Victoria councillors look to reduce Christmas

[Podo]

On 12/11/2018 at 2:40 PM, Hammerclaw said:

The Christmas Tree is a German pagan tradition popularized in the English speaking world and elsewhere by Prince Albert and Queen Victoria. Ironic that a city bearing her name would seek to ban them.

Christmas trees aren't banned, nor is that what Isitt is trying to do. We shouldn't be paying public funds to put them up, but there's nothing wrong with people and private businesses having Christmas trees if they want them. Downtown has Christmas trees everywhere. The sole issue is the expenditure of public funds for a christmas tree on City Hall grounds.

[+Hammerclaw]

23 minutes ago, Podo said:

Christmas trees aren't banned, nor is that what Isitt is trying to do. We shouldn't be paying public funds to put them up, but there's nothing wrong with people and private businesses having Christmas trees if they want them. Downtown has Christmas trees everywhere. The sole issue is the expenditure of public funds for a christmas tree on City Hall grounds.

Since it's "public funds" perhaps the public should have some say on how they're spent. Hold a referendum and let democracy sort things out.

[Podo]

37 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Since it's "public funds" perhaps the public should have some say on how they're spent. Hold a referendum and let democracy sort things out.

I'd be in support of that.

[+Hammerclaw]

8 hours ago, Podo said:

I'd be in support of that.

Oh, Canada! From the mouths of thy babes and sucklings hast thou perfected wisdom!

Edited December 14, 2018 by Hammerclaw

[+Hammerclaw]

17 hours ago, skliss said:

Which, back in the day, was a brilliant move. People didn't want to give up their parties/festivities so the church just picked those same dates as dates of worship/festivities. Who says people back then weren't as smart as the people today?

Symbols are subject to interpretation. The Church would reinterpret pagan symbols and rituals in a Christian context. They borrowed shamelessly, incorporating as much as they could. In Mithraism for instance, one was, literally, washed in the blood of a sacrificed bull. In Christianity, one was, symbolically, washed in the blood of the lamb--the sacrificed savior.

Edited December 14, 2018 by Hammerclaw

[skliss]

On 12/13/2018 at 1:09 PM, Podo said:

It's a Christmas tree. It's in the name. You can bicker and quibble all you want, but it's a friggin' Christmas tree.

My issue, though, is less about the display of Christmasness and more about the expenditure; if it was private funds I wouldn't care at all We should not be spending tax money on glorifying Christmas unless we also spend the same money on all other significant religions in the region, of which there are plenty. Or, we can spend 0$ on all religious events, of which I fully support. If theists need to deck their halls, let them pay for it themselves.

How about we spend based on percentage....73.7% of Americans are Christians so 73% of the decoration budget goes to Christmas decorations... 2.1% are Jewish they get 2% of it, 0.8% are Islamic, 2.5% are non-Christian other and there are 18% other "unaffiliated" and so forth.

Edited December 15, 2018 by skliss
Typo

[skliss]

On 12/13/2018 at 1:41 PM, Hammerclaw said:

Since it's "public funds" perhaps the public should have some say on how they're spent. Hold a referendum and let democracy sort things out.

That doesnt work out very well, for example, every state that put gay marriage, including California, on the ballot voted it down and then a federal judge came in and over ruled it. Ohio voted down legalizing marijuana and a judge over ruled it. What's the point in us voting when they just do what they want any way.

[+Hammerclaw]

16 minutes ago, skliss said:

That doesnt work out very well, for example, every state that put gay marriage, including California, on the ballot voted it down and then a federal judge came in and over ruled it. Ohio voted down legalizing marijuana and a judge over ruled it. What's the point in us voting when they just do what they want any way.

Taking that sort of absolutist negativism to it's logical conclusion, there's no point voting, at all. The Victorian council are putting their city in the unenviable position of not being able to use public funds for any sort of celebration not deemed "all inclusive". 

[skliss]

10 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Taking that sort of absolutist negativism to it's logical conclusion, there's no point voting, at all. The Victorian council are putting their city in the unenviable position of not being able to use public funds for any sort of celebration not deemed "all inclusive". 

I agree, it's sad...everyone loses I think.. I'm kinda confused that a time of year that specifically reminds people that peace on earth and goodwill towards your fellow man is something to be celebrated , in which ever way you choose...and decorations can be a good reminder of that.....is the object of derision and offense. You'd think folks would want the people surrounding them to be joyful and in a good mood instead of feeling disrespected and attacked. 

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

12 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Taking that sort of absolutist negativism to it's logical conclusion, there's no point voting, at all. The Victorian council are putting their city in the unenviable position of not being able to use public funds for any sort of celebration not deemed "all inclusive". 

Haha, Hammer man. Say that to Dems that voted for Bernie Bro in the 2016 Dem primaries. And Skliss made a point, too. For every ballot referendum there lies a lib judge in waiting.

