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spartan max2

U.S is pulling out of middle east, thoughts?

The U.S.A pulling out of the middle east, good or bad?  

39 members have voted

  1. 1. What do you think of the U.S reducing involvement in the middel east?

    • I think it is a good thing
      18
    • I think it is a bad thing
      5
    • I am neutral or unsure if it is good or bad
      5
    • I think it is mostly good, but alittle bad
      6
    • I think it is mostly bad, but alittle good
      3
    • I do not care
      3


289 posts in this topic

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RoofGardener
8 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

How can that be?  If racism is an infringement of the law how can applying the law be fascism?

Because you are not applying the law if you - either individually or as a group - oppress somebody (the nominal 'racist' in the previous discussion). 

Unless the law PERMITS oppression, in which case - congratulations - you are living in a fascist state ! 

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Black Red Devil
11 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Because you are not applying the law if you - either individually or as a group - oppress somebody (the nominal 'racist' in the previous discussion). 

Unless the law PERMITS oppression, in which case - congratulations - you are living in a fascist state ! 

The police enforce the laws individually or in groups, depending on the danger.  So they're fascists for doing so! Interesting, I wonder if anyone has told a couple of my cop friends this.

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and then
16 minutes ago, Black Red Devil said:

The police enforce the laws individually or in groups, depending on the danger.  So they're fascists for doing so! Interesting, I wonder if anyone has told a couple of my cop friends this.

With the current misuse/abuse of the language, I've heard lots of references to cops - or any other authority figures - as Fascists.  It doesn't make it true but I think that's a major sign of our times.  We - all of us - have lost trust in our institutions and don't know who to really believe so we've started substituting groupthink for objective reality.  Consider it a moment.  If you saw a story coming from a trusted U.S. news source today that reported a story about Trump that went totally against what you believed about a topic, would you accept it as real?  Most people - Left or Right - would not.  If, for example, Trump was completely exonerated for any type of collusion/conspiracy with Putin/Russia et.al. about 40% of Americans would never believe it, ever.  If Mueller's report came back with actual, incontrovertible evidence that Trump knowingly conspired with Putin and even attempted to defraud the U.S. public, he would lose a great deal of support.  Not all, but a lot.  My point is that we've entered a time now where we decide what our reality is going to be based on what we believe.  And the worst aspect of that is that we are divided in what that reality SHOULD be.  That way lies danger.

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Black Red Devil
2 hours ago, and then said:

With the current misuse/abuse of the language, I've heard lots of references to cops - or any other authority figures - as Fascists.  It doesn't make it true but I think that's a major sign of our times.  We - all of us - have lost trust in our institutions and don't know who to really believe so we've started substituting groupthink for objective reality.  Consider it a moment.  If you saw a story coming from a trusted U.S. news source today that reported a story about Trump that went totally against what you believed about a topic, would you accept it as real?  Most people - Left or Right - would not.  If, for example, Trump was completely exonerated for any type of collusion/conspiracy with Putin/Russia et.al. about 40% of Americans would never believe it, ever.  If Mueller's report came back with actual, incontrovertible evidence that Trump knowingly conspired with Putin and even attempted to defraud the U.S. public, he would lose a great deal of support.  Not all, but a lot.  My point is that we've entered a time now where we decide what our reality is going to be based on what we believe.  And the worst aspect of that is that we are divided in what that reality SHOULD be.  That way lies danger.

That's a big IF IMO about Trump's allegations but thats just my opinion based on the fact there's a lot of smoke and you know the saying about smoke and fire.  You have diehards in every pack because people have personal interests involved for whatever reason or because of past events that occured to them but I think you need to have a balanced judgement if it's only because someone represents a political Party.  Just because you like the ideology doesn't mean you have to like and stick to all its interpreters at all cost.

Even here on UM, I'm sure many of his initial supporters are starting to get suspicious about him but keep on defending him because of what he promised, but yet hasn't delivered and on top of that they would even forgive him if found guilty, if beforehand he managed to deliver on some of the promises. Worst case scenario would be resorting to violence just because he got the flick.  Nobody is worth such a reaction IMO.

As a wise man once said and an even wiser man who placed it in his Signature, We are each our own devil, and we make this world our hell  :whistle:

Edited by Black Red Devil

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and then
4 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

Worst case scenario would be resorting to violence just because he got the flick.  Nobody is worth such a reaction IMO.

