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Ares_Zeusson

Think The Ancient Serpent Gods really existed

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Reignite
59 minutes ago, Not A Rockstar said:

Stories ARE just stories, at first. What they become after being read or heard differs.

"There once was a great beast who became enraged to find that a large tribe of people had settled where she wished to nest, at the mouth of The Great River. In her wrath, she roared and a great wind came from her mouth and swept the city away before her as waves of the water leapt and drowned it, driving out the trespassers before her like slaves before the whiplash of rain from the heavens, as even the sky gods wept for the dragon's rage. Her tail swept in battle and destroyed their puny defenses against her. Hearing her roars of rage and distress, and fearing for all of Creation, the river spirits rushed in and danced in her nesting valley and played sweet music until she calmed once more and paused in her raging before she swallowed the world. 

Happy once more and calmed by the songs she so loved, the Great Dragon of seas and storms moved on in peace. This is the real reason, why we now offer music and dancing abundantly in the city, in thankfulness for how the river spirits saved the world from the Great Dragon's anger."

Ten centuries from now, researchers find this tale and check historical sources, archeology, records of differing kinds yet available, and come to the conclusion that it was a tale written about hurricane Katrina and New Orleans. Others say no, and claim it is a faithful story passed down, not art, not imagination, about some ancient event when a real dragon came from the sea to land to lay her eggs. Dragons obviously were known to do that back in THOSE days.

Others say it was a description of a shamanic vision and should be interpreted as how troubles come in life and will pass faster if we take them in courage and good heart and good cheer.

Still others claim this is yet another example of Pagan mythology and it never happened, was just a made up thing.

One guy claims it is stupid to say it was about Katrina, there is no direct evidence the unknown author was even alive then to have written about it, the style is very like a known and famous historian who wrote 500 years later, but, it may have been a retelling of hurricanes generally, simply documented from a far more primitive time.

Some guy on a forum named Papageorge3016 claims it was real and that his realmeter rating would be about 75/100 and gets laughed at.

Truth is, they are all right, and wrong. Unless you can talk to the real original author, you don't know what he was writing about or what he meant. This is how stories live on - differently for each reader if it is really good and grabs their imagination and sometimes morphs a great deal among different groups and sometimes in ways the writer never intended. This is what art and ideas do.

JMO

I agree with you on that last point. “Unless you can talk to the real original author, you don't know what he was writing about or what he meant”. However, I've always entertained myself with the idea that learning Sanskrit givens one a more accurate impression of the author's intention than one gets after reading some translation or interpretation. Which is a very valuable lesson I've learned.

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Reignite
49 minutes ago, Not A Rockstar said:

Excellent. I have a special love for the Naga, but, I have always perceived them as being spiritual constructs or beings, a bit like we see later in Egypt with their blends of animal and human characteristics. I have never met them in reality, but, I can when I meditate, if I choose to, or and I have my own private take on what they symbolize. 

Given the existence of Kundalini practices in that part of the world, this seems even more possible to me. China also has its own form of Kundalini and happens to have a strong dragon lore as well. 

But, I do not KNOW the definitive answer and read tales like that as being for multiple audiences, layered, like African oral history also is. If you do not know, you hear a story. If you do know, you hear more than one from the same words.

Thanks for this. Sounds interesting what you have experienced. Egyptian symbolism always fascinated me, and though I have read about some indirect exchange between Egypt and India, I've never been able to connect any dots. Perhaps it goes back way further in history than the extant books permit us to learn about. It could be something different all together, but it feels related.

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But, I do not KNOW the definitive answer and read tales like that as being for multiple audiences, layered, like African oral history also is.

I did not know this. Can I learn about this somewhere?

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If you do not know, you hear a story. If you do know, you hear more than one from the same words.

Exactly, and they don't need to be mutually exclusive regarding their purpose or lesson.

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Trelane
3 hours ago, Reignite said:

I see you're becoming more offense and less constructive each post. You and others will blame me of course, but I already knew that was the fate of posting the things I did, before starting it. It's okay. Keep your fancy words and accusations. I'd rather not respond to this and stay on-topic now.

Fair enough let's stay on topic then. Can you kindly answer a question I posed to you earlier then?

What evidence can you present that supports your statements. By this I mean what fossil findings or genetic studies can you present that can trace back to the actual existence of flying serpents?

Thanks!:tu: 

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Carnoferox
4 hours ago, Reignite said:

When did I do this?