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

2 hours ago, skliss said:

I agree, it's sad...everyone loses I think.. I'm kinda confused that a time of year that specifically reminds people that peace on earth and goodwill towards your fellow man is something to be celebrated , in which ever way you choose...and decorations can be a good reminder of that.....is the object of derision and offense. You'd think folks would want the people surrounding them to be joyful and in a good mood instead of feeling disrespected and attacked. 

Agreed, Skliss. Welcome to the New AmeriKanKa! -  where the rule of democracy is brushed aside by the ruling elite, a very bitter, angry people.

 

[+Hammerclaw]

1 minute ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Haha, Hammer man. Say that to Dems that voted for Bernie Bro in the 2016 Dem primaries. And Skliss made a point, too. For every ballot referendum there lies a lib judge in waiting.

Standard practice, these days; circumvent Democracy through litigation. 

[preacherman76]

On 12/9/2018 at 2:24 AM, Tatetopa said:

A lot of those Holiday traditions were lifted from Pagan traditions: trees. lights, holly mistletoe, and yule celebrations were around long before Northern Europe was converted. The stores just use them to whet your buying desires and gift giving guilt.  Not so bad if the stores pay to decorate the streets and have the parades, they benefit from the customers.  Now if the Victorians have a costumed  torch parade and burn a Viking ship around New Years  like the Shetlanders do, I might spend my tourist dollars to show up.

Well, yes and no. It had nothing to do with stores. Nor did Christians “lift” these traditions. In fact this was an amazing example of compromise and adaptation on the part of Christians to make newly converted pagans to Christianity feel welcome. Help them feel like they weren’t giving up all their traditions for their new faith. 

I often see people talk about it like it was a theft of culture. That wasn’t the case at all. 

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

right, preacherman. Now take "Tex-Mex"... that's theft of culture!   (and a good one,too)

[Tatetopa]

4 hours ago, preacherman76 said:

Well, yes and no. It had nothing to do with stores. Nor did Christians “lift” these traditions. In fact this was an amazing example of compromise and adaptation on the part of Christians to make newly converted pagans to Christianity feel welcome. Help them feel like they weren’t giving up all their traditions for their new faith. 

I often see people talk about it like it was a theft of culture. That wasn’t the case at all. 

You are right Preacherman, it is not cultural theft at all, it is just the Christian Church adapting to the population they are trying to convert.  Nothing wrong with that. Christianity is different in England , Mexico and  Africa because indigenous populations had different traditions.  Christmas might not look the same in Glasgow, New York, Mexico City and Nairobi.  Not as many Christmas trees in Nairobi for example.

Christmas trees, tinsel, and lights are not basic tenets of the Christian faith. like the apostles creed or belief in resurrection,and I would maintain those additions do have a lot to do with stores and are mostly for commercial benefit. Over the course of Christian history,  Christmas was downplayed and even shunned by those first American settlers, the Puritans.

In the early years of Christianity, Easter was the main holiday; the birth of Jesus was not celebrated. In the fourth century, church officials decided to institute the birth of Jesus as a holiday. Unfortunately, the Bible does not mention date for his birth (a fact Puritans later pointed out in order to deny the legitimacy of the celebration). Although some evidence suggests that his birth may have occurred in the spring (why would shepherds be herding in the middle of winter?), Pope Julius I chose December 25. It is commonly believed that the church chose this date in an effort to adopt and absorb the traditions of the pagan Saturnalia festival. First called the Feast of the Nativity, the custom spread to Egypt by 432 and to England by the end of the sixth century. By the end of the eighth century, the celebration of Christmas had spread all the way to Scandinavia. Today, in the Greek and Russian orthodox churches, Christmas is celebrated 13 days after the 25th, which is also referred to as the Epiphany or Three Kings Day. This is the day it is believed that the three wise men finally found Jesus in the manger.

https://www.history.com/topics/christmas/history-of-christmas

[Podo]

On 12/14/2018 at 8:39 PM, skliss said:

How about we spend based on percentage....73.7% of Americans are Christians so 73% of the decoration budget goes to Christmas decorations... 2.1% are Jewish they get 2% of it, 0.8% are Islamic, 2.5% are non-Christian other and there are 18% other "unaffiliated" and so forth.

We're not in America so I'm gunna have to say no to that one, friend.

[Podo]

On 12/13/2018 at 7:42 PM, Hammerclaw said:

Oh, Canada! From the mouths of thy babes and sucklings hast thou perfected wisdom!

[+Hammerclaw]

1 hour ago, Podo said:

Or Monty Python.

[skliss]

1 hour ago, Podo said:

We're not in America so I'm gunna have to say no to that one, friend.

I'm sure it would work in other countries....you know I'm being funny, but I really don't get the flap about it. Again...season of peace and goodwill. Let the decorations be a reminder.