Not Sure What Is Happening

[XenoFish]

1 minute ago, ouija ouija said:

In BOLD above: That's faulty reasoning. Why does the fact that it is possible, automatically mean that millions of people can do it?  Perhaps it is a very rare phenomenon that only happens when a particular set of circumstances are in place.

I've already posted a link explaining why it's near impossible. Plus the amount of energy would literally kill a human. 

[+ouija ouija]

47 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

If I took ever experience I had during my occult days as fact, I'd be nuttier than a planters p-nut factory. 

Once again, Xeno, I have to remind you that you are not the centre of the Universe. Many people have had experiences that you have not. Just because you have not experienced something doesn't mean others haven't. (God! I am so tired of saying that).

[spud the mackem]

11 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

Well my consideration of the so-called paranormal has honestly lead me to believe these things can and have occurred whether current science understands it or not. 

I'm sorry but if you believe this,  that's your opinion which is what you believe , ok. I do not wish to even try to change your mind , keep believing . my opinion is that it is not humanly possible and that's not changing , but I do believe in paranormal events , that's why I'm a member here , as things have happened to me that I cannot explain. Best wishes 

[+ouija ouija]

On 1/3/2019 at 5:40 PM, XenoFish said:

Teleportation isn't likely.

Couldn't get into this without agreeing to all sorts of nonsense, which I'm not prepared to do. Perhaps teleportation can happen in a way not described in the link.

[acute]

55 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

If I took ever experience I had during my occult days as fact, I'd be nuttier than a planters p-nut factory. 

No comment.

[XenoFish]

15 minutes ago, ouija ouija said:

Once again, Xeno, I have to remind you that you are not the centre of the Universe. Many people have had experiences that you have not. Just because you have not experienced something doesn't mean others haven't. (God! I am so tired of saying that).

Then quit saying. I've had my own paranormal experiences, I was once a believer. Till a little investigation showed the flaws in my beliefs. I wish a lot of supernatural and paranormal were real. Then I wouldn't feel like I had wasted a little over 20 years of my life and could quit being afraid that I am schizo. Because I've seen, felt, and sensed spirits. Felt the impression left in places. I could call myself psychic, but I'm not that self absorbed. You have no idea of what I've done, deals and pacts. Vows I've taken. The sheer amount of results I got. Even now, in my anger I feel the pull back. You just like George and acute have no idea what I have at stake with all this. As for the universe revolving around me. I am my own microcosmos, we all are. 

Edited January 4, 2019 by XenoFish

[spud the mackem]

The lady who set up this thread came back twice on the first page and has not been back since so I reckon she set it up deliberately to get people to argue for or against . I shall not bother to comment further as its a waste of my time.

[zep73]

1 hour ago, papageorge1 said:

Just to add, many on my side of the fence (who think some cases can indeed be paranormal), take note that certain hard-core members have never once suggested the possibility of a paranormal explanation for any of these cases. To quote your last sentence: 'Every single time!'. To me, THEY are the ones truly without balanced thinking and I believe their egos (developed through repeated debating) have left them not as honest skeptics but simply vehement anti-paranormalists.

Maybe that is because Occam's Razor proves them right every time.

What we need, to call an event paranormal, is evidence and a lack of natural causes. So when all events can be explained naturally, Occam's Razor says that they all are natural.

We don't dismiss for the sake of dismissing. We dismiss because it is dismissable.

[papageorge1]

1 hour ago, spud the mackem said:

I'm sorry but if you believe this,  that's your opinion which is what you believe , ok. I do not wish to even try to change your mind , keep believing . my opinion is that it is not humanly possible and that's not changing , but I do believe in paranormal events , that's why I'm a member here , as things have happened to me that I cannot explain. Best wishes 

You are right that we are OK to disagree. Personally, I have heard enough to believe teleportation exists and people with occult knowledge that I respect explain the general mechanisms involved too.

[XenoFish]

6 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

people with occult knowledge that I respect explain the general mechanisms involved too.

Since I believe nothing you say. Citations are required. Who are these people and what exactly did they say? 

[+ouija ouija]

1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

Then quit saying. I've had my own paranormal experiences, I was once a believer. Till a little investigation showed the flaws in my beliefs. I wish a lot of supernatural and paranormal were real. Then I wouldn't feel like I had wasted a little over 20 years of my life and could quit being afraid that I am schizo. Because I've seen, felt, and sensed spirits. Felt the impression left in places. I could call myself psychic, but I'm not that self absorbed. You have no idea of what I've done, deals and pacts. Vows I've taken. The sheer amount of results I got. Even now, in my anger I feel the pull back. You just like George and acute have no idea what I have at stake with all this. As for the universe revolving around me. I am my own microcosmos, we all are. 

