Victoria councillors look to reduce Christmas

[acidhead]

Victoria councillors look to reduce Christmas decorations, broaden diversity

December 8, 2018

https://www.timescolonist.com/news/local/victoria-councillors-look-to-reduce-christmas-decorations-broaden-diversity-1.23522941

 

Victoria shouldn’t be decking public property with boughs of holly, lighting up Christmas trees or handing out poinsettias, says Coun. Ben Isitt, who has won council support for a review of the city’s seasonal decorations.

Councillors agreed to have staff to report back on options for further secularizing or increasing the diversity of cultural elements in seasonal decorations.

In suggesting the review, Isitt said that a poinsettia recently appeared on his desk at Victoria City Hall.

“I don’t want a poinsettia. It is a symbol of the Christian faith,” said Isitt, who also questioned the lighting of the giant sequoia in Centennial Square outside City Hall.

“Muslims, unless they are mixed families, they don’t have Christmas trees in their homes. Jewish people, like me, don’t have Christmas trees in their homes,” Isitt said while acknowledging that overtly religious symbolism has been “dialled back” over the years.

“I think there are still many elements of Christian symbolism that are paid for with taxpayer dollars and, for me, that doesn’t reflect a clear division between church and state.”

Continued...

 

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[spartan max2]

I would argue that Christmas at this point is pretty secular in itself

[Wickian]

Just more chipping away at Holiday traditions to numb the masses to the dilution and removal of their culture. How in the world is a poinsettia considered a symbol of the Christian faith when the origin of it's holiday use is from Mexican folklore(albeit with a church blooming miracle)?

Edited December 9, 2018 by Wickian

[SHaYap]

Signs of the times really, no money no happy ... China though has no issues with splurging on Christmas secular spending
 

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Did China Really BAN Christmas??? Where's Poppy • 76K views

 

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[Tatetopa]

1 hour ago, Wickian said:

Just more chipping away at Holiday traditions to numb the masses to the dilution and removal of their culture.

A lot of those Holiday traditions were lifted from Pagan traditions: trees. lights, holly mistletoe, and yule celebrations were around long before Northern Europe was converted. The stores just use them to whet your buying desires and gift giving guilt.  Not so bad if the stores pay to decorate the streets and have the parades, they benefit from the customers.  Now if the Victorians have a costumed  torch parade and burn a Viking ship around New Years  like the Shetlanders do, I might spend my tourist dollars to show up.

[Space Commander Travis]

4 hours ago, acidhead said:

handing out poinsettias

handing out poinsettias? I've never heard of that being associated with Seasonally Festive Season. Maybe it's a specifically Canadian thing. Mind you, I'm not altogether sure what a poinsettia is. Let me have a look. 

[Space Commander Travis]

oh, it's a commercially important plant species of the diverse spurge family. The species is indigenous to Mexico. It is particularly well known for its red and green foliage and is widely used in Christmas floral displays.  Well, I thought M. Trudeau was all for allowing indigenous Mexicans into Canadia, wasn't he. 

Edited December 9, 2018 by Vlad the Mighty

[Space Commander Travis]

4 hours ago, acidhead said:

said Isitt, who also questioned the lighting of the giant sequoia in Centennial Square outside City Hall.

Does he know anything at all about the likely pagan associations of evergreen trees with midwinter festivals? Dork. 

[Hankenhunter]

1 hour ago, Vlad the Mighty said:

Does he know anything at all about the likely pagan associations of evergreen trees with midwinter festivals? Dork. 

And running around naked. Don't forget the naked part.

Hank

[Wickian]

1 hour ago, Tatetopa said:

A lot of those Holiday traditions were lifted from Pagan traditions: trees. lights, holly mistletoe, and yule celebrations were around long before Northern Europe was converted. The stores just use them to whet your buying desires and gift giving guilt.  Not so bad if the stores pay to decorate the streets and have the parades, they benefit from the customers.  Now if the Victorians have a costumed  torch parade and burn a Viking ship around New Years  like the Shetlanders do, I might spend my tourist dollars to show up.

That's why I said Holiday and not Christian/Christmas traditions.  It just rubs me the wrong way when someone arbitrarily decides that something is "bad and insensitive to others" for no reason other than a recent "controversy" or the person in charge having a grudge against it's origins rather than it's modern day intent/usage or simply wanting to score PC points.  New things are added and outdated things removed by popular consensus/culture naturally over the years anyway.  This heavy handed approach just frustrates me.