I'm glad you used this example.  I speak only for myself but I believe that there are millions just like me in this country.  Trump supporters may seem like a cult of personality but in truth it isn't blind support of the man.  It is support of the only figure that stands between us and a takeover by the Globalist/Left.  If actual proof were presented that was accepted by those outside the MSM, I would not argue against his Impeachment.  Until such proof is offered, I will never cease my support because the next step down this road is a political  Left so firmly in control of the levers of power that dissenters will be left with no choice but to fight back with all means available.  That is NOT an outcome that I look forward to because I know I'd end up dead or in prison.  That doesn't take a genius to understand but it does seem to baffle people who are so totally sold out to the Leftist agenda.  I believe most of them REALLY believe that everyone else will get in line out of fear of the consequences.  Once they realize their mistake, it will be too late for our nation.

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Black Red Devil
1 hour ago, and then said:

I'm glad you used this example.  I speak only for myself but I believe that there are millions just like me in this country.  Trump supporters may seem like a cult of personality but in truth it isn't blind support of the man.  It is support of the only figure that stands between us and a takeover by the Globalist/Left.  If actual proof were presented that was accepted by those outside the MSM, I would not argue against his Impeachment.  Until such proof is offered, I will never cease my support because the next step down this road is a political  Left so firmly in control of the levers of power that dissenters will be left with no choice but to fight back with all means available.  That is NOT an outcome that I look forward to because I know I'd end up dead or in prison.  That doesn't take a genius to understand but it does seem to baffle people who are so totally sold out to the Leftist agenda.  I believe most of them REALLY believe that everyone else will get in line out of fear of the consequences.  Once they realize their mistake, it will be too late for our nation.

There is no Globalist/Left conspiracy.  I didn't answer your previous post explaining the link between the Left and Globalist because you didn't explain any link. Nothing you mentioned had anything to do with the Left. This Globalist/Left stuff is typical Alex Jones rhetoric BS and if so you should know better than to believe a guy that owned a site renown to be fake news and is now kicked off every major social channel. He's been accused of racism and antisemitism, lying disgustingly about Sandy Hook and who carried on like a pork chop embarrassingly on the BBC and these just a few. In case you missed it (starts at 3:48 but the best part is at the end).

As for the rest of your post, why would you be fighting back with all means available?  Trump has been accused mainly by people that worked for him.  Then you have former FBI Director Comey who was probably the one that tipped the elections in his favor with the Clinton email investigation which turned out to be a fizzer.  Mueller isn't getting paid by Democrats, but just doing his job.  If there are currently 18 investigations on him currently how are the Democrats at fault?  Of course they're going to support investigations into illegality, wouldn't the Republicans do the same?  They were pretty happy to jump on the bandwagon when Comey was investigating Clinton.

Like many political public figures nothing goes unnoticed or is allowed to get swept under the carpet and Trump is no different.  The difference with other former Presidents (except Nixon), their former employees haven't accused them of fraud and illegality.  What else is there, they won't approve funding the wall?  So what, that's their prerogative and little political spiteful games which everyone plays on all sides of the spectrum.  Trump should have built the wall when that blonde bombshell Coulter told him to do so when he still had the House.

Edited by Black Red Devil

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and then
4 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

why would you be fighting back with all means available?  Trump has been accused mainly by people that worked for him. 

I tried to explain that for me, resistance isn't about the man - Trump.  It's about fighting against an agenda that has a design to weaken and then subordinate my country.  The policies of the Left inevitably lead to loss of sovereignty to some world body.  If you reject that claim then that's your right.  I suppose you probably reject the idea that the chaos in Europe is being managed as well.  The acid test for determining whether a political party or movement is tyrannical is the appearance of coercive means to force compliance with an agenda.  In this country, we have always used political discourse and discussion to change minds.  The crowd that is in DC today act like anything goes.  If a person is acting in good faith on his deeply held beliefs then he'll be willing to accept the responsibility for his actions.  I'm perfectly okay with that.

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RoofGardener
13 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

The police enforce the laws individually or in groups, depending on the danger.  So they're fascists for doing so! Interesting, I wonder if anyone has told a couple of my cop friends this.

The police are authorised by government to enforce the law. The law as created by Parliament, with the assent of the people. That is very different from an ad-hoc association deciding to oppress somebody on the basis of their beliefs. 

there is a BIG difference between arrest and oppression. Unless, of course, the laws of the country are inherently oppressive, in which case .... once more.. you are living in a fascist state. 

Actually, it DOES get SLIGHTLY more complex than that. In the UK, we arrest, charge and imprison murderers. Does that mean we oppress murderers ? 

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Black Red Devil
1 hour ago, RoofGardener said:

The police are authorised by government to enforce the law. The law as created by Parliament, with the assent of the people. That is very different from an ad-hoc association deciding to oppress somebody on the basis of their beliefs. 

there is a BIG difference between arrest and oppression. Unless, of course, the laws of the country are inherently oppressive, in which case .... once more.. you are living in a fascist state. 