You're missing the point, AGAIN!! Take your mind off yourself and your experiences for a moment and ponder on the possibility, the likelihood that other people have experienced things that you haven't. Why is it so hard for you to entertain that possibility? Exactly why are you so scathing of other people's experiences? Just because you were wrong in your beliefs doesn't mean that everyone else is wrong in theirs. (And I'm here to tell you that actually, you are self absorbed ..... you are the most self absorbed person at UM. I'm saying that to try and help you. You make yourself so miserable).

20yrs is an awful long time to be fooling yourself or was pride preventing you from giving up? Did you think you would look foolish in front of others if you admitted your beliefs were flawed? One way or another, you need to come to terms with those 20 wasted years .... put them down to experience .... and move on! 'That was then, this is now'. Enjoy your life. Enjoy other people(and their varied experiences).

1 hour ago, spud the mackem said:

The lady who set up this thread came back twice on the first page and has not been back since so I reckon she set it up deliberately to get people to argue for or against . I shall not bother to comment further as its a waste of my time.

She was here yesterday so may still come back again. Perhaps she got fed up with all the squabbling.

56 minutes ago, sci-nerd said:

Maybe that is because Occam's Razor proves them right every time.

What we need, to call an event paranormal, is evidence and a lack of natural causes. So when all events can be explained naturally, Occam's Razor says that they all are natural.

We don't dismiss for the sake of dismissing. We dismiss because it is dismissable.

"Occam's Razor proves them right every time"! 'Every time'? Why can't you be accurate and honest and say 'Often Occam's Razor proves them right'? You're another one who loses credibility by making such obviously incorrect statements.

[papageorge1]

1 hour ago, sci-nerd said:

Maybe that is because Occam's Razor proves them right every time.

What we need, to call an event paranormal, is evidence and a lack of natural causes. So when all events can be explained naturally, Occam's Razor says that they all are natural.

We don't dismiss for the sake of dismissing. We dismiss because it is dismissable.

Well, I have beyond doubt seen enough to believe that dramatic  events occur not explainable through existing knowledge.

I follow the model of reality presented by Vedic and western esoteric traditions better explain the full reality than materialist-based science.

Actually, I’m good with science only moving slowly with what can be physically proved. But not being a follower of scientism, I learn from and respect other wisdom traditions also. 

[zep73]

5 minutes ago, ouija ouija said:

"Occam's Razor proves them right every time"! 'Every time'? Why can't you be accurate and honest and say 'Often Occam's Razor proves them right'? You're another one who loses credibility by making such obviously incorrect statements.

I can only speak for the time I've been here. 6 or 7 months. In that time I have only observed stories that can be explained naturally.

[XenoFish]

1 minute ago, ouija ouija said:

You're missing the point, AGAIN!! Take your mind off yourself and your experiences for a moment and ponder on the possibility, the likelihood that other people have experienced things that you haven't. Why is it so hard for you to entertain that possibility? Exactly why are you so scathing of other people's experiences? Just because you were wrong in your beliefs doesn't mean that everyone else is wrong in theirs. (And I'm here to tell you that actually, you are self absorbed ..... you are the most self absorbed person at UM. I'm saying that to try and help you. You make yourself so miserable).

20yrs is an awful long time to be fooling yourself or was pride preventing you from giving up? Did you think you would look foolish in front of others if you admitted your beliefs were flawed? One way or another, you need to come to terms with those 20 wasted years .... put them down to experience .... and move on! 'That was then, this is now'. Enjoy your life. Enjoy other people(and their varied experiences).

Curiosity and belief drove those years. A vain hope that my grandfather went off to an afterlife that the afterlife in fact existed. Evidence was purely subjective with no objective validation and near impossible repeatably. I have stepped outside of my own experience and contemplated a lot of things. Teleportation is not physically possible. Placing your mind somewhere, even billions of light years away is. But you are not there. You are in a place that you imagine that may or may not be exact. Mentally I can place myself near a black light star that shines upon a neon lit world, does that star exist, does that planet exist. To say yes would require proof, to say no is to admit it is imagined, on an entirely subjectively level that star and that planet are real. Yet no objective evidence. Someone teleporting would require them to collapse a single point in space (black hole) and then somehow reappear in a new location (wormhole). If they are generating a black hole, what would happen? 

Your opinion of me doesn't matter and I accept that I wasted a lot of time and I learned how easy it is to trick ourselves. How we can program our minds through beliefs, but the thing is, that hardly anyone who believes in the supernatural or paranormal is all that grounded in reality. When the first thing out of someone's mouth is "it's a demon", you really have to question them. How many believer actually put their beliefs to the test? How many believe without actual experience? 

In the case of this thread there are obvious signs that the OP might have a serious health issue, blackout and missing time are not good. Suggesting alien abduction is just absurd. 

