Who or what was christ?

[Minimalists]

2 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

https://www.seeker.com/nails-tied-to-jesus-crucifixion-found-1765201328.html

 

The priest who killed Jesus was found.

Several things in that article stand out to cast doubt on it:

Quote

Since Caiaphas is only associated with one crucifixion -- that of Jesus -- the assumption is that these were the nails used, Jacobovici said. 

There is the above. Bolding my doing.

Then the below:

Quote

The theory that these were the nails used in the crucifixion, is based on two assumptions, Jacobovici admits: "That these are probably the nails from Caiaphas's tomb, and that Caiaphas was associated with only one crucifixion -- that of Jesus," he said.

 

Theories are great but not evidence of anything.

Quote

- Although the nails are of the right period, no bone residue was attached to them.

And the big one above.

[Piney]

1 hour ago, docyabut2 said:

https://www.seeker.com/nails-tied-to-jesus-crucifixion-found-1765201328.html

 

The priest who killed Jesus was found.

They are the wrong type of nails used for a crucifixion. He would of fell off face first.

The tops of crucifixion nails looked like big hammer peens to hold the victim on. 

[SHaYap]

Pilate was most likely scrubbed from the official records in disgrace ...
 

Quote

 

~

Mysterious Death

The circumstances surrounding Pontius Pilate’s death in circa 39 A.D. are something of a mystery and a source of contention. According to some traditions, the Roman emperor Caligula ordered Pontius Pilate to death by execution or suicide. By other accounts, Pontius Pilate was sent into exile and committed suicide of his own accord.

Some traditions assert that after he committed suicide, his body was thrown into the Tiber River. Still others believe Pontius Pilate’s fate involved his conversion to Christianity and subsequent canonization. Pontius Pilate is in fact considered a saint by the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.

 

~ Biography com link

 

-

The gospel story makes no Judaic traditional sense , that's not how trials are conducted according to Jewish Temple Laws, furthermore, Pilate would not take too kindly to a rabble . rousing  crowd of Jews forcing his hand, telling or pressuring him to do anything. A mob like it is said to be gathering anywhere near Jerusalem would have been cut down by the Roman cohorts with a flick of the wrist ...

~

Quote

 

~

... The outraged feelings of the populace were not calmed with the appointment of Gratus' successor, Pontius Pilate, during whose term of office Jesus was crucified. Pilate's decision to introduce into the city military standards bearing the emperor's likeness may have been inspired by Rome. Incontrovertible, however, are his own acts of cruelty and his miscarriages of justice, such as the execution of Galilean patriots without trial and his violence toward the Samaritans (35 C.E.). The latter act caused his recall to Rome and deposition by Vitellius in the spring of 36. So serious were the possible consequences of his misrule in the eyes of Rome that Vitellius was specially charged with the task of regaining Jewish favor by granting minor concessions.

~ Jewish Virtual Library LINK

 

 

[Piney]

1 hour ago, third_eye said:

The gospel story makes no Judaic traditional sense , that's not how trials are conducted according to Jewish Temple Laws, furthermore, Pilate would not take too kindly to a rabble . rousing  crowd of Jews forcing his hand, telling or pressuring him to do anything. A mob like it is said to be gathering anywhere near Jerusalem would have been cut down by the Roman cohorts with a flick of the wrist ...

 Sarmatian Laeti, who would more than happily do it. Like I said something added later.

[SHaYap]

1 hour ago, Piney said:

 Sarmatian Laeti, who would more than happily do it. Like I said something added later.

How much later ?

 

Quote

 

~

Laeti in the Notitia Dignitatum. "Regular" Soldiers vs. "Soldier-Farmers ...

 

https://www.persee.fr/doc/rbph_0035-0818_1988_num_66_1_3619

by C Simpson - ‎1988 - ‎Cited by 11 - ‎Related articles

My aim is to examine the presence of laeti in the western Notitia Dignitatum and .... there are seventeen Prefects of Sarmatian gentiles stationed in Italy and six ...

 

~

 

Vae victis... canis pugnax

~

[+Pettytalk]

6 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Well, Israeli archaeologists reportedly found a signet ring bearing Pilate’s name.

One Ring? Reportedly, nearly two billion Christian anthropologists have found Jesus.

