Think The Ancient Serpent Gods really existed

[Carnoferox]

7 minutes ago, lightly said:

The interesting thing to me is the fact that in the old and new world the stories were similar in that the serpents were Gigantic...and Flew.     Might it be that the idea (and possibly other ideas) was old enough to have traveled from the old world to the new world with  immigrants ?      .... Why not ?   Some ideas are very very old and enduring.   People didn't come to the new world empty headed...they brought already ancient beliefs with them ?

Or the ideas arose independently because snakes and other reptiles can be found commonly across all continents except Antarctica. I don't know why this concept is so hard for some to grasp.

Edited January 15, 2019 by Carnoferox

[Trelane]

4 hours ago, Reignite said:

Why should i provide "physical" evidence? When did I make any claim? Can you provide physical evidence that such creatures never existed? No. That's why I'm saying that there is more evidence pointing to the possibility that they in fact did might have existed. And by "more evidence" I mean those books you presumably do not need to form an opinion regarding a topic that exists only because of such books.

Post #59

 

10 hours ago, Reignite said:

Actually, there is more evidence to suggest they did exist, than actual evidence to suggest they don't. Still, you insist on maintaining a strong conviction to the less obvious; so strong that you wish for others to hear your opinion.

Please let's not play the semantics game. The creatures never existed and that's reality. You simply can't provide definitive proof that such animals ever existed. The ancient tales were created as means to entertain. Some cases to help convey a story, others recounting experiences that involve misidentification of known animals. They were never intended to be taken literally. 

[Guyver]

1 hour ago, Piney said:

The "serpent" in the Garden of Eden was just that. A snake. The Proto-Semites believed he taught the first goddess how to use the plants and animals in the garden then a Hebrews twisted the story around.

The dragon concept came straight from Medieval theologians. 

Are you talking to me or at me?  

Or maybe it didn’t occur to you that you present that way.  Please do share how you know the dragon concept is the product of Medieval theologians.  

[Piney]

2 minutes ago, Guyver said:

Are you talking to me or at me?  

Or maybe it didn’t occur to you that you present that way.  Please do share how you know the dragon concept is the product of Medieval theologians.  

The "Dragon concept as the Devil" Get it right.

Here's a beginner's reading list. When your done with these I have more. 

Martin Luther, Augustine of Hippo, St. Martinus, Peter Albelard, Anselm of Canterbury, Albertus Magnus, Boethius. 

[Guyver]

7 minutes ago, Piney said:

The "Dragon concept as the Devil" Get it right.

Here's a beginner's reading list. When your done with these I have more. 

Martin Luther, Augustine of Hippo, St. Martinus, Peter Albelard, Anselm of Canterbury, Albertus Magnus, Boethius. 

Yeah....IDK....not helpful but thanks anyway.  Nevermind.

[Guyver]

Satan as the dragon, or more specifically the serpent of old....is found in the Apocalypse of John, aka, the Revelation in chapter 20 verse 2 which states, “He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years...”

This writing predates all Medieval theologians.  Unless someone would like to argue that the biblical text itself was changed by Medieval theologians- in which case....I’d like to see some evidence for it.  

[Reignite]

9 hours ago, Essan said:

Russell's teapot

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot

If you want is to provide physical evidence that something that did not exist did not exist, first prove to us that that invisible orange unicorn is not still floating above your house.

I can't prove such thing and neither can you. However, there is no further evidence to suggest such a thing ever floated above anyone's house. There is however, an enormous amount of evidence that serpent-like beings were a common thing.

[Reignite]

7 hours ago, Piney said:

Our mythological creatures were the personification of nature and human nature. The Horned Serpent never lived in a river he was the river. A Wiindigo was what happens when a person contracts prions disease. Thunderers ( they were never birds in our tradition) were made out of lightning. 

Isn't that exactly what I'm suggesting? However, I think such concepts should not have to be confined to merely one type of explanation. It could be symbolic as well as literal, eg., the word naga could refer to a historical tribe, it could refer to a mythological serpent-like race or it could symbolically represent a force of nature; but: it could also refer to two or all of those explanations at the same time. Concepts from ancient Indian philosophy often work that way on multiple levels in their sacred books.

Edited January 15, 2019 by Reignite

[Reignite]

6 hours ago, Trelane said:

Post #59

Please clarify because that post is not made by me?

Quote

Please let's not play the semantics game. The creatures never existed and that's reality. You simply can't provide definitive proof that such animals ever existed. The ancient tales were created as means to entertain. Some cases to help convey a story, others recounting experiences that involve misidentification of known animals. They were never intended to be taken literally. 

Whose reality? It's your reality. Although we are the same in essence, we apparently share a different view on reality. You can't prove they didn't exist either. How do you know why the ancient tales were created? If you think they were created merely to "entertain" than you obviously do not know what you are talking about.

