developing that the new transparency of the Vatican Bank wasn't well liked in the highest of ranks. I don't the appetite to become familiar with the details.; but, why single out homosexuals when discussing celibacy?

 

[Golden Duck]

1 hour ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

It's obvious:

/sarcasm on

Homosexuals (male & female) just can't contain their evil carnal instincts. Ya know, the way "they" will just fornicate with anyone or anything at any time. The poor creatures just can't help themselves, being abominations in the eyes of the lord and all.

/sarcasm off.

Not like normal heterosexuals who never stray from their consecrated marriages, or ogle pretty girls (or men if female), or commit gang rapes, or sexualize children.

 

One has to wonder if the priesthood attracts pedophiles, or if somehow the strictures of a celibate life causes men to become pedophiles.

 

 

Well you have to wonder if a paedophile can be made, if they can't be cured.  It's disturbing either way.

He're in Australia a sporting competition, the National Rubgy League, seems to constantly be in the news with domestic violence cases.  It definitely seems to be heterosexual males who let impulses take over.

[Mr Walker]

3 hours ago, Golden Duck said:

How long have the various state systems been in place?  It's only been this century hasn't it? The various legislation seems to have only been enacted circa 2000.

On Francis' comments there's a bit of a conspiracy theory developing that the new transparency of the Vatican Bank wasn't well liked in the highest of ranks. I don't the appetite to become familiar with the details.; but, why single out homosexuals when discussing celibacy?

 

As a teacher i had to have police checks  for about the last  30 years as part of my registration. (Act created in 1993) 

 it slowly became compulsory for all people and groups involved with children  Usually the organisation pays the cost but some times  a person haws to pay it to get a job with kids. In general yes, it is state based, because almost all our organisations are state based  But sometimes it applies Australia wide . 

 

SA Employers and responsible authorities are required to obtain criminal history checks for employees, volunteers, agents, contractors or subcontractors who have regular contact with children or work in close proximity to children on a regular basis; people supervising or managing persons in positions requiring or involving regular contact or proximity to children; persons with access to records relating to children; or persons engaged in any other function prescribed by regulation. The Act does not stipulate an age at which criminal history chechttp://www.imagineeducation.com.au/files/CHC30113/PreEmployment_20Screening_20WWCC_20and_20PC.pdfks are to be obtained. Practice guidelines recommend that all persons (including young people under 18 years of age) be checked

Edited December 19, 2018 by Mr Walker

[Mr Walker]

5 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

I presume you mean that anyone with a past record of child endangerment, or sexual misconduct? And that would apply to teachers and daycare workers or other professions that deal with children, yes? 

What about non-professionals? Ya know, that 'odd' uncle who seems to spend an awful lot of attention on his nieces and nephews?

 

ANYONE (in my state) who wants to work with children in any capacity including schools, churches, medical services ,  volunteering ,sport coaching,  any club,  scouts   etc MUST have a police check clearing them before they can begin. Families, as far as i can see, are the exception, but it is very common for young children to be removed from families because the  are deemed at risk of abuse or neglect  of difernt types.

They can be taken at birth from the hospital, or at any time, from the parent's home. Usually several police officers and   social workers, arrive unannounced, and take the child,  to avoid parents fleeing or resisting,or taking preventative legal action.  

Edited December 19, 2018 by Mr Walker

[Golden Duck]

5 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

As a teacher i had to have police checks  for about the last  30 years as part of my registration. (Act created in 1993) 

 it slowly became compulsory for all people and groups involved with children  Usually the organisation pays the cost but some times  a person haws to pay it to get a job with kids. In general yes, it is state based, because almost all our organisations are state based  But sometimes it applies Australia wide . 

Was that like an education related act that required teachers to be "fit and proper" people?

Do you recall if there was a "partial exclusion" from the "spent conviction scheme"?

[Mr Walker]

40 minutes ago, Golden Duck said:

Was that like an education related act that required teachers to be "fit and proper" people?

Do you recall if there was a "partial exclusion" from the "spent conviction scheme"?

It was a specific act requiring teachers, and some others who worked with kids, to have police checks.

 

SA Children's Protection Act 1993(SA) The South Australian system is an employer driven "point-intime" system requiring employers and responsible authorities to obtain criminal history checks for those engaging in child related occupations/volunteering.

http://www.imagineeducation.com.au/files/CHC30113/PreEmployment_20Screening_20WWCC_20and_20PC.pdf

Today a paedophile offence remains on record  for life, and prevents working with children. 