Both Josephus and Tacitus mention Pilate's involvement in the crucifixion of Jesus. Tacitus reports, "Christus, from whom the name had its origin [Christianity], suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus…" Josephus wrote, "…Pilate had condemned him [Jesus] to a cross…"

That, of course, is how most of us have come to know Pontius Pilate. Pilate was the governor of Judea who bowed to pressure from the chief priests and agreed to have Jesus crucified.

https://www.compellingtruth.org/Pontius-Pilate.html

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

Just now, Pettytalk said:

One Ring? Reportedly, nearly two billion Christian anthropologists have found Jesus.

Both Josephus and Tacitus mention Pilate's involvement in the crucifixion of Jesus. Tacitus reports, "Christus, from whom the name had its origin [Christianity], suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus…" Josephus wrote, "…Pilate had condemned him [Jesus] to a cross…"

That, of course, is how most of us have come to know Pontius Pilate. Pilate was the governor of Judea who bowed to pressure from the chief priests and agreed to have Jesus crucified.

https://www.compellingtruth.org/Pontius-Pilate.html

That’s a lot of Jesus.

[SHaYap]

Just now, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

That’s a lot of Jesus.

You are forgetting what comes next, loaves of bread and baskets of fishes ...

~

[+Pettytalk]

1 minute ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

That’s a lot of Jesus.

Try to eat more moldy fungus, and help spread the good word on the bread of life. 

Sir,” they said, “give us this bread at all times.” 35Jesus answered, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to Me will never hunger, and whoever believes in Me will never thirst. 36But as I told you, you have seen Me and still you do not believe.

 

 

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

6 minutes ago, Pettytalk said:

Try to eat more moldy fungus, and help spread the good word on the bread of life. 

Sir,” they said, “give us this bread at all times.” 35Jesus answered, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to Me will never hunger, and whoever believes in Me will never thirst. 36But as I told you, you have seen Me and still you do not believe.

 

 

Vegemite isn’t mould fungus, it’s the waste byproduct of beer fermentation. Get your facts straight!

[+Pettytalk]

5 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Vegemite isn’t mould fungus, it’s the waste byproduct of beer fermentation. Get your facts straight!

Molds and brewers' yeast are both fungi. Stick to the beer, a better product for getting your dizzy ideas on Jesus straight..

	https://www.diffen.com/difference/Mold_vs_Yeast

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

53 minutes ago, Pettytalk said:

Molds and brewers' yeast are both fungi. Stick to the beer, a better product for getting your dizzy ideas on Jesus straight..

Ohh do go on about my dizzy ideas about Jesus, I’d love to know what I think.

[eight bits]

We had a thread about "Pilate's ring" a few months back, for those who are interested

In any event, Pilate's historical reality and general role in history are secure.

ETA, thinking about @third_eye's

Quote

Pilate was most likely scrubbed from the official records in disgrace ..

It is a curiosity that Josephus claims that Pilate was relieved of duty by his boss, the governor of Syria, after the Samaritans lodged an official complaint about Pilate's unnecessary roughness (a supposedly peaceful religious exercise "dispersed" leaving many corpses strewn about). The curiosity is that seems to be the sort of wetwork that Pilate was hired for in the first place.

Regardless of why he left office, it was about the same time that his ultimate boss, Tiberius, died. Pilate's departure came after a decade or so in the God-foresaken backwater he'd kept a lid on (i.e., supposedly, it was a fairly quiet interval), with the able assistance of the holy quisling, Caiphas. The reason could be as simple as Pilate decided to retire.

It is interesting that Christian stories about his later life are all over the place, everything from an invited suicide as (merciful) punishment for some misdeed to conversion to Christianity and onto sainthood. The diversity of these tales are an object lesson, IMO, about the apologists' fantasy of careful early Christian preservation of historical information by a continuous and unified oral tradition.

Sure, as soon as somebody translated Jesus' words and deeds into Greek, dedicated memory mavens kept the Greek versions pristine until finally Christianity attracted some literate converts who found them interesting (unlike Literate Convert # 001, Paul) and wrote them down.

Schoolchildren explaining why they don't have their homework are more convincing.

Edited January 10, 2019 by eight bits

[Minimalists]

9 hours ago, Piney said:

They are the wrong type of nails used for a crucifixion. He would of fell off face first.

The tops of crucifixion nails looked like big hammer peens to hold the victim on. 

Hi ya Piney...Thats the reason the nails were driven into the wrists and not the hands; the bones in the hand were to fragile and would not support his weight. I had some extensive research on this at one time but I got sick and tired of this stupid **** so I removed it from my computer. I say that to say this, it's a moot argument. What difference does it make if he lived or was a myth? And his death has not changed mankind in the least...No one can die for the sins of others, not a Jew, Greek or anyone else....If that was the case then murderers on death row could be considered as dying for the sins of other murderers.