What do you believe Reignite? Your posts indicate that you think these texts were literal descriptions of creatures, not inspired by real animals or fossils. However when asked if you think these creatures are real you backpedal and act like you never said that in your posts. If you can't directly state what you believe on this matter then this discussion is just a waste of time.

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Reignite

Here's an account from a critical study on the Nilamatapurana, which is a traditional account on the origin of the Kashmir valley which involves habitation of Nagas and their co-habitation with humans.

Main source: https://archive.org/details/NilamataPuranaACulturalAnLiteraryStudyOfKashmiriPuranaVedKumari

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“The Nīlamata informs us that the valley of Kaśmīra called Satīdeśa was occupied in ancient times by the Nāgas only. Afterwards, the Piśācas and the descendants of Manu also became their cohabitants”.

Some background information: The Nilamata-purana is dated around the 6th century AD and contains roughly 1500 Sanskrit verses. It is closely aligned with the Rajatarangini which contains a traditional account of the royal dynasties of Kashmir. As the author (Narinder Sharma) says, “if the Rājataraṅgiṇī is important for the political history of ancient Kaśmīra, the Nīlamata is as important for the cultural history of that part of the country”.

Interestingly, [Narinder] admits the difficulty in identifying these Nāgas:

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The difficulty is about the identification of the Nāgas as they are still behind the veil of myth and legend, peeping out at one time as reptile snakes and at another as human beings. Ancient Indian literature abounds with references to them but while some of these references indicate their character as a people or tribe, others show them to be either mythical beings with supernatural powers or actual serpents with poisonous fangs.

The most interesting part is the traditional legend. A concise summary is shown below followed by a more detailed summary:

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According to the Nīlamata, the land of Kaśmīra was occupied for six Manvantaras since the beginning of the Kalpa by a vast lake six yojanas long and three yojanas wide, called Satīsara. In the 7th Manvantara, the water of the lake was drained off through an outlet made with plough by Ananta at the order of Viṣṇu who along with other gods and goddesses had come there to kill the demon Jalodbhava— invincible in the waters. The story runs further informing how after the death of Jalodbhava, the Piśācas and the descendants of Manu were settled there by Kaśyapa to live in company of the Nagas, the original inhabitants of the valley.

...

Regarding the origin of Nāgas, it is stated that they were the progeny of Prajāpati Kaśyapa and his wife Kadrū—the daughter of Dakṣa. The Devas, the Daityas, the Dānavas, the Khaśas, the Bhadras, Garuḍa etc. are also stated to have been the sons of Kaśyapa. Account is given of their enmity with Garuḍa, their chief Vāsuki’s request to Viṣṇu who granted them safety in Satīsara and appointed Nīla as their king, their objection to Kaśyapa’s suggestion of introducing men to Kaśmīra valley after the desiccation of the lake and the death of the evil minded Jalodbhava, Kaśyapa’s curse upon them making them cohabitants of the Piśācas for six months and of the men for other six months of each year, the end of the curse after four aeons, and the permanent occupation of the valley by them jointly with men.

Manvantara refers to “a cosmological time span equal to seventy-one mahāyugas or 306,720,000 years”
Kalpa refers to a “a lifetime of the universe, conventionally equal to 4,320,000,000 years”,
Yojana refers to "a unit of distance, probably somewhere between five and ten kilometres".
sources: https://hi.wikibooks.org/wiki/संस्कृत_के_तकनीकी_शब्द

Given the above data, this gives us a nice glimpse into the timeline of the Nagas according to Puranic lore.

Narinder also states the following facts regarding his observations of the Nagas throughout the Nilamata-purana:

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1. Kaśyapa was the common ancestor of the Nāgas, the Piśācas, the Daityas, the Dānavas, the Garuḍas etc.

2. Garuḍa and the Nāgas came to have enmity among themselves. At first Garuḍa suffered at the hands of the Nāgas but later on he got the upper hand and would have destroyed them but for the intervention of Viṣṇu.

3. Being the original occupants of Kaśmīra, the Nāgas did not like the introduction of the Piśācas or the Mānavas into the valley but when the selection was to be made between these two, they preferred the Mānavas to the Piśācas.

4. The relations of the Nāgas with the Piśācas, though not good in the beginning as is indicated by their remark “We shall not live in the company of the terrible Piśācas”, became later on cordial. When Candradeva visited the Nāga king Nīla, the latter was being served by the Piśāca-chief Nikumbha. Nīla also prescribed the worship of Nikumbha and the Piśācas.