An interesting modern issue is young people who "sext" naked   photos etc to other underage people This is a serious  offence, and can prevent you getting a job working with children for life,  yet few teenagers realise this.   We even have a criminal offence of giving a false age on the  internet  if the aim is to develop an online relationship with a young  person to groom them for   sex or any form of harm.

This came when an older bloke pretended online to be a young man , met a teenage girl, and murdered her when she expressed anger at his lieing to her 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-15/carlys-law-passes-federal-parliament/8621292

The purpose of the Bill is to introduce an offence to criminalise acts done using a carriage service[1] to prepare or plan to cause harm to, procure, or engage in sexual activity with, a person under the age of 16. This expressly includes a person misrepresenting their age online as part of a plan to cause harm to another person under 16 years of age.

 

Edited December 19, 2018 by Mr Walker

[Golden Duck]

2 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

...

Today a paedophile offence remains on record  for life and prevents working with children 

...

It sounds like you're describing a partial exclusion from the spent conviction scheme.

All records are permanent in CrimTrac or whatever it's current name is.

The Spent Conviction Scheme gives you access to 10 years of criminal history by default or "no exclusion". For some professions you can gain a partial or full exclusion from the scheme.

I was just wondering if you could remember any terminology on the police check forms.

[Mr Walker]

7 minutes ago, Golden Duck said:

It sounds like you're describing a partial exclusion from the spent conviction scheme.

All records are permanent in CrimTrac or whatever it's current name is.

The Spent Conviction Scheme gives you access to 10 years of criminal history by default or "no exclusion". For some professions you can gain a partial or full exclusion from the scheme.

I was just wondering if you could remember any terminology on the police check forms.

Sex offences against children do not have any  "spent conviction" in my state (as I understand it) Iif oyu commit an offence age 16 it remains on record and active for your life  You are put on a  "child offender's "list and remain there for life, also.

 

 

We note that while it may appear that spent convictions are removed from your criminal history, there are records kept by various state governments can be brought forth when applying for certain employment and licences.

These are listed in part 3 division 1 of the Spent Convictions Act (Regulations). These include but are not limited to justice agencies, Commonwealth agencies, childcare applications and also firefighting and police services.

So, when applying for these various services and jobs even though your matter may have been dealt with, without recording a conviction upon a police check or record it will show that those matters were dealt with as such.

As noted above there are expansive exclusions to the general rule that have been codified. For example, the conviction is still relevant in regards to bail applications, sentencing applications and the employment process for essentially every government job. This act also contains provisions for further regulation to add to these exclusions.

 

The Spent Convictions Act 2009 (SA)

The Spent Convictions Act 2009 (SA) outlines which convictions will become spent and how this occurs.

An adult conviction will automatically become spent after 10 years (from the date of the conviction) if:

it wasn’t a sex-related offence, and

involved fewer than 12 months of imprisonment or a penalty not involving imprisonment.

Sex-related offences can only become spent if 10 years have passed since the conviction and no imprisonment was involved. An application will need to be made to the court in order for an eligible sex-related conviction to become spent.

Juvenile convictions (non-sex related) can become spent if the term of imprisonment was shorter than 24 months, and five years have passed since the conviction.

Exceptions

Some circumstances demand spent convictions be disclosed, especially with regards to employment in particular areas.

These exceptions include cases in relation to:

caring for children and vulnerable people,

parole boards,

emergency services, and

justice and commonwealth agencies.

https://www.lawanswers.com.au/blog/spent-convictions-long-stay-record-sa/

 

As you can see, sex offences and any offences relating to children are treated differently to other offences 

However ALL offences, even those spent, remain on govt data bases, for cross referencing, when anyone applies for a job, or volunteer work,  working with children.  

[Golden Duck]

9 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Sex offences against children do not have any  "spent conviction" in my state (as I understand it) Iif oyu commit an offence age 16 it remains on record and active for your life  You are put on a  "child offender's "list and remain there for life, also.

 

 

We note that while it may appear that spent convictions are removed from your criminal history, there are records kept by various state governments can be brought forth when applying for certain employment and licences.

These are listed in part 3 division 1 of the Spent Convictions Act (Regulations). These include but are not limited to justice agencies, Commonwealth agencies, childcare applications and also firefighting and police services.

So, when applying for these various services and jobs even though your matter may have been dealt with, without recording a conviction upon a police check or record it will show that those matters were dealt with as such.

