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joc

The Science of Diet and Nutrition

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joc

No matter what discussion is taking place on any forum thread, at some point someone will introduce  Science  into the thread.  Scientific data permeates our real world, but for many  Science  isn't a 'real' thing. It seems like a vague, sort of 'geeky' thing that some people are into and some people are not.  Science is actually the very core of our wealth of knowledge and understanding.  Science shows us in real ways the differences between myth and reality.  What is real vs what is myth.

With that in mind...this thread is dedicated to   Understanding the Science   behind something that we all do everyday.  We all Eat!  There are so many diet myths out there it is really difficult to grasp anything concrete about what we should be eating, what we should not be eating, what is helping us, what is hurting us, what is healthy, what is unhealthy.

There are just way too many different ideas about Dieting.   What I really want to discuss and shed light on in this thread is the actual   Science   of dieting...the Science that disproves the myths of fad diets.  The Science that talks about what really happens in our bodies.  The Science of Eating.

I know for many, discussing  Scientific Data is like hanging Garlic around the neck of a Werewolf, but if we are really going to understand how the foods we consume affect our bodies, it is absolutely necessary to understand the   Science   of  Diet.

Just consider for a second...walking into a a Super Store...like Target or Walmart, etc.  In the Grocery sections you find aisle, after aisle, after endless aisle of Food Stuff.  There is the Chip Aisle, the Cookie Aisle, the Soda Aisle, the Alcohol Aisle, the Baking Aisle, the Bread Aisle, The Cereal Aisle... etc, etc, etc.  

So....again...with all of that in mind...I want to start the thread with a video that talks about the Poison of Sugar from a Scientific viewpoint.

WHY Sugar is as Bad as Alcohol (Fructose, The Liver Toxin)

  

 

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danydandan

Sugar like most stuff is good in moderation. You need sugar to live. 

The issue is people eating too much added sugar. 

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joc
5 minutes ago, danydandan said:

Sugar like most stuff is good in moderation. You need sugar to live. 

The issue is people eating too much added sugar. 

The word Sugar is really a thing that needs to be defined.  There is Ethanol, Glucose, Fructose, Sucrose... So let's start with Table Sugar.  Table sugar is Sucrose.  Sucrose is made up of one molecule of Glucose and one molecule of Fructose.  The body deals with these two types of 'sugar' in different ways. Fructose is in honey, it's in Fruit Juice, it's in High Fructose Corn Syrup...it is what makes the really sweet stuff sweet.   As the video shows, Glucose and Fructose affect the Liver in different ways.  Only about 20% of Glucose will actually hit the liver because the other 80% is absorbed by the other cells in your body.  About 80% of Ethanol (alcohol) is processed by the liver.  Almost 100% of Fructose is processed by the liver.

The real science of the sugars effects on the body is what the video is really about....What happens in the liver, how it causes the pancreas to produce insulin, etc.   Basically, Fructose is not necessary and the body sees it as a foreign substance, a toxin that needs to be dealt with.  

So....we don't need Fructose to live.  We don't need Ethanol to live.  We need Glucose.  Glucose is found in carbohydrates and starches.  

The real difference between sugar and HFCS (high fructose corn syrup) is that sugar is about half Glucose.  HFCS has zero glucose ...all Fructose.  And if you look at the ingredients of practically everything we eat...there is either sugar, or HFCS or both.  

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danydandan
29 minutes ago, joc said:

The word Sugar is really a thing that needs to be defined.  There is Ethanol, Glucose, Fructose, Sucrose... So let's start with Table Sugar.  Table sugar is Sucrose.  Sucrose is made up of one molecule of Glucose and one molecule of Fructose.  The body deals with these two types of 'sugar' in different ways. Fructose is in honey, it's in Fruit Juice, it's in High Fructose Corn Syrup...it is what makes the really sweet stuff sweet.   As the video shows, Glucose and Fructose affect the Liver in different ways.  Only about 20% of Glucose will actually hit the liver because the other 80% is absorbed by the other cells in your body.  About 80% of Ethanol (alcohol) is processed by the liver.  Almost 100% of Fructose is processed by the liver.

The real science of the sugars effects on the body is what the video is really about....What happens in the liver, how it causes the pancreas to produce insulin, etc.   Basically, Fructose is not necessary and the body sees it as a foreign substance, a toxin that needs to be dealt with.  