Tell me, what kind of literature incorporating serpent-like beings have you read?

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

10 hours ago, Essan said:

Russell's teapot

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot

If you want is to provide physical evidence that something that did not exist did not exist, first prove to us that that invisible orange unicorn is not still floating above your house.

Now you’re talking arrant nonsense. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Its blue, not orange.

[onlookerofmayhem]

7 minutes ago, Reignite said:

Please clarify because that post is not made by me?

Whose reality? It's your reality. Although we are the same in essence, we apparently share a different view on reality. You can't prove they didn't exist either. How do you know why the ancient tales were created? If you think they were created merely to "entertain" than you obviously do not know what you are talking about.

Tell me, what kind of literature incorporating serpent-like beings have you read?

How does one go about proving something did not exist?

When someone claims anything they have the burden of proof. We have no evidence of dinosaurs, dragons or "serpent people" living with people. We have stories which, in themselves, prove nothing. It's called anecdotal evidence. We DO have plenty of fossils and real reptiles that could be used as a basis of such stories.

We can't tell why exactly people make up tall tales, but that doesn't mean we have to take them literally if they contain aspects that are unsupported by everything we know. 

There is a big difference between possible, plausible and probable.

[Reignite]

1 hour ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

How does one go about proving something did not exist?

Exactly my point. You can't. So how can you claim you know for sure it didn't?

Quote

When someone claims anything they have the burden of proof.

I did not "claim" anything.

Quote

We have no evidence of dinosaurs, dragons or "serpent people" living with people. We have stories which, in themselves, prove nothing. It's called anecdotal evidence. We DO have plenty of fossils and real reptiles that could be used as a basis of such stories.

Some stories weren't created at one point in time simply to entertain some people. They are sacred literature that for thousands of years was passed down generation through generation, in the manner as I have explained above. They were entrusted to selected capable persons only, in order to make sure the knowledge would not get distorted. That is a big difference with "folk legends".

Quote

We can't tell why exactly people make up tall tales, but that doesn't mean we have to take them literally if they contain aspects that are unsupported by everything we know. 

On the contrary, we can tell exactly why those tales came into existence. The reason for their existence is written down in many of such literature. Usually it is for the benefit of mankind or the pursue of some religious motive. Such great care was given to the integrity of these stories in order to pass down the truth of our history; but they also served a purpose for humanity to reflect upon historic events in order to understand, for example, the difference between good and evil, and also to inspire us with the exploits of past heroes. However, this would not work if the stories were found to be based on an unreliably source. For that reason, you will often find at the beginning of stories the historical designation of a place, a time and the name of individuals involved.

Again, what kind of literature incorporating serpent-like beings have you read?

Edited January 15, 2019 by Reignite

[Piney]

9 hours ago, Guyver said:

Satan as the dragon, or more specifically the serpent of old....is found in the Apocalypse of John, aka, the Revelation in chapter 20 verse 2 which states, “He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years...”

You got me on that one. 

[Piney]

4 hours ago, Reignite said:

Isn't that exactly what I'm suggesting? However, I think such concepts should not have to be confined to merely one type of explanation. It could be symbolic as well as literal, eg., the word naga could refer to a historical tribe, it could refer to a mythological serpent-like race or it could symbolically represent a force of nature; but: it could also refer to two or all of those explanations at the same time. Concepts from ancient Indian philosophy often work that way on multiple levels in their sacred books.

You should study some of the reconstructed P.I.E. mythology and the motifs of the Eastern Iranian nomads. It would really interest you. The Greeks also broke off more from the Indo-Aryan/Iranian end of things so there is some comparisons to be made there. 

[Reignite]

1 minute ago, Piney said:

You should study some of the reconstructed P.I.E. mythology and the motifs of the Eastern Iranian nomads. It would really interest you. The Greeks also broke off more from the Indo-Aryan/Iranian end of things so there is some comparisons to be made there. 

I already have and currently am studying that branch. I believe there is more to P.I.E than popular western thought on history would like to admit.

[Piney]

6 minutes ago, Reignite said:

I already have and currently am studying that branch. I believe there is more to P.I.E than popular western thought on history would like to admit.

I've been studying for years how much the Eastern Iranians influenced East Asian culture. But you have to wade through a lot of Turanist (Turkophile) crap. 

[Reignite]

1 minute ago, Piney said:

I've been studying for years how much the Eastern Iranians influenced East Asian culture. But you have to wade through a lot of Turanist (Turkophile) crap. 

Personally, I think there used to a exist a larger nation speaking the P.I.E. language of which the Indian culture is the oldest remaining, most complete and still living tradition. From India spread most knowledge to east Asia, but also into Europe, through migrating tribes or later through invading Arabs.