Actually, it DOES get SLIGHTLY more complex than that. In the UK, we arrest, charge and imprison murderers. Does that mean we oppress murderers ? 

The bottom line is if someones beliefs are offensive and the offense is punishable by law, the police are paid to enforce the law.  None of this is fascism unless the laws fall within a constitution created by a fascist Govt.  I don't believe the UK is a fascist State yet.  Maybe after Brexit when Farage takes charge. :P

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RoofGardener
Just now, Black Red Devil said:

The bottom line is if someones beliefs are offensive and the offense is punishable by law, the police are paid to enforce the law.  None of this is fascism unless the laws fall within a constitution created by a fascist Govt.  I don't believe the UK is a fascist State yet.  Maybe after Brexit when Farage takes charge. :P

Indeed BRD.. the POLICE are paid to enforce THE LAW. Not private 'vigilante' organisations taking unilateral actions based on their internal beliefs. THAT is mob rule with a fascist  philosophy. 

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Black Red Devil
2 hours ago, and then said:

I tried to explain that for me, resistance isn't about the man - Trump.  It's about fighting against an agenda that has a design to weaken and then subordinate my country.  The policies of the Left inevitably lead to loss of sovereignty to some world body.  If you reject that claim then that's your right.  I suppose you probably reject the idea that the chaos in Europe is being managed as well.  The acid test for determining whether a political party or movement is tyrannical is the appearance of coercive means to force compliance with an agenda.  In this country, we have always used political discourse and discussion to change minds.  The crowd that is in DC today act like anything goes.  If a person is acting in good faith on his deeply held beliefs then he'll be willing to accept the responsibility for his actions.  I'm perfectly okay with that.

There have been mistakes with immigration, no doubts about it, but this is more of a Liberal mindset, rather than part of Left ideology.  I don't know what's got you guys hooked on Trump so much.  A billionaire that has never known sacrifices in his life and whose family fortunes were presumably obtained suspiciously can't represent the people IMO, furthermore he's discriminated against most people of creed, color, gender you name it and he's done it, he hasn't achieved any of the electoral promises and has had more investigations into fraud and illegal conduct in two years than Al Capone in his lifetime.  When is enough?

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Earl.Of.Trumps
10 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

Trump should have built the wall when that blonde bombshell Coulter told him to do so when he still had the House.

Very much agreed.  And now, Coulter is really angry at Trump and can be called an anti-Trumper

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and then
On 1/18/2019 at 4:57 AM, Black Red Devil said:

There have been mistakes with immigration, no doubts about it, but this is more of a Liberal mindset, rather than part of Left ideology.  I don't know what's got you guys hooked on Trump so much.  A billionaire that has never known sacrifices in his life and whose family fortunes were presumably obtained suspiciously can't represent the people IMO, furthermore he's discriminated against most people of creed, color, gender you name it and he's done it, he hasn't achieved any of the electoral promises and has had more investigations into fraud and illegal conduct in two years than Al Capone in his lifetime.  When is enough?

 

Maybe when something he's being investigated for is proven?  You know, something other than anonymous sources, innuendo or crimes related to business dealings that occurred long before he announced for the job?  Of all those indictments and pleas by his staff, not a single one had anything to do with the main reason for the investigation.  He wasn't being investigated for having been a crook before he ran for office.  He's being investigated for trying to steal an election with the help of a foreign government and no one has found that smoking gun.  Not even a cold one.  

I'll say it again - a huge part of those who voted for him don't care about the man or his past.  He got my vote because he promised to take the country in a direction other than what Obama had done for 8 years.  After watching the breathtaking, concentrated level of media attacks over the last two years, you'd think rational people would begin to wonder what he has done in office that should lead to such outrage.  The hatred goes beyond political disagreement.  It's a sustained frenzy and I've stopped believing that it will ever end as long as he's president.  If that is the price for delaying a return of control to the Democrat party then I'm ready to let them drone on.  That party now represents people in its leadership who literally hate this country and want it to be weakened or even destroyed.  

Can you actually cite instances where he discriminated against anyone?  I'm not talking about his rhetoric.  What actions has he taken to harm minorities?  It's been two years of "the sky is falling" "Hitler is back" yet I've not seen him sidestep a single Constitutional requirement.  Not one.  Finally, about 45+ million Americans cast votes for him and he carried over 30 States.  That is how we elect our president according to rules set in the Constitution.  Can you really believe that that many Americans of a single party are all either racists, bigots or so uninformed that they'd vote against their own vision for what they and this country needs?  That's a LOT of people, man.  And he received more Hispanic votes than any previous Republican candidate.   Trump is a creation of the Democrat party and the Progressive movement.  He was an answer to their overreach during the 8 years of Obama.  His victory was never supposed to happen and it enraged the Left and their propaganda unit to the point where they decided to go to war against him and anything that stood in their way of bringing him down.  He is a last stand against the Progressive movement that has nearly taken over our government.  When he's gone they think everything will return to business as usual.  I think it more likely that it will signal the beginning of a time similar to Rome at the end of the Republic.  When people have no voice, they resort to other means to be heard, then the whole system breaks down.