So....we don't need Fructose to live.  We don't need Ethanol to live.  We need Glucose.  Glucose is found in carbohydrates and starches.  

The real difference between sugar and HFCS (high fructose corn syrup) is that sugar is about half Glucose.  HFCS has zero glucose ...all Fructose.  And if you look at the ingredients of practically everything we eat...there is either sugar, or HFCS or both.  

The major issue is a lack of education and/or communication on the difference between all these sugar's. Even 10% extra sugar intake can lead to major health issues. So what should be communicated is, don't eat junk food eat fruit and veggies. It's nearly impossible to OD on Fructose by consuming fruit. With GMOs we can help alot with this.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/is-fructose-bad-for-you-201104262425

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danydandan

https://www.foodinsight.org/Content/3862/The Science of Sugars - FINAL Web Version Peer-Reviewed Manuscript.pdf

@joc the above pdf is quite long, I read it some time ago. You might be interested in it.

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Farmer77

Weirdly left this thread and came across this in an article on cracked

 

680138_v2.jpg

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joc
3 minutes ago, danydandan said:

The major issue is a lack of education and/or communication on the difference between all these sugar's. Even 10% extra sugar intake can lead to major health issues. So what should be communicated is, don't eat junk food eat fruit and veggies. It's nearly impossible to OD on Fructose by consuming fruit. With GMOs we can help alot with this.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/is-fructose-bad-for-you-201104262425

Exactly!  That is actually why I created the thread.  Unless one is ingredient conscious of everything on the shelf, one doesn't really have any idea how much sugar they are taking in.  But either sugar or fructose or HFCS is in basically everything...and the only way to know is to READ the ingredients label...and it isn't really that hard.  It's like the road to home from work.  Pretty soon it all reads the same.  

While we are talking about ingredients...I also wanted to say, for those who really don't know, Products list ingredients not by alphabetical order, but by a percentage of their make up of the product.  But what you really want to look for is Sugar, HFCS, acronym for High Fructrose Corn Syrup.

The other thing is alot of people think that drinking a glass of orange juice is a healthy thing to do.  But research has shown that the juice is almost totally processed by the liver in the same way that alcohol is processed...not a good thing.  The actual Fiber of the fruit helps the body to absorb the juice so that it doesn't overload the liver.  Basic common sense should prevail as well...would you ever set down and eat 30 oranges at one sitting?  NO!  So why would it be a good thing to consume the juice of 30 oranges at one sitting...it wouldn't and it isn't.

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joc
15 minutes ago, danydandan said:

https://www.foodinsight.org/Content/3862/The Science of Sugars - FINAL Web Version Peer-Reviewed Manuscript.pdf

@joc the above pdf is quite long, I read it some time ago. You might be interested in it.

I am very interested in it! Thanks.  So...I have never been obese...but I have had some problems with weight from time to time.  I was overweight...not grossly...but still...overweight the entire time I was involved full-board in Taekwondo.  It was only when I decided to go Zero Sugar that I actually slimmed down to a very low fat % of body weight.  But somewhere along the way...I got lazy...and so...I am embarking again on that Zero Sugar idea.

It isn't easy...in fact...it is damn hard.  Not to conceptualize but to actually do.  Because sugar is SO pervasive.  But when you think about it...what are your options for eating with Zero sugar...and I am specifically talking about fructose sugar....table sugar,  HFCS, Corn Syrup, etc.  All that is left to eat really is Meat, Dairy, Fruits, Vegetables and Eggs.  My father once told me...Eggs are dairy...you said you aren't eating any dairy products..well..eggs are dairy products. lol

Sugar is like...probably the most addictive substance on the planet!

Edited by joc
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and then

 

Yeah, added sugar in processed foods is a major contributor but even consuming too many less refined carbohydrates can lead to a lot of excess weight.  Essentially, carbs are broken down into glucose for fuel and any excess amount is swept out of the blood by the insulin and stored as fat.  The more refined and processed the carbs, the quicker the conversion.  A person can eat little or no candy or other sweets and still be fat if they eat a lot of bread, pasta, rice, potatoes, etc.  OTOH, a person can eat 3-4K calories a day and lose weight without being an athlete, if they consume only proteins and fats.  If people were faced with an advertising assault on the effects of too many refined carbs - pictures of obesity, effects of diabetes, high blood pressure and so on, they'd run screaming from the stuff.  The problem isn't the chemistry as much as the effects of emotions on eating behaviors and the little, pleasurable neurochemical "tickle" that we get from eating the stuff.  It has been proven that for many people, sugar/refined carbs ARE an addiction.

