Trump considers Syria withdrawal

[+and-then]

7 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

If we are in a conflict for total victory, we don't need anyone else. If victory isn't the goal, we don't need to be in an armed conflict in the first place. It's time to end our participation in Obama's reluctant war. 

I can agree with you on this.  It's time to stop trying to do things on the sly and cheap.  If it's important then we damned well ought to do it in resounding fashion and be done with it.  Once the troops have fully withdrawn and left the field to the Syrians, Russians, and Turks, it should take a very short while to see the emphasis shift from ISIS to Israel.  UNLESS Russia has the power to restrain Iran's ambitions.  I don't think they do.  

[+and-then]

23 hours ago, The Caspian Hare said:

Quick, get the fainting couches and the smelling salts.  The neocons are going to need them.

Now tie up John Bolton and stuff him in a broom closet until this happens.

He's never at a loss for words and if he remains silent on this move, I think it could be a sign that this action has deeper strategic meaning than we'd guess at first glance.

[+Hammerclaw]

 

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

11 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Let the incessant internecine conflict in the Levant bleed Russia, not America. The place--despite our best efforts--will go to Hell in a hand basket, with or without us there. Russia wanted to play soldier with the big boys; well, let us let them find out how fun it really is in the long run. 

 

 

https://youtu.be/8qPUJhy0Dz4

 

"incessant internecine conflict".... Will you stop swearing at me.. LOL!!

Very good thrust to your post, Hammer. All these conflicts in the ME that are much closer to Russia and China. Who has to come in and put out the fire...? Uncle Sucker!!!

 

[+Hammerclaw]

Just now, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

"incessant internecine conflict".... Will you stop swearing at me.. LOL!!

Very good thrust to your post, Hammer. All these conflicts in the ME that are much closer to Russia and China. Who has to come in and put out the fire...? Uncle Sucker!!!

 

Give Peace a chance.

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

@Raptor Witness      "....another gift to Russia"

 

No, just another crying lib looking to lay some kind of "blame" for Trump doing what is right for AMERICA.

If Trump nuked Moscow, you'd still be bytching that Trump is owned by Putin. 

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

8 hours ago, bee said:

 

Isn't it more or less understood now that under the New World Order supporting presidents like Obama... 
ISIS was used as a proxy army to destabilize the Middle East and to help create the Sunni / Saudi lead 
Islamic State that would be part of the new geopolitics of the future One World Government.... 

Russia pulled the brakes on that in Syria and we have them to thank that ISIS has not over run the whole
of Syria..... Not sure how Syria and Russia are going to sort the Kurds place out in all this.... but I don't think
they will just leave them to the  wolves.... ? 

 

Bee, IMO, we never went into Syria for the benefit of the Kurds. We went in to fight Syrian troops, thereby helping IS, Al Qaeda, and just by our existence, Kurds.

We're not married to the Kurds.

[+and-then]

6 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Give Peace a chance.

I believe that little ditty is going to be tested in the most intractable conflict on the planet.  Maybe next year, maybe in ten.  But I believe it will come.  And we will see, yet again, that human beings are incapable, long-term, of forgiving, forgetting and moving on unless they have found a common enemy to stand against.  It's pathetic but true.  It does give one the warm fuzzies for a while doesn't it?

[+and-then]

5 minutes ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

@Raptor Witness      "....another gift to Russia"

 

No, just another crying lib looking to lay some kind of "blame" for Trump doing what is right for AMERICA.

If Trump nuked Moscow, you'd still be bytching that Trump is owned by Putin. 

I believe Trump IS doing what he believes is right for America.  I believe he always has done since he's been in that office.  I just think that in this case, it will lead to worse problems for us, just a short piece down the road.  I hope I'm wrong.

[+and-then]

17 minutes ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

We're not married to the Kurds

How about being "married" to our honor as a nation?  How about keeping promises to people who've bled and died with us, sometimes FOR us?  If that isn't a concern any longer then maybe the more practical reasons for keeping promises will appeal.  We may well find we NEED allies in the region in the future and who will we be able to trust?  The insanity of trying to "stay the course" with an ally who is only an ally in name now - Turkey - is disgusting.  Erdogan isn't hiding his agenda or his plans in fulfilling it.  He is an Islamist dictator and he has ambitions to recreate the Ottoman Empire with himself as the Sultan.  Exactly like Putin and his dream of a return to the glorious USSR, with himself at the controls.  