['Walt' E. Kurtz]

My head hurts

[aztek]

 

x-mas is a commercial holiday now. 

Edited December 9, 2018 by aztek

[spartan max2]

34 minutes ago, aztek said:

 

 

Another example of my point. My girlfriend and her parents are athesit and they still celebrate Christmas because they like it.

Edit: sorry Aztec accidentialy quoted you.

Edited December 9, 2018 by spartan max2

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

"Christmas trees",, Verboten!!   

Funny story that my kid told me just two days ago. I won't blame you if you don't believe it because I'm not sure I do myself, but it is funny LOL

My kid tells me when he was in high school, and there was a year where erecting a christmas tree in the school was a community controversy but they went with it anyway.

He tells me that he saw a Sienfeld episode where the same dilemma hit Jerry et al. Jerry decided to put up an aluminum pole to try to appease all sides.

So my son got the brainstorm to charge into the principals office and complain that they have to erect an aluminum pole for his religion. LOL. He swears the principal did it.

[freetoroam]

13 hours ago, acidhead said:

Muslims, unless they are mixed families, they don’t have Christmas trees in their homes. Jewish people, like me, don’t have Christmas trees in their homes,”

But the muslm  cab drivers are all for charging treble fares on christmas day. If they do not celebrate it, they have no right to put up the fares. Maybe taxi fares should go up during ramadan.

That goes for all those who are not christians, if a, eg: jewish cabbie does not want to join in with the festive spirit or does not celebrate christmas,  them stop putting your fares up. 

 

[freetoroam]

13 hours ago, acidhead said:

I don’t want a poinsettia. It is a symbol of the Christian faith,” said Isitt,

Well he best tell all the big companies owned by his fellow jews to stop selling them.

Funny how the likes of Tesco are happy to reap the money in, but that is how stupid this has all got, AND trading on the sabbath! Jesus would be spinning on his cross if he could see how people are celebrating his birth! 

I wonder how many christians do not go and buy presents over the weekend from the jewish owned stores? 

[Tatetopa]

2 hours ago, freetoroam said:

But the muslm  cab drivers are all for charging treble fares on christmas day. If they do not celebrate it, they have no right to put up the fares. Maybe taxi fares should go up during ramadan.

That goes for all those who are not christians, if a, eg: jewish cabbie does not want to join in with the festive spirit or does not celebrate christmas,  them stop putting your fares up. 

Business people charge what the market will bear.  It would make more sense for christian cabbies to haul people around for free to join in the festive spirit.   Maybe christian cabbies up their rate during ramadan,  Supply and demand is a rule that seems to outweigh religion. 

[freetoroam]

47 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Business people charge what the market will bear.  It would make more sense for christian cabbies to haul people around for free to join in the festive spirit.   Maybe christian cabbies up their rate during ramadan,  Supply and demand is a rule that seems to outweigh religion. 

Will have to ask the question as i have never heard of taxi fares going up during ramadan. 

Business people control the prices, the buyers do not ask for rises. People request a cab on xmas day, generally because they do not want to drink and drive, the cabbies supply them.

There is no reason why the fares should go up, especially if christmas day means nothing to  the cab driver other than just another working day. 

It would be nice if the christian cabbies did it for free, but it is  more than likely they would not be working on that day. 

We are living in a diverse country, people want equality, so let it be equal - either fares go up for every religious day or better still, no one gets ripped off and they stay the same. 

Edited December 9, 2018 by freetoroam

[Tatetopa]

1 hour ago, freetoroam said:

There is no reason why the fares should go up, especially if christmas day means nothing to  the cab driver other than just another working day. 

Yes, my friend, there is a reason, that most basic reason in the capitalist system, supply and demand.  If there were not more demand than supply, prices would not rise. Maybe there are not enough cabs on xmas night. Religion has little to do with it, just money. I might share some of your feelings on this but most of our system is set up not to do so.  For example, drug companies don't reduce the prices on drugs that children desperately need, they jack up the prices knowing a parent and likely an insurgence will pay the price to save the child.  Is it ethical or admirable?  I don't think so, but it follows that basic capitalist law, you are willing to pay more for something you need or really want, or something that is short supply.  

It is a chance for that cab driver to earn more money than he does on a normal night.  I can't judge his motives, maybe he is working to pay for drugs his child needs or maybe people out drinking on christmas are more rowdy than usual or throw up in his cab more often.  Or maybe he just loves money and wants flashy suits and gold teeth.  