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joc
1 hour ago, and then said:

The problem isn't the chemistry as much as the effects of emotions on eating behaviors and the little, pleasurable neurochemical "tickle" that we get from eating the stuff.  It has been proven that for many people, sugar/refined carbs ARE an addiction.

Many people know what carbohydrates are and many probably do not.   The key word to focus on is Fructose.  The chemistry of how that breaks down in your body is very important.  Most of us are probably aware that drinking alcohol can damage your liver and make you unhealthy.  That's because alcohol is ethanol and 80% of the ethanol you drink is metabolized in the liver.  But fructose is also metabolized in your liver.  If you drink a glass of orange juice or apple juice or any other fruit juice...or any coke or dr. pepper, etc...almost 100% of that is metabolized by the liver...and almost immediately.  The chemical reaction in your liver regarding fructose is very important to understand.  It causes for one thing the pancreas to start producing insulin.  Too much insulin!

Consider this...what is wine made from?  Grapes  What is whiskey made from?  Corn  What is beer made from?  Hops and Barley  When you 'ferment' them the fructose becomes....ahem....ethanol. So what is the difference between a glass of wine and a glass of orange juice?   Not much!  The liver reacts to the oarange juice  the same way as it does ethanol.

All of these if consumed in their natural states are healthy and the body processes them in a different way.   But where does Corn syrup and High Fructose Corn Syrup come from?   Corn of course.

It is a fourteen minute video...but if you want to just kick in at 4:20 ...this is where it begins explaining the chemical process.

Edited by joc

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Eldorado

Thought this might interest you guys...   a proper sit-down meal in a restaurant is unhealthier than a fast food outlet meal. (Say experts!)

"The calorie content of meals in UK restaurants is "excessive" and sit-down restaurants are unhealthier than fast-food chains, BMJ research suggests.

Health experts say meals should not exceed 600 calories, but in this study they averaged 1,033 in restaurants and 751 in fast-food chains.

University of Liverpool researchers analysed thousands of meals from places like Hungry Horse and McDonald's.

They said their findings were a cause for concern."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-46540132

 

Edited by Eldorado
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XenoFish

It's all a number game. Calories in, calories out. I try to keep mine between 1600-1800 per day. Found that the biggest culprit was what I drink. Nothing but useless liquid calories. Had to cut them out. 

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XenoFish

I wouldn't bet on a vegan diet being all that good either. (Link)

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joc
6 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

It's all a number game. Calories in, calories out. I try to keep mine between 1600-1800 per day. Found that the biggest culprit was what I drink. Nothing but useless liquid calories. Had to cut them out. 

The numbers go far beyond calories though.  1800 is a good number...but it really depends on where the calories are coming from.

Let's say you eat a bowl of cereal in the morning with milk....around 300 calories.   Then for lunch you eat 2 pieces of pizza...around 600 calories.  Later you eat 3 pieces of fried chicken for supper...around 600 calories.   And then you eat two cookies for desert...around 200 calories.  

That is 1600 calories.   But what about the actual food you are eating?  How is a particular food broken down by the body?  It is there...the metabolism of foods on the chemical level of the body that is most important.

On the other hand...let's say for breakfast you had 4 egg whites in an omelet...with some ham...no cheese....around 300 calories   For lunch you had a piece of sourdough bread with some pasta...lightly buttered...around 600 calories.   For supper you ate a large piece of grilled or baked salmon and a baked potato...around 600 calories.  For desert you had a cup of yogurt non fat with blue berries on top....around 200 calories.

That is also 1600 calories.  Is there a difference?   Yes, there is a huge difference!  The body has to process the cheese in the pizza, which is extremely high in sodium and is around 70% fat.  The body also has to process the fat in the chicken...the fructose in the cookies...the fructose in the cereal, etc.  So...let's say 2 people  wanted to lose 20 pounds...in two months.  Everyday they were consistent in their eating of the same meals.  Every day for 2 months, person #1 ate the pizza for lunch  diet.  Every day for 2 months, person #2 ate the salmon diet.  Person #2 would most likely lose the 20 pounds.  Person #1 most likely would not lose any and might even gain a couple of pounds.