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Black Red Devil
6 hours ago, and then said:

Maybe when something he's being investigated for is proven?  You know, something other than anonymous sources, innuendo or crimes related to business dealings that occurred long before he announced for the job?  Of all those indictments and pleas by his staff, not a single one had anything to do with the main reason for the investigation.  He wasn't being investigated for having been a crook before he ran for office.  He's being investigated for trying to steal an election with the help of a foreign government and no one has found that smoking gun.  Not even a cold one.  

I'll say it again - a huge part of those who voted for him don't care about the man or his past.  He got my vote because he promised to take the country in a direction other than what Obama had done for 8 years.  After watching the breathtaking, concentrated level of media attacks over the last two years, you'd think rational people would begin to wonder what he has done in office that should lead to such outrage.  The hatred goes beyond political disagreement.  It's a sustained frenzy and I've stopped believing that it will ever end as long as he's president.  If that is the price for delaying a return of control to the Democrat party then I'm ready to let them drone on.  That party now represents people in its leadership who literally hate this country and want it to be weakened or even destroyed.  

Can you actually cite instances where he discriminated against anyone?  I'm not talking about his rhetoric.  What actions has he taken to harm minorities?  It's been two years of "the sky is falling" "Hitler is back" yet I've not seen him sidestep a single Constitutional requirement.  Not one.  Finally, about 45+ million Americans cast votes for him and he carried over 30 States.  That is how we elect our president according to rules set in the Constitution.  Can you really believe that that many Americans of a single party are all either racists, bigots or so uninformed that they'd vote against their own vision for what they and this country needs?  That's a LOT of people, man.  And he received more Hispanic votes than any previous Republican candidate.   Trump is a creation of the Democrat party and the Progressive movement.  He was an answer to their overreach during the 8 years of Obama.  His victory was never supposed to happen and it enraged the Left and their propaganda unit to the point where they decided to go to war against him and anything that stood in their way of bringing him down.  He is a last stand against the Progressive movement that has nearly taken over our government.  When he's gone they think everything will return to business as usual.  I think it more likely that it will signal the beginning of a time similar to Rome at the end of the Republic.  When people have no voice, they resort to other means to be heard, then the whole system breaks down.

In fact, the part where many of his faithfuls don't care about his past should be the most worrying part for your society.  The POTUS is the highest representative of your nation, similar to our Prime Minister and most, if not all, countries where Democratically elected candidates are selected to honor and protect the Constitution and Rights of all its citizens.  As far as I'm aware Russia is still the main adversary of our western world, militarily and maybe less these days, ideologically, of which and I'm sure you'll agree, the US is it's main leader or at least it was supposed to be until Trump came along.  I'm sure you'll also agree that a person in such a position cannot have suspicious interlocutory business affairs with its country's and regions main rival. Nothing wrong doing your business with Russia as a private citizen but then be ready to be questioned if you take up the job as POTUS in our current lifetime.  You say there is no smoking gun, but there are several witnesses that worked for him. Then you have the almost certain Russian hacking scandal, the disregard for long term NATO ally agreement and negative attitude towards the EU and Pacific ally agreements.  Wanting to pull out of Syria, a Russian ally, which even hardline Republicans couldn't accept.  All things that make it very hard to ignore there is a suspiciously deceitful conduct that seems to favor Russian political agendas.  Forget being a Republican or Democrat, as a citizen wouldn't you want to know if your President is/was mingled up with your main political foe? How can you say you don't care about his past and blame the opposition for looking into it deeper?  Think outside the box, were you prepared to ignore the allegations against Obama when he was accused of being a Muslim Brotherhood sympathiser?

For the second part I highlighted, don't you think rhetoric is enough from a person representative in his position no matter what ways of communication he uses?  Words sometimes go deeper than actions and are just as harmful, especially when said by a person that's sworn into the Constitution to represent ALL its citizens. 

If he was squeaky clean, there wouldn't be 18 investigations on him, no matter how angry the Democrats are in having lost the elections.  If there are 18 investigations on him, it's not the Democrats fault and the FBI are doing what they think is best for their nation, a nation that has promoted and is the most representative of western values in the world in modern times.  They're investigating their main political leader who seems to be betraying those western values.

Edited by Black Red Devil

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