[zep73]

8 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

Well, I have beyond doubt seen enough to believe that dramatic  events occur not explainable through existing knowledge.

If we just had the evidence. But we don't. And we can't build models of reality on testimonies. That is what religion does.

[XenoFish]

1 minute ago, sci-nerd said:

If we just had the evidence. But we don't. And we can't build models of reality on testimonies. That is what religion does.

You can't believe stories because people misremember, exaggerate,and flat out make stuff up. Lack of evidence is just that a lack. If something changes, if there is objective evidence of the paranormal/supernatural. Something that factual proves ghost and psychic abilities actually exist. Then this would be a none issue. But the things is all psi research is pretty much trash. The results are done through poor testing and they fudge a lot of them to get funding. This whole things is basically "Show me the body."

[papageorge1]

19 minutes ago, sci-nerd said:

If we just had the evidence. But we don't. And we can't build models of reality on testimonies. That is what religion does.

I agree that is how science must work. It is based on the physical senses and instruments. 

I have come to believe there are those that can learn about reality through so-called psychic insight and can tell us things. It is not an ‘exact’ science but I am convinced it tells us real things about places science can yet go.

 

[XenoFish]

23 minutes ago, ouija ouija said:

Exactly why are you so scathing of other people's experiences? Just because you were wrong in your beliefs doesn't mean that everyone else is wrong in theirs. (And I'm here to tell you that actually, you are self absorbed ..... you are the most self absorbed person at UM. I'm saying that to try and help you. You make yourself so miserable).

I am going to make something very clear to you. I wasn't wrong in my beliefs. I acknowledge and accept the entirely subjective (personal) nature of them. And that's the kicker. I've seen ghost, shadows darting around, felt things. Dreams of angels, demons, and different gods. All of that subjective. All of that a personal experience. Tell me a ghost story, fine. Recount a weird experience, no problem. That cold shiver down my spine as I called upon the dead, nothing beats that. Then thinking about something I'd like, a fleeting wish or desire, life meets me in the middle with it and sometimes weird things just happen. The problem though is objective proof. All of those things I mention, happened. Yet, I don't tell any more my stories really. Why, because I'd need evidence. I'd need proof and I have none. I have a lot of trouble accepting something without some thing to back it. Seeing my dead grandfather the day after his funeral. I can't prove that. Calling upon the wind during a hot summer day and getting it, I can't prove that. Thinking to myself about something that I want and having it happen, I can't prove that. I can't prove that I bi-located, the few times I supposedly did. Who would believe me if I told everyone that I appeared in my mothers hows and a my work before I walked in the front door? No one. Even telling folk that my wife saw me standing in the front door of the bedroom when I was fast asleep. Who would believe that? 

How about how for a month I couldn't get near her car. Because it would crank up and if I stepped a few feet back it was fine. Who would believe that? How about I tell everyone about how I saw a luminous green form go into my closet an point at the circuit breaker when I was 11 years old. Two week later and after we'd moved the place caught on fire. Who would believe that? 

These things happened to me. Luck was on my side. Many, many times. The only thing that is keeping me for 100% dismissing everything is that vow I took and the results of it. I can not resolve that with no amount of skepticism. 

But to state things as Fact, require proof, it requires evidence. Anyone can tell a story about something weird that has happened. It's not self-absorption dear. It's more self-hate than anything. 

[zep73]

5 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

I agree that is how science must work. It is based on the physical senses and instruments. 

I have come to believe there are those that can learn about reality through so-called psychic insight and can tell us things. It is not an ‘exact’ science but I am convinced it tells us real things about places science can yet go.

The only version of reality that could contain the paranormal, but never ever with evidence, is a simulated virtual reality, where the operators interfere for fun. And their only rule of engagement is: Leave no trace.

I am not convinced that it is so, but it's the only theory that makes sense - IF peoples experiences are true (or at least some of them).

[papageorge1]

24 minutes ago, sci-nerd said:

The only version of reality that could contain the paranormal, but never ever with evidence, is a simulated virtual reality, where the operators interfere for fun. And their only rule of engagement is: Leave no trace.

I am not convinced that it is so, but it's the only theory that makes sense - IF peoples experiences are true (or at least some of them).

The model I subscribe to is that there are realms of reality in dimensions  beyond our familiar three an at vibratory rates beyond our direct detection (perhaps the misnamed ‘dark matter’??).

 

[zep73]

6 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

The model I subscribe to is that there are realms of reality in dimensions  beyond our familiar three an at vibratory rates beyond our direct detection (perhaps the misnamed ‘dark matter’??).

You should study dimensions and dark matter, before you take them into account. They are not at all what you think.

I have seen many "believers" use dimensions as some sort of scientific reference to explain the paranormal, but it is clear that they haven't understood what they are and how they work.