As noted above there are expansive exclusions to the general rule that have been codified. For example, the conviction is still relevant in regards to bail applications, sentencing applications and the employment process for essentially every government job. This act also contains provisions for further regulation to add to these exclusions.

 

The Spent Convictions Act 2009 (SA)

The Spent Convictions Act 2009 (SA) outlines which convictions will become spent and how this occurs.

An adult conviction will automatically become spent after 10 years (from the date of the conviction) if:

it wasn’t a sex-related offence, and

involved fewer than 12 months of imprisonment or a penalty not involving imprisonment.

Sex-related offences can only become spent if 10 years have passed since the conviction and no imprisonment was involved. An application will need to be made to the court in order for an eligible sex-related conviction to become spent.

Juvenile convictions (non-sex related) can become spent if the term of imprisonment was shorter than 24 months, and five years have passed since the conviction.

Exceptions

Some circumstances demand spent convictions be disclosed, especially with regards to employment in particular areas.

These exceptions include cases in relation to:

caring for children and vulnerable people,

parole boards,

emergency services, and

justice and commonwealth agencies.

https://www.lawanswers.com.au/blog/spent-convictions-long-stay-record-sa/

 

As you can see, sex offences and any offences relating to children are treated differently to other offences 

However ALL offences, even those spent, remain on govt data bases, for cross referencing, when anyone applies for a job, or volunteer work,  working with children.  

Isn't that what I just said?

I was in a role where I looked at criminal history and insolvency via AFP and ITSA; before CrimTrac was formed. No exclusion under the scheme.

I note the Act you quoted was 2009.

Edited December 19, 2018 by Golden Duck

[Mr Walker]

13 minutes ago, Golden Duck said:

Isn't that what I just said?

I was in a role where I looked at criminal history and insolvency via AFP and ITSA; before CrimTrac was formed. No exclusion under the scheme.

I note the Act you quoted was 2009.

I wasn't arguing with you.

Just being helpful, in actually finding the relevant acts for my state   

My main point would be that spent convictions are irrelevant  when applying to work as a paid worker or volunteer with young people.

The police checks must include spent convictions, involving paedophilia 

it would not matter if such a conviction was spent or not. There are records kept which would prevent you associating with young people even if your convictions were spent 

Not really exceptions to the law, but an additional safety net of laws to protect children even at the expense of the 'rights" of criminals.   

ps i guess you know this, but  CrimTrac has been operating since 2000.

However,  it became part of the Australian criminal intelligence commission, in 2016

 

Edited December 19, 2018 by Mr Walker

[Golden Duck]

3 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I wasn't arguing with you.

Just being helpful in actually finding the relevant acts for my state   

My main point would be that spent convictions are irrelevant  when applying to work as a paid worker or volunteer with young people.

The police checks must include spent convictions, involving paedophilia 

it would not matter if such a conviction was spent or not. There are records kept which would prevent you associating with young people even if your convictions were spent 

Not really exceptions to the law, but an additional safety net of laws to protect children even at the expense of the 'rights" of criminals.   

 

Here is were you see a lack of parsimony in the law.

My point was equivalent to yours insofar as there was provision to be excluded, either fully or partially, from Scheme and consider records beyond 10 years even back in the nineties. 

An exclusion to the Scheme is that safety net.

If you're assessing for another profession that does work with children you don't need the spent records.

For example why look at the spent paedophilia to assess some to work on the tarmac at an Airport? You might look at crimes involving explosives; and, so those offences would excluded from Scheme and records provided for examination. 

[Mr Walker]

1 hour ago, Golden Duck said:

Here is were you see a lack of parsimony in the law.

My point was equivalent to yours insofar as there was provision to be excluded, either fully or partially, from Scheme and consider records beyond 10 years even back in the nineties. 

An exclusion to the Scheme is that safety net.

If you're assessing for another profession that does work with children you don't need the spent records.

For example why look at the spent paedophilia to assess some to work on the tarmac at an Airport? You might look at crimes involving explosives; and, so those offences would excluded from Scheme and records provided for examination. 

Quite correct.

As far as i know, in SA, the records search just shows up all past criminal activity.

It can then be used to prevent people working in certain jobs. However it usually only is applied to crimes older than 10 years,  where these involved children, or were very serious.