Edited January 10, 2019 by Alien Origins
Correct spelling

[Piney]

1 hour ago, Alien Origins said:

Hi ya Piney...Thats the reason the nails were driven into the wrists and not the hands; the bones in the hand were to fragile and would not support his weight. I had some extensive research on this at one time but I got sick and tired of this stupid **** so I removed it from my computer. I say that to say this, it's a moot argument. What difference does it make if he lived or was a myth? And his death has not changed mankind in the least...No one can die for the sins of others, not a Jew, Greek or anyone else....If that was the case then murderers on death row could be considered as dying for the sins of other murderers.

One of the more well known archaeologists I've been on site with, Anthony Bonofiglio, worked on Roman sites and had pictures of the types of nails used. The only one I found online was a relic and was probably actually found in Roman Gaul but it was a crucifixion nail. But your right. It's a moot point. 

[SHaYap]

2 hours ago, eight bits said:

ETA, thinking about @third_eye's

Quote

Pilate was most likely scrubbed from the official records in disgrace ..

It is a curiosity that Josephus claims that Pilate was relieved of duty by his boss, the governor of Syria, after the Samaritans lodged an official complaint about Pilate's unnecessary roughness (a supposedly peaceful religious exercise "dispersed" leaving many corpses strewn about). The curiosity is that seems to be the sort of wetwork that Pilate was hired for in the first place.

That particular period in Palestine warrants a good peek at the documented records all around the Mediterranean. What went on in Rome affected Egypt which dragged Judah and Israel into the stinky pot. Its no secret that a lot of Herod's reputation suffered greatly just because he was not Jewish enough as well as Cleopatra's virtues suffered because she was still too much Greek to the Romans, loved her or loathed as much as many of them did.

The manner of Roman way of doing and getting business done during those times didn't exactly help matters, they'd rather be back in Rome made matters worse for the people in the other Holy City, after all, Rome was the Greatest in her heyday

~ 

2 hours ago, eight bits said:

Regardless of why he left office, it was about the same time that his ultimate boss, Tiberius, died. Pilate's departure came after a decade or so in the God-foresaken backwater he'd kept a lid on (i.e., supposedly, it was a fairly quiet interval), with the able assistance of the holy quisling, Caiphas. The reason could be as simple as Pilate decided to retire.

I don't believe there is a retirement plan for those of Pilate's trade. Either they return in a hail of Glory and Triumph or in disgrace, bound in chains. Most likely they were elsewhere out of Rome because none in Rome wants them around the Senate in the first place. Those that successfully claim to have Divine ancestry usually do end up better than the rest ... well ... relatively speaking of course

~

2 hours ago, eight bits said:

It is interesting that Christian stories about his later life are all over the place, everything from an invited suicide as (merciful) punishment for some misdeed to conversion to Christianity and onto sainthood. The diversity of these tales are an object lesson, IMO, about the apologists' fantasy of careful early Christian preservation of historical information by a continuous and unified oral tradition.

War heroes had to be handled with care, Pilate did sufficiently enough in his youth for Rome to be regarded as one which helped his career and meteoric rise, but he wasn't truly Roman enough for Rome. It does takes a specific kind of grit to survive those heady days of fanatical martyrdom of killing all across the land at the time.

~

2 hours ago, eight bits said:

Sure, as soon as somebody translated Jesus' words and deeds into Greek, dedicated memory mavens kept the Greek versions pristine until finally Christianity attracted some literate converts who found them interesting (unlike Literate Convert # 001, Paul) and wrote them down.

Schoolchildren explaining why they don't have their homework are more convincing.

As for this, I'd rather not wade into the stink of who thought they were the Holiest of the Holy and the convenient whispering of God in whose ears

~

[+DieChecker]

16 hours ago, eight bits said:

I'm not following the train of thinking here. Seems the evangelists thought they knew that Pontius Pilate ordered aome people crucified.

As to his historical reality, we have a fragmentary inscription mentioning him, and both Philo and Josephus wrote about him. The canonical gospels all mention him, not that those are of much value as history.

Question: Many discount the Gospels because of the supernatural elements. Did Philo, or Josephus, ever report anything supernatural as if it was fact?

[Piney]

1 hour ago, DieChecker said:

Question: Many discount the Gospels because of the supernatural elements. Did Philo, or Josephus, ever report anything supernatural as if it was fact?