The reason is in how the body processes different foods.   So...in reality...Calories in/Calories out is a myth.   

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XenoFish

If calories are a myth we should all be breatharians.

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joc
37 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

If calories are a myth we should all be breatharians.

calories are real...the myth is that a 100 calories in a piece of bread is the same as 100 calories in a shot of whiskey....the calorie is just a measurement of heat.  How the body processes bread vs whiskey is what I'm talking about.

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XenoFish
7 minutes ago, joc said:

calories are real...the myth is that a 100 calories in a piece of bread is the same as 100 calories in a shot of whiskey....the calorie is just a measurement of heat.  How the body processes bread vs whiskey is what I'm talking about.

1600 calories worth of junk food looks a hell of a lot different than 1600 calories of real food, and 1600 calories in a vegan diet looks way different.

https://www.happyfacts.me/news/15-fascinating-calorie-comparisons-will-help-transform-your-diet/

Edited by XenoFish
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joc
3 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

1600 calories worth of junk food looks a hell of a lot different than 1600 calories of real food, and 1600 calories in a vegan diet looks way different.

Yep.  I had it in my head that calories are calories...So...I also was limiting my caloric intake to around 1800.  But I was trying to incorporate drinking beer into that 1800.  And so it would go like this...eat some really healthy stuff...make room for some ice cream...and beer.  Hey, I am right at 1800 and it's bed time...I done good!   Except I wasn't losing any weight.  But then...I said, screw it I am just going to eat whatever whenever and drink and not worry about it and see what happens...bam...an additional 15 pounds in a very short period of time.

So...now....zero alcohol, zero sugar, zero dairy...and that narrows the entire food choice down to ...Eggs, Meat, Fruits, Vegetables, Nuts...but I'm allergic to nuts so...all of the choices I am now making are being made toward...what makes me healthier according to how the body processes the foods...I'm not even counting calories...because the goal is to make my body create muscle cells and use the energy of fat cells to do it.

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XenoFish

I actually tried a junk food diet and lost weight. Then again I am an active person. 

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joc

The best part of keeping a calorie count, for me anyway, was in learning the other aspects of foods...the potassium, the calcium, the fat, the vitamins, etc.  And you only learn all that by looking up the calories in everything you eat.  That was a huge eye opener....but...we have the capacity to rationalize everything...so...some pasta or a couple of beers...what difference does it make...all calories....WRONG.....I soon found out how wrong I actually was.

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joc
1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

I actually tried a junk food diet and lost weight. Then again I am an active person. 

In the long run though it's like dog paddling in water....you can stay afloat and even get around to the other side of the pool that way.  But if you were actually swimming real strokes...how much more progress you would make.   A junk food diet depending on the calories you took in could result in weight loss...but then again...what good does it do to lose weight if you are making yourself diabetic at the same time?  

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XenoFish
Just now, joc said:

In the long run though it's like dog paddling in water....you can stay afloat and even get around to the other side of the pool that way.  But if you were actually swimming real strokes...how much more progress you would make.   A junk food diet depending on the calories you took in could result in weight loss...but then again...what good does it do to lose weight if you are making yourself diabetic at the same time?  

Depends on the diet you want to follow. I followed it for a while to see if it worked. However I didn't like being hungry all the time. Current I'm following the 2 plate method.

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joc
12 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Depends on the diet you want to follow. I followed it for a while to see if it worked. However I didn't like being hungry all the time. Current I'm following the 2 plate method.

What is the two plate method?  why do I have this sneaking suspicion I'm being set up lol?

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XenoFish
3 minutes ago, joc said:

What is the two plate method?  why do I have this sneaking suspicion I'm being set up lol?

You eat only 2 plates of food a day. I eat breakfast and dinner, typically leaving me with an 11 hour fast between meals. No calorie beverages throughout the day. I couldn't do omad (one meal a day) due to over eating and getting hangry.

If it fits on your plate its a meal.

Edited by XenoFish
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