5. The Nāga king Nīla was very considerate towards the Mānavas who had come from different parts of the country to inhabit the valley of Kaśmīra. He gave a nice welcome to the old Brāhmaṇa Candradeva and took action against the Nāga Ṣaḍaṅgula to please people of Kaśmīra.

6. With the exception of the hood, there is nothing to indicate the serpent nature of the Nāgas of the Nīlamata. Nowhere is the mention of their poisonous fangs.

7. Some of the Nāga names are similar to those of the epic heroes, others indicate colour or quality while many are unintelligible, probably of non-Aryan origin.

8. Nāga-worship seems to have been the main feature of the religion of the people of Kaśmīra.

These facts refer to the Nāgas as deities and as a people, but we are concerned here with the latter aspect only and have to see whether the tribal character of the Nāgas is proved or not from other sources.

Again, illustrating the difficulty of interpreting the correct meaning of Naga according to the original author's intentions.

Also of interest is the fact that geological observations agree with the assertion made in the Nilamata-purana:

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Whether it was the basin-like shape of the valley of Kaśmīra which suggested this legend or the memory of some old age when the area of Kaśmīra under water was more than what it that is now, was responsible for it, cannot be stated with certainty, but it is interesting to know that the geological observations made in recent times corroborate the assertion made in the Nīlamata.

What follows are results of modern geological observations and references; for example:

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“M.B. Pithawalla in his “Kashmir, Its Geology And Geography”, and G.E.L. Carter in his “Stone Age in Kashmir,” have supported this theory of the prehistoric great lake in Kaśmīra.”

This illustrates that at the very least, the accounts of the Nilamata-purana seem to incorporate scientific facts regarding ancient geology.

So although the Nilamata-purana is an interesting read, I must admit that I don't agree with everything in this particular critical study.

The English translation of the Nilamata-purana itself can be found here: https://archive.org/details/NilamataPuranaVedKumariGhai/page/n3

Edited by Reignite
brackets=edit

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stereologist
21 hours ago, Reignite said:

Ok, apologies for suggesting it :) Well, somebody recently told me it is "poor taste to ask personal information concerning other posters" and I consider my belief to be quite personal, which is why I think it would go off-topic quite fast.

Your thoughts are not what I was referring to. Asking posters for personally identifiable information is not allowed. Don't ask for location, phone number, address, actual names, work place, etc.

The point of these discussions does involve your personal thoughts. That is not PII.

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Reignite
19 hours ago, Trelane said:

Fair enough let's stay on topic then. Can you kindly answer a question I posed to you earlier then?

What evidence can you present that supports your statements. By this I mean what fossil findings or genetic studies can you present that can trace back to the actual existence of flying serpents?

Thanks!:tu: 

Cool :)

As I have already stated, unfortunately, “I cannot prove anything through physical evidence” (yet).

I can however, present evidence of other statements, such as those made in certain ancient literature, regarding even older geological claims, that are verified by modern geological results, as mentioned above.

Edited by Reignite

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jmccr8
On 1/23/2019 at 12:10 PM, lightly said:

Thanks Not A Rockstar,  just from web searching....I'm pretty sure dragon tales would have come home from the Holy Land with the first crusaders.... 1100 's ??        But ,wondering if there were writings or displays before that time.  ?????

YUP, the beliefs are very early...    There are very old tales Worldwide of serpent-like beings and creatures...some of which are Aquatic.

but the creatures we picture as Dragons are maybe more reptilian looking than serpent looking.  ?

Hi Lightly

 I have these links and it would seem that there have been myths for several thousands of years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon

https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/254/what-is-the-earliest-known-dragon-myth

jmccr8

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lightly
On January 27, 2019 at 8:29 PM, jmccr8 said:

Hi Lightly

 I have these links and it would seem that there have been myths for several thousands of years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon

https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/254/what-is-the-earliest-known-dragon-myth

jmccr8

Howdy j ,   Thanks a lot... Very informative.  Yup,. It seems "Dragons" have been part of human lore, in places,  for thousands of years...with our more familiar Euopean version being popularized in the Middle Ages.   

I'm thinking "dragons" developed mostly from sharing the earth with Snakes ,and other creatures, more so than the old stand by dino bone idea.   "Dragons" developed in many parts of the world where Dinosaurs never existed....although the stories may have traveled there .....   Anyway,  it's just an interesting subject...ain't it ?  :0 )

 

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