Wether serpent knowledge and worship was among such migrating knowledges remains subject to debate, but I prefer to think that cultures around the world shared a similair version of the same concept.

[Piney]

6 minutes ago, Reignite said:

Personally, I think there used to a exist a larger nation speaking the P.I.E. language of which the Indian culture is the oldest remaining, most complete and still living tradition. From India spread most knowledge to east Asia, but also into Europe, through migrating tribes or later through invading Arabs.

Genetics and archaeology (the Andronovo Horizon) has determined they originated on the Pontic Caspian Steppe and migrated into India after the "3 way split". The ancient Celtic Culture, Slavic/Baltic Culture and the ancient Vedic one are almost completely the same. Vedic traditions had time to grow, where Celtic and Baltic ones were overrun by Christianity. 

Baltic traditions have remained and they make a good comparison. They were not forcefully Christianized until the 1400s and not completely in the countryside. They actually revived their paganism. 

[openozy]

1 hour ago, Piney said:

Genetics and archaeology (the Andronovo Horizon) has determined they originated on the Pontic Caspian Steppe and migrated into India after the "3 way split". The ancient Celtic Culture, Slavic/Baltic Culture and the ancient Vedic one are almost completely the same. Vedic traditions had time to grow, where Celtic and Baltic ones were overrun by Christianity. 

Baltic traditions have remained and they make a good comparison. They were not forcefully Christianized until the 1400s and not completely in the countryside. They actually revived their paganism. 

Least educated?WTF.I'll never mess with your people.

[Piney]

14 minutes ago, openozy said:

Least educated?WTF.I'll never mess with your people.

Who ever said we were the "least educated"? 

.

[Trelane]

6 hours ago, Reignite said:

Please clarify because that post is not made by me?

Whose reality? It's your reality. Although we are the same in essence, we apparently share a different view on reality. You can't prove they didn't exist either. How do you know why the ancient tales were created? If you think they were created merely to "entertain" than you obviously do not know what you are talking about.

Tell me, what kind of literature incorporating serpent-like beings have you read?

Please answer the first question I asked. I won't engage in a pointless argument with you or allow you to try and re-direct through your own pointless questions.

Answer the question, what verifiable evidence can you point to that the creatures existed?

[Reignite]

30 minutes ago, Trelane said:

Please answer the first question I asked. I won't engage in a pointless argument with you or allow you to try and re-direct through your own pointless questions.

Answer the question, what verifiable evidence can you point to that the creatures existed?

Your first question contained the word "physical", but now it contains "verifiable". What's it gonna be? Either way, by answering one or the other, I'm going to repeat myself, so by your own request (or rather, ‘command’), I won't repeat myself again.

If it is so pointless, than why even bother going into discussion with me? It feels more like you're in a clutch with your own thoughts.

[Reignite]

2 hours ago, Piney said:

Genetics and archaeology (the Andronovo Horizon) has determined they originated on the Pontic Caspian Steppe and migrated into India after the "3 way split". The ancient Celtic Culture, Slavic/Baltic Culture and the ancient Vedic one are almost completely the same. Vedic traditions had time to grow, where Celtic and Baltic ones were overrun by Christianity. 

Baltic traditions have remained and they make a good comparison. They were not forcefully Christianized until the 1400s and not completely in the countryside. They actually revived their paganism. 

That is what I believe as well. The Baltic tradition is somewhat out of my league, but I do know the Lithuanian and Latvian langue still closely resembles Sanskrit in so many ways. I did not know they revived their paganism.

Can you imagine what knowledge regarding our history would have remained, would Europe and India not have been so forecfull christianized and muslimized?

[lightly]

14 hours ago, Carnoferox said:

Or the ideas arose independently because snakes and other reptiles can be found commonly across all continents except Antarctica. I don't know why this concept is so hard for some to grasp.

Your probably right ...  But grasp this.   Are there ,or were there in the past,    any FLYING serpents or reptiles ?  That is the point that makes the intercontinental similarities so interesting   to me.    

The time spans involved are also another feature that weakens my idea of the concept being carried to the new world by immigrants ....I just like to think about possibilities, even remote ones, that make sence   to me.

[Trelane]

1 hour ago, Reignite said:

Your first question contained the word "physical", but now it contains "verifiable". What's it gonna be? Either way, by answering one or the other, I'm going to repeat myself, so by your own request (or rather, ‘command’), I won't repeat myself again.

If it is so pointless, than why even bother going into discussion with me? It feels more like you're in a clutch with your own thoughts.

Ok so you're that kind of person. So to appease your request I would kindly ask for physical evidence. If you fail to have that then I will also accept verifiable evidence.

You won't be repeating yourself because you've provided nothing in the line of what I am asking.

Either way, please answer the question and stop dodging with childish word games.