If we allow Erdog to slaughter the Kurds then we will have lost any right to ever preach to anyone again about national honor or truthfulness.  It will be a stain on America that will be real, not like the phony one's people cast at us all the time.

[RoofGardener]

40 minutes ago, and then said:

How about being "married" to our honor as a nation?  How about keeping promises to people who've bled and died with us, sometimes FOR us?  If that isn't a concern any longer then maybe the more practical reasons for keeping promises will appeal.  We may well find we NEED allies in the region in the future and who will we be able to trust?  The insanity of trying to "stay the course" with an ally who is only an ally in name now - Turkey - is disgusting.  Erdogan isn't hiding his agenda or his plans in fulfilling it.  He is an Islamist dictator and he has ambitions to recreate the Ottoman Empire with himself as the Sultan.  Exactly like Putin and his dream of a return to the glorious USSR, with himself at the controls.  

If we allow Erdog to slaughter the Kurds then we will have lost any right to ever preach to anyone again about national honor or truthfulness.  It will be a stain on America that will be real, not like the phony one's people cast at us all the time.

Ummm.. what promises did we make to the Kurds ? 

We fought against a common enemy - ISIS - but I don't believe that US forces and Kurdish forces ever fought "together" ? 

[The Caspian Hare]

So many rationalizations for a perpetual war in Syria ... sorry, but no alliance is permanent and Kurds will now have to get by on their own. Our mission was never to protect the Kurds or promote their independence. The Kurdish groups are also mostly communists of one flavor or another. Some of the ones in Syria are downright Maoist. Not that I particularly care how people administer their own territory, but we can't be naive about them.

Although, a country that lets regular people own any military weapon you can afford can't be all bad in my eyes LOL

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

7 minutes ago, The Caspian Hare said:

So many rationalizations for a perpetual war in Syria ... sorry, but no alliance is permanent and Kurds will now have to get by on their own. Our mission was never to protect the Kurds or promote their independence. The Kurdish groups are also mostly communists of one flavor or another. Some of the ones in Syria are downright Maoist. Not that I particularly care how people administer their own territory, but we can't be naive about them.

Although, a country that lets regular people own any military weapon you can afford can't be all bad in my eyes LOL

Hare, I'm in agreement with you here. But I'd like to draw into what you say here with what @Hammerclaw said earlier,, why the hell aren't the Russians or Chinese protecting the communist Kurds?

[aztek]

17 hours ago, The Caspian Hare said:

Oh good lord, man, Israel Israel Israel. How much has our one-sided support for this little country cost us? How many enemies have they created for us? Iran is two countries away, can't sustain conventional operations at a distance and can only fight through third parties. This isn't the Third Reich here.

I voted for America first, not Israel first. Israel needs to get by without our assistance. And if they intend to do that by turning their neighbors into 'hell on Earth', maybe you need to reevaluate who the real rogue nation is.

you see Israel as a country that we give billions to, i see Israel as a country we use and pay for it.

[aztek]

Just now, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Hare, I'm in agreement with you here. But I'd like to draw into what you say here with what @Hammerclaw said earlier,, why the hell aren't the Russians or Chinese protecting the communist Kurds?

we are not protecting them, we are using them, to destabilize region. it's just their goal is in line with ours.

[The Caspian Hare]

14 minutes ago, aztek said:

you see Israel as a country that we give billions to, i see Israel as a country we use and pay for it.

I think it's they who use us

[aztek]

Just now, The Caspian Hare said:

I think it's they who use us

well they have little choice,  they are surrounded by people that want to kill them, 100x greater in numbers. and some try it almost daily,  they need us a lot more than we need them.

 

Edited December 20, 2018 by aztek

[spartan max2]

This decision seems consistent with Trump's America first slogan 

[+and-then]

3 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Ummm.. what promises did we make to the Kurds ? 