The sections in Josephus about Jesus are most likely "pious fraud" added later but no, no miracles.

[eight bits]

@third_eye

Pilate was of the equestrian class, which was OK and comfortable, but not exalted enough to be much trouble to anybody. So, if anybody could simply fade back into anonymity after serving the (now-dead) emperor, it'd be a "knight" ex-procurator-prefect of some thankless-task backwater like Pilate. Although we can speculate, he has faded - we have no clue what actually happened to him. Even that inscription wasn't found at a site connected with him. It was found among the filler rubble in a much later structure. What Pilate had built and put his name on was long gone, its ruins recycled.

@DieChecker

1 hour ago, DieChecker said:

Many discount the Gospels because of the supernatural elements. Did Philo, or Josephus, ever report anything supernatural as if it was fact?

Oh, yeah. For example:

https://uncertaintist.wordpress.com/2016/03/13/josephus-and-jesus-ii-jerome-josephus-and-tacitus-recall-a-miracle/

Philo's a different kind of writer than Josephus, so they're not really comparable.

And Josephus is the object of some skepticism, even for non-miraculous material. Living historians are stuck with him because he's the sole extant source for various things in the area, but that doesn't mean the historians are satisfied with the situation.

[danydandan]

7 minutes ago, Piney said:

The sections in Josephus about Jesus are most likely "pious fraud" added later but no, no miracles.

I don't know about that, one is most likely genuine, but it appears the other two are fraudulent which casts doubt over the one that might be genuine. However the one that's genuine doesn't mention Jesus. It just referencing James the brother of Jesus. Considering Jesus was a popular name back then he could literally be talking about anyone.

[Davros of Skaro]

1 hour ago, DieChecker said:

Question: Many discount the Gospels because of the supernatural elements.

Hi buddy...

 

There's textual criticism that puts aside any bias towards supernatural events (like no evidence of such) that puts the Gospels reliability in doubt.

1 hour ago, DieChecker said:

Did Philo, or Josephus, ever report anything supernatural as if it was fact?

Yes...

Give them a read.

[danydandan]

1 hour ago, DieChecker said:

Question: Many discount the Gospels because of the supernatural elements. Did Philo, or Josephus, ever report anything supernatural as if it was fact?

Many discount them because of the time between events and written accounts. But mostly because of the staggering amount of contradictory statements in the Bible. 

[eight bits]

50 minutes ago, danydandan said:

I don't know about that, one is most likely genuine, but it appears the other two are fraudulent which casts doubt over the one that might be genuine. However the one that's genuine doesn't mention Jesus. It just referencing James the brother of Jesus. Considering Jesus was a popular name back then he could literally be talking about anyone.

Three? The John the Baptist section is the third? Yes, I'm OK with that, but there's nothing about Jesus there,

The two purported mentions of Jesus are

= The "testimonium" from Antiquities 18, which wasn't written by Josephus. There's some possibility he wrote something about Jesus (it was 93 CE, after all, so there were Christians to write about, and they described themselves as the unintended result of an action by Pilate). A possibility of evidence, however, is not evidence.

= The remark that a man named James was the brother of "Jesus called Christ" in Antiquities 20. Most likely genuine? That must be because the two words called Christ are so well authenticated. 'Cause there are two Jesuses just in that same story, and plenty more in First Century Palestine. Those two words (in Greek as much in English) are the whole enchilada. So, the authentication is bullet-proof?

Well, not exactly. The root corroboration is from Origen. He recalls everything else about the passage incorrectly, except that the two names do appear as brothers and that those two words are in all the extant manuscripts. Those two words also appear three times in Matthew, a gospel Origen was writing a commentary about (in fact, that's one of the places where his almost comical misrecollection appears, the other two are in his rebuttal to Celsus, thought to have been written at about the same time as the commentary). Oddly, just about everything Origen recalls is similar to material actually found in Antiquities 20 - except that material wasn't written about this James character.

Conclude? Origen misremebered what he'd read and visibly was not re-reading from it at the time he wrote. At no time does Origen claim his description of what he remembered was verbatim, and he would have reason to think that his audience, reading those words in a commentary on Matthew, could figure out that the crucial phrase, Matthew's phrase, wasn't being attributed to Josephus, but rather was part of the paraphrase. Or what was intended as a paraphrase, anyway. What Origen wrote simply fails to describe what Josephus wrote about this James.