[papageorge1]

14 minutes ago, sci-nerd said:

You should study dimensions and dark matter, before you take them into account. They are not at all what you think.

I have seen many "believers" use dimensions as some sort of scientific reference to explain the paranormal, but it is clear that they haven't understood what they are and how they work.

Well, I am not the creator of this theory I subscribe to. It is created by those eastern and western masters that I have come to respect as having delved deepest into reality beyond the three-dimensional physical senses. 

[zep73]

21 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

Well, I am not the creator of this theory I subscribe to. It is created by those eastern and western masters that I have come to respect as having delved deepest into reality beyond the three-dimensional physical senses. 

Let me give you a few hints: There are no evidences of other dimensions. They are all mathematical constructs. Even 2D is mathematical. There is nothing 2D in this universe.
Higher dimensions are used in string theory, but string theory itself is also only a mathematical construct.

Math allows for lost information to be retrieved. Reversed destruction. That shows how unpractical math sometimes is. Just because you can calculate it, does not make it real.

Edit: I should have added that string theory operates in the quantum world. Not in our normal macro world.

Edited January 4, 2019 by sci-nerd

[+ouija ouija]

 

 

1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

I am going to make something very clear to you. I wasn't wrong in my beliefs. I acknowledge and accept the entirely subjective (personal) nature of them. And that's the kicker. I've seen ghost, shadows darting around, felt things. Dreams of angels, demons, and different gods. All of that subjective. All of that a personal experience. Tell me a ghost story, fine. Recount a weird experience, no problem. That cold shiver down my spine as I called upon the dead, nothing beats that. Then thinking about something I'd like, a fleeting wish or desire, life meets me in the middle with it and sometimes weird things just happen. The problem though is objective proof. All of those things I mention, happened. Yet, I don't tell any more my stories really. Why, because I'd need evidence. I'd need proof and I have none. I have a lot of trouble accepting something without something to back it. Seeing my dead grandfather the day after his funeral. I can't prove that. Calling upon the wind during a hot summer day and getting it, I can't prove that. Thinking to myself about something that I want and having it happen, I can't prove that. I can't prove that I bi-located, the few times I supposedly did. Who would believe me if I told everyone that I appeared in my mothers hows and a my work before I walked in the front door? No one. Even telling folk that my wife saw me standing in the front door of the bedroom when I was fast asleep. Who would believe that? 

How about how for a month I couldn't get near her car. Because it would crank up and if I stepped a few feet back it was fine. Who would believe that? How about I tell everyone about how I saw a luminous green form go into my closet an point at the circuit breaker when I was 11 years old. Two week later and after we'd moved the place caught on fire. Who would believe that? 

These things happened to me. Luck was on my side. Many, many times. The only thing that is keeping me for 100% dismissing everything is that vow I took and the results of it. I can not resolve that with no amount of skepticism. 

But to state things as Fact, require proof, it requires evidence. Anyone can tell a story about something weird that has happened. It's not self-absorption dear. It's more self-hate than anything. 

Make your mind up! "I wasn't wrong in my beliefs"(above), "the flaws in my beliefs"(below) ..... which is it? Were your beliefs right/true or were they flawed/wrong? ^ ^ I understand from what you have written in the post above, that you believe the experiences you've had were real and genuine but not proveable, yet still to this day you accept them as true. Why do you not acknowledge that with regard to other people's experiences?!!  Why do you 'bash' other's for being unable to prove their experiences? Hypocritical, or what? Because that is what you 'skeptics' seem to spend so much time doing here. Where is the acknowledgement that just because something cannot be proved, doesn't mean it isn't true ...... and then leave things at that?! That acknowledgement doesn't mean that you necessarily believe what the poster says they have experienced, it's completely neutral. 

I think it's arrogant and cowardly of you to avoid speaking of your experiences(except when you want browbeat someone into silence!), because you're afraid the skeptics will pile in and scream 'prove it! Prove it!' . You say 'I have a lot of trouble accepting something without something to back it' and yet you are accepting of your own experiences. Wouldn't the mature thing be, with regard to others, to remain neutral? 

[papageorge1]

1 hour ago, sci-nerd said:

Let me give you a few hints: There are no evidences of other dimensions. They are all mathematical constructs. Even 2D is mathematical. There is nothing 2D in this universe.
Higher dimensions are used in string theory, but string theory itself is also only a mathematical construct.

Math allows for lost information to be retrieved. Reversed destruction. That shows how unpractical math sometimes is. Just because you can calculate it, does not make it real.

Edit: I should have added that string theory operates in the quantum world. Not in our normal macro world.

All that best theoretical understanding at this time is fine for science conjecturing about the universe.

But I am talking about Masters speaking from direct experience of that beyond our physical senses. We are more than physical and can experience more than the physical. We can know things where science at this time can’t go.

 

Edited January 4, 2019 by papageorge1