We fought against a common enemy - ISIS - but I don't believe that US forces and Kurdish forces ever fought "together" ? 

https://www.mcclatchydc.com/latest-news/article24436270.html

If you are saying we had no official treaty then that's true.  So as far as you're concerned we owe them nothing, it was just transactional?  You do realize these people, probably thousands of them, are going to be butchered by Erdogan, yes?  And ISIS was not a priority of the Kurds.  The Turks have been their fight from day one.  Repaying them for their assistance by walking away is truly a shameless, deplorable act, IMO.  But that's just me.  I guess it's too old school to expect anything like honor these days.

[aztek]

there is no honor in politics, never been.  politic is direct opposite of honor

[+and-then]

19 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

This decision seems consistent with Trump's America first slogan 

Only superficially.  Bringing the troops home and putting a check on the campaign promises list is the same thing Obama did.  ISIS bloomed shortly afterward.  I'd love to see these wars end as much as anyone.  I've just seen enough of this enemy and its supporters to know that this isn't going to end well.  Not for us, not for anyone.  My guess is that Iran and Russia will move slowly at first, making sure we really have withdrawn.  Then they will consolidate their gains and watch as the Turks remove the "Kurdish problem".  

Iran will then have free range to build highways or even railways to move men and material to Syria and Lebanon.  Israel will have to intercede at some point and then the crap hits the fan in a big way.  Literally, every day that they stay their hand against Iran will cost them more in Israeli lives.  Unless this decision has a lot of coordination with Tel Aviv and it's part of a plan to lure Iran into committing open aggression so they can be hammered, it is going to be seen as one of the great blunders of all time.  The costs will be dreadful and it won't be bad just for Israel.  Syria and Lebanon will swim in blood.  All because he wanted to remove 2000 troops.  SMH...

[+and-then]

1 hour ago, The Caspian Hare said:

So many rationalizations for a perpetual war in Syria ... sorry, but no alliance is permanent and Kurds will now have to get by on their own. Our mission was never to protect the Kurds or promote their independence. The Kurdish groups are also mostly communists of one flavor or another. Some of the ones in Syria are downright Maoist. Not that I particularly care how people administer their own territory, but we can't be naive about them.

Although, a country that lets regular people own any military weapon you can afford can't be all bad in my eyes LOL

Well, they certainly aren't weak or docile.  I'll give them that.  If Trump continues to supply them with weapons then they might just create a blood sponge for the Turks and Russians but the price will be the annihilation of most of their non-combatants.  Maybe it makes me naive or a sucker but I don't believe in cutting people loose to face the music when they've fought and died alongside our guys.  It makes me angry and disgusted.  But that's just me.

[The Caspian Hare]

38 minutes ago, aztek said:

well they have little choice,  they are surrounded by people that want to kill them, 100x greater in numbers. and some try it almost daily,  they need us a lot more than we need them.

 

I don't want any other country controlling our foreign policy, we need to do what is best for us and our interests. I'm sure that between their military overmatch and the inernal weakness of their immediate neighbors they will survive anyway...

[+and-then]

35 minutes ago, aztek said:

well they have little choice,  they are surrounded by people that want to kill them, 100x greater in numbers. and some try it almost daily,  they need us a lot more than we need them.

 

I'll go a step further.  The WORLD needs to understand what happens when they finally get treated like the Kurds and just cut loose someday.  The Democrat party has become consistently anti-Israel and when they next gain the WH, that president might very well cut ties or stop any assistance or resupply.  They can easily do without our military aid but they cannot long remain at peace if they have no friend on the security council at all.  The world will come for them like a bunch of vultures.  The problem for all of us is that these particular vultures have the means to burn down one of the primary oil-producing regions of the world and thereby destroy the global economy.  You see so many people online and in the media that seem eager to put an end to this state.  It's like they cannot see Israel defending itself at all.  It's going to be quite a surprise when the IDF is turned loose on that region and told to do anything that they feel is necessary for the survival of their people.  

[The Caspian Hare]

8 minutes ago, and then said:

Well, they certainly aren't weak or docile.  I'll give them that.  If Trump continues to supply them with weapons then they might just create a blood sponge for the Turks and Russians but the price will be the annihilation of most of their non-combatants.  Maybe it makes me naive or a sucker but I don't believe in cutting people loose to face the music when they've fought and died alongside our guys.  It makes me angry and disgusted.  But that's just me.

Yes it's terrible but that is an invitation for an open-ended commitment. Do we have to stay and protect them for all time? The alliance was always tactical and temporary, they should have been preparing for this.