Since this seems to be a known phenomena, those x-mas revelers could choose a designated driver, call a friend, or party at home. 

[freetoroam]

46 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Since this seems to be a known phenomena, those x-mas revelers could choose a designated driver, call a friend, or party at home. 

Not so much xnas revelers, more like relatives visiting relatives for christmas.

Companies  hike up their prices all the time, not cabbies. My point is,  it is to do with religion. Because of one day, the prices treble, businesses do not do that.

There is no excuse for someone who is doing their regular job to hike up the price just because that day is a religious holiday, it is only the christian day which is affected, ALL the religious days should be trebled if this country is supposed to be about equality.

But really, NO prices should rise because it is a religious day.

46 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

It is a chance for that cab driver to earn more money than he does on a normal nigh

It is taking advantage of people, if the cabbie is not religious or of that religion, then that day is like any other day to them, so they should not be allowed to treble the price because it means something to someone else. 

Imagine if one day of the year cabbies trebled their prices for muslims or jewish people because that day was important to them......there would be an uproar!!!

Edited December 9, 2018 by freetoroam

[SHaYap]

33 minutes ago, freetoroam said:

But really, NO prices should rise because it is a religious day.

I thought Christmas is a Public Holiday in UK ?

I don;t think Ramadan is though ... labor laws and all ... A pal of mine said legal Public Holiday pay entitlements are about double or triple depending on the jobs. Cabbies goes higher because the risks are elevated with unruly and drunk passengers, he says the cabbies would rather not pick up any to be honest but then a buck is a pound is a quid. I have no idea, I ain;t no cabbie that;s for sure, but it does have a logical sound to it.

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[Tatetopa]

1 hour ago, freetoroam said:

There is no excuse for someone who is doing their regular job to hike up the price just because that day is a religious holiday, it is only the christian day which is affected, ALL the religious days should be trebled if this country is supposed to be about equality.

 Gas prices go up when there is a shortage.   If the supermarket is closed, you go to the higher priced corner store. Prices go up on christmas because there are more people wanting cabs.  Prices don't go up on ramadan because there are not a lot more people than usual wanting cab rides.  At least I think so, I don't think it is about religion.  Even an agnostic pagan like me  would not want to drive a cab on christmas unless the pay was worth the hassle.  What about on snowy and icy days when driving is more dangerous and the cab driver risks his means of a livelihood in a collision?   Should he treble his prices when it is icy to make it worth the risk or stay home?

[freetoroam]

8 hours ago, third_eye said:

I thought Christmas is a Public Holiday in UK ?

I don;t think Ramadan is though ... labor laws and all ... A pal of mine said legal Public Holiday pay entitlements are about double or triple depending on the jobs. Cabbies goes higher because the risks are elevated with unruly and drunk passengers, he says the cabbies would rather not pick up any to be honest but then a buck is a pound is a quid. I have no idea, I ain;t no cabbie that;s for sure, but it does have a logical sound to it.

~

It is a public holiday because of the christian religion. 

Really as Tatetopa has said,  it would be better if it was free, all the goodwill advert and the whole peace at xmas thing and be kind to people stuff, trebling the prices is doing the opposite of the whole purpose. 

Now, hiking up the prices on new years eve does make sense as that is when the risks come into it.

We are living in a multi religion country,  other religions DO get their day off from work but it is not recognised as a public holiday, hence no price hikes. other religions want their religion to be recognised and be entitled to the day off or to go and pray on the side of the motorway or on the public stairwells,, then make those days a public holiday too.

 

 

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

8 hours ago, freetoroam said:

It is a public holiday because of the christian religion. 

Really as Tatetopa has said,  it would be better if it was free, all the goodwill advert and the whole peace at xmas thing and be kind to people stuff, trebling the prices is doing the opposite of the whole purpose. 

Now, hiking up the prices on new years eve does make sense as that is when the risks come into it.

We are living in a multi religion country,  other religions DO get their day off from work but it is not recognised as a public holiday, hence no price hikes. other religions want their religion to be recognised and be entitled to the day off or to go and pray on the side of the motorway or on the public stairwells,, then make those days a public holiday too.

 

 

FTR, your experiences are different from where I am in the US. They don't raise the taxi fares at all, but you better believe those drivers do expect a generous tip, which of course, they get. Taxi drivers and bartenders and waitresses make muchos el-tipos on christmas. other holidays, too.

[+OverSword]

And yet Jews on this very forum have recently stated they put up a tree every year, so this gentleman needs to dial it back when speaking for Jews.