  Outside of working with children ,you can also be barred from a number of sensitive govt jobs  

As I read it NO crime, no matter how old is actually removed from  the records, and they can all be seen during a search  of the full data base. It is just that most crimes will not automatically preclude a person from working in most jobs, after 10 years, but some do.  

[Golden Duck]

1 minute ago, Mr Walker said:

Quite correct.

As far as i know, in SA, the records search just shows up all past criminal activity.

It can then be used to prevent people working in certain jobs. However it usually only is applied to crimes older than 10 years,  where these involved children, or were very serious.

  Outside of working with children ,you can also be barred from a number of sensitive govt jobs  

As I read it NO crime, no matter how old is actually removed from  the records, and they can all be seen during a search  of the full data base. It is just that most crimes will not automatically preclude a person from working in most jobs, after 10 years, but some do.  

Yes that is essentially what I said.

And I will use informal language here.

The Spent Conviction Scheme is designed to prevent unreasonable prejudice against ex convicts who have repaid their debt  to society.  For example the most common crime I encountered was DUI. This crime would nearly never never automatically preclude a person from being considered fit and proper.  However, if they didn't disclose this history it may be a problem; but usually people didn't think it was part of their criminal history.

 

 

[jaylemurph]

22 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Hey jm,

back in the olde country, my father told me that the oldest boy would inherit, the second oldest boy would be sent to seminary (seminary, that's an interesting word... very close to semen. hmmmmmm), 

Semen is the Latin word for seed. People used to believe it was the male essence that created life (for the first meaning), and a seminary is where the seed of faith was nourished. Apparently. 

It comes from the same PIE word where we get our word “to sow.”

—Jaylemurph 

[Jodie.Lynne]

1 minute ago, jaylemurph said:

Semen is the Latin word for seed. People used to believe it was the male essence that created life (for the first meaning), and a seminary is where the seed of faith was nourished. Apparently. 

It comes from the same PIE word where we get our word “to sow.”

—Jaylemurph 

Merci beaucoup!

I'm sure they are 'sowing' something ….

[Podo]

7 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

Semen is the Latin word for seed. People used to believe it was the male essence that created life (for the first meaning), and a seminary is where the seed of faith was nourished. Apparently. 

It comes from the same PIE word where we get our word “to sow.”

—Jaylemurph 

Oh boy, keep talking etymology like that and I'm gunna get all hot and bothered

[Jodie.Lynne]

11 minutes ago, Podo said:

Oh boy, keep talking etymology like that and I'm gunna get all hot and bothered

I love it when he talks dirty! 

[Occult1]

On 16/12/2018 at 10:33 PM, psyche101 said:

What is the point in the bible if nobody takes note if it, and if one writes their own version of the supposed word of God, why would it be taken seriously by anyone? 

The rock band The Who, said: ''Tommy can you hear me?'' once upon a time.  But the question should be, are we hearing Tommy? Have we truly heard Tommy and his good news? Have we truly heard doubting Thomas, purposely marginalized in the orthodox Bible because he symbolizes the perennial truth seeker warrior, we would dare question reality and it's constant sleight of hand. Since the publication of the Nag Hammadi Library in 1979, the Gospel of Thomas has become the most popular scrupture for gnostics and other alternative christians and has even mesmerized many pagan, hindu and buddhist schools of thought. Tommy's good news of inner knowledge and divinity, detachment to the materialistic Golems that weight down our souls, opening our third eye and higher mind to the Treasury of Light that is all around us, and the actualized promise that we are already self-actualized are living waters for a society parched by the sandstorms of extraverted religion.

Edited December 21, 2018 by NewAge1

[Mr Walker]

57 minutes ago, NewAge1 said:

The rock band The Who, said: ''Tommy can you hear me?'' once upon a time.  But the question should be, are we hearing Tommy? Have we truly heard Tommy and his good news? Have we truly heard doubting Thomas, purposely marginalized in the orthodox Bible because he symbolizes the perennial truth seeker warrior, we would dare question reality and it's constant sleight of hand. Since the publication of the Nag Hammadi Library in 1979, the Gospel of Thomas has become the most popular scrupture for gnostics and other alternative christians and has even mesmerized many pagan, hindu and buddhist schools of thought. Tommy's good news of inner knowledge and divinity, detachment to the materialistic Golems that weight down our souls, opening our third eye and higher mind to the Treasury of Light that is all around us, and the actualized promise that we are already self-actualized are living waters for a society parched by the sandstorms of extraverted religion.

Don't know about any of that, but he sure plays a mean pin ball.