-

Edited January 10, 2019 by eight bits

[danydandan]

18 minutes ago, eight bits said:

Three? The John the Baptist section is the third? Yes, I'm OK with that, but there's nothing about Jesus there,

The two purported mentions of Jesus are

= The "testimonium" from Antiquities 18, which wasn't written by Josephus. There's some possibility he wrote something about Jesus (it was 93 CE, after all, so there were Christians to write about, and they described themselves as the unintended result of an action by Pilate). A possibility of evidence, however, is not evidence.

= The remark that a man named James was the brother of "Jesus called Christ" in Antiquities 20. Most likely genuine? That must be because the two words are so well authenticated. 'Cause there are two Jesuses just in that same story, and plenty more in First Century Palestine. Those two words (in Greek as much in English) are the whole enchilada. So, the authentication is bullet-proof?

Well, not exactly. The root corroboration is from Origen. He recalls everything else about the passage incorrectly, except that the two names do appear as brothers and that those two words are in all the extant manuscripts. Those two words also appear three times in Matthew, a gospel Origen was writing a commentary about (in fact, that's one of the places where his almost comical misrecollection appears, the other two are in his rebuttal to Celsus, thought to have been written at about the same time as the commentary). Oddly, just about everything Origen recalls is similar to material actually found in Antiquities 20 - except that material wasn't written about this James character.

Conclude? Origen misremebered what he'd read and visibly was not re-reading from it at the time he wrote. At no time does Origen claim his description of what he remembered was verbatim, and would have reason to think that his audience, reading those words in a commentary on Matthew could figure out that the phrase wasn't being attributed to Josephus, but rather was part of the paraphrase. Or what was intended as a paraphrase, anyway. What Origen wrote simply fails to describe what Josephus wrote about this James.

Yeah I also misremembered that it was John the Baptist not Jesus the Christ. It's certainly not bullet proof by any stretch of the imagination. 

[SHaYap]

1 hour ago, eight bits said:

@third_eye

Pilate was of the equestrian class, which was OK and comfortable, but not exalted enough to be much trouble to anybody. So, if anybody could simply fade back into anonymity after serving the (now-dead) emperor, it'd be a "knight" ex-procurator-prefect of some thankless-task backwater like Pilate. Although we can speculate, he has faded - we have no clue what actually happened to him. Even that inscription wasn't found at a site connected with him. It was found among the filler rubble in a much later structure. What Pilate had built and put his name on was long gone, its ruins recycled.

There's been a lot of interest of late on good ol'Pilate ...

Quote

 

~

The Mystery of Pilate's End

Pontius Pilate is known to have been a Roman governor of Judaea from about A.D. 26-36, which is a long tenure for a post that normally lasted only 1-3 years. Maier uses this observation to support his concept of Pilate as a less than awful prefect (Praefectus Iudaeae). Pilate was recalled after he was said to have slaughtered thousands of Samaritan pilgrims (one of the four incidents of maladministration). Pilate's fate would have been decided under Caligula since Tiberius died before Pilate reached Rome. We don't really know what happened to Pontius Pilate -- other than that he was not reinstated in Judaea. Maier thinks Caligula used the same clemency he used for others accused under Tiberius of treason, although popular versions of what happened to Pilate are that he was sent into exile and committed suicide or that he committed suicide and his body was tossed in the Tiber. Maier says Eusebius (4th century) and Orosius (5th century) are the earliest sources for the idea that Pontius Pilate took his own life.

 

Philo, who was a contemporary of Pontius Pilate, does not mention a punishment under Caligula or suicide.

 

Pontius Pilate may have been the monster he has been painted or he may have been a Roman administrator in a difficult province who happened to have been in office at the time of the trial and execution of Jesus.

~ Thought Co LINK

My personal opinion here is that one name becomes the key to this non mystery for me ... Caligula ... or "little boot" himself

As for poor old Pilate, he would have little option other than noble suicide, there would be no further opportunities for what he knows best and lacking any backing from Palestine or Rome, he's a walking target and his family and estates would be worse off if he had lived in ignominy.

We know this much about Caligula, mad or insane or not, you never know the what,why where or how but you always knows the who ....
 

Quote

 

~

Caligula « Jewish History

 

https://www.jewishhistory.org/caligula/

Jan 27, 2011 - Caligula, emperor of Rome, was a raving madman, but his madness was ... mitigated toward the Jews because of fortuitous boyhood friendship ...

 

~

 

When you make enemies of the friends of Caligula, 

~....