Smiley Face Murders

[Imaginarynumber1]

3 minutes ago, Vincennes said:

Well you need to call the CPD and all of the news channels and let them know you're opinion.  It will save them a lot of investigative time.  

I work with CPD every night. They are well aware. My point is that it is not uncommon for people to get themselves killed in strange ways and sometimes not be found for extended periods of time. No mysterious group of serial killers needed.

[Vincennes]

26 minutes ago, Imaginarynumber1 said:

I work with CPD every night. They are well aware. My point is that it is not uncommon for people to get themselves killed in strange ways and sometimes not be found for extended periods of time. No mysterious group of serial killers needed.

You work with the CPD every night ?  I really hope this isn't true because you sound exactly like the type who insists all missing people/kids run aways for the first 48 hours.  "Why look for them, they usually come home on their own.  Happens all the time."  

My point was that these two cases have very similar aspects to those described in the Smiley documentary and they DO !  

[Imaginarynumber1]

7 minutes ago, Vincennes said:

You work with the CPD every night ?  I really hope this isn't true because you sound exactly like the type who insists all missing people/kids run aways for the first 48 hours.  "Why look for them, they usually come home on their own.  Happens all the time."  

I never once said, nor implied that.

7 minutes ago, Vincennes said:

My point was that these two cases have very similar aspects to those described in the Smiley documentary and they DO !  

You can make any disappearance sound like it fits,  especially when you dont have a body 

There was a guy dissapeared mysteriously on 4th of July in 05, on his way way home from a party. For nine years his body sat in his car in a retention pond in a very well traveled area. No group of killers needed. 

Speaking of 4th of July, just last year a guy sat dead in his car of an OD in the middle of a Kroger parking lot for an entire week before he was found on the 4th. 

People like a good mystery, I get it. But the truth is often far more mundane. 

[Regi]

20 hours ago, skliss said:

 1st guy arrives back at hotel at 4 am and sees Brian is missing. 

Yes, and by then, he hadn't even seen Brian for the better part of two hours.

[skliss]

7 hours ago, Regi said:

Yes, and by then, he hadn't even seen Brian for the better part of two hours.

Right....Brian disappears....that's what this is all about .... not sure what point you are trying to make.

[Regi]

1 hour ago, skliss said:

Right....Brian disappears....that's what this is all about .... not sure what point you are trying to make.

My point is that he wasn't there when Brian "disappeared".

[skliss]

15 hours ago, Regi said:

My point is that he wasn't there when Brian "disappeared".

And? No one was or Brian would still be around. Same with the others. If anyone was with them they would still be here. I'm not sure what that has to do with not believing these are crimes and not accidents. Are you saying he didn't disappear? He was shooed off the property by the doorman and never seen again until his body was found. Obviously what they found out about his case was enough to have it reopened. 

[Regi]

On 2/16/2019 at 12:30 PM, skliss said:

He was shooed off the property by the doorman and never seen again until his body was found.

That's another circumstance that wasn't clear to me; From what little I could read from the police report re: his statements, I don't think it's that the doorman wouldn't let him in, I think it's that he didn't know Brian was a guest.

[skliss]

19 minutes ago, Regi said:

That's another circumstance that wasn't clear to me; From what little I could read from the police report re: his statements, I don't think it's that the doorman wouldn't let him in, I think it's that he didn't know Brian was a guest.

I agree with that, I think by that point Brian was so incoherent he couldn't have expressed that he was a guest. Another clue that confirms he couldn't have crossed 10 lanes of traffic with a huge barrier in the middle, then another highway, climb over a chain link fence and still would have had to make his way down to the river. All with no witnesses seeing him do that. Add on top the river temp and flow speed showing it would have taken only 36 hours to reach the beach where he was found plus lack of decomp in Brian says he couldn't have been in the water 77 days.

[Imaginarynumber1]

4 minutes ago, skliss said:

I agree with that, I think by that point Brian was so incoherent he couldn't have expressed that he was a guest. Another clue that confirms he couldn't have crossed 10 lanes of traffic with a huge barrier in the middle, then another highway, climb over a chain link fence and still would have had to make his way down to the river. All with no witnesses seeing him do that. Add on top the river temp and flow speed showing it would have taken only 36 hours to reach the beach where he was found plus lack of decomp in Brian says he couldn't have been in the water 77 days.

I'm not familiar with the case you are speaking of, but , having some experience in both areas, I will tell you that a drunk man can and will do things you would consider impossible. Conversely, if some had been the water 77 days, EVERYONE would know, especially those doing the autopsy.

[Regi]

5 minutes ago, skliss said:

I agree with that, I think by that point Brian was so incoherent he couldn't have expressed that he was a guest.

Well, my point was that the friend said that the doorman wouldn't let him in because he was sick, but that's not accurate is it?

[Regi]

^ For me, it's a conclusion for which I don't understand the basis.

At this point, it appears to me it was offered as justification for those three guys Brian was with having left him sick and outside in the cold.

In other words, I'm unaware of any facts which support that conclusion.

Edited February 21, 2019 by Regi

[Vincennes]

 

One thing that bothered me is that I had the impression that when they left the bar they left it in a car.  I didn't hear anyone mention walking until after they were at the hotel and Brian was left outside.   Needless to say that would mean the killer followed them in a car to the hotel.  Anyone else have that impression ?

I also thought it was odd that if Brian crossed that roadway, climbed the fence and the side barricade that no one ever reported seeing him do it.  That road is non-stop 24 hours a day.  It would also be such an oddity for a crossing, I think if he did that someone would remember seeing him.  

[Regi]

1 hour ago, Vincennes said:

One thing that bothered me is that I had the impression that when they left the bar they left it in a car.

This is what I'm sayin', it isn't clear! 20 Years later and we aren't presented with a clear and accurate picture!

Anyway, it sounded to me as though some of the guys took a car to the bar, while others took a cab, and then after the bar closed, Brian and three of the guys went back to the hotel in the car, while the friend (Nick's his name) and some other guy went elsewhere in a cab, although, it wasn't clear to me whether those two arrived back at the hotel in a cab or had walked back. 

Edited February 21, 2019 by Regi

[Regi]

1 hour ago, Vincennes said:

I also thought it was odd that if Brian crossed that roadway, climbed the fence and the side barricade that no one ever reported seeing him do it.  That road is non-stop 24 hours a day.  It would also be such an oddity for a crossing, I think if he did that someone would remember seeing him.  

Yeah, I'd expect that someone would have, but I wouldn't have ruled out that he could have taken the pedestrian tunnel, which- based on what I figured- is only 0.3 miles from the hotel.

Edited February 21, 2019 by Regi

[skliss]

On 2/18/2019 at 10:56 AM, Regi said:

Well, my point was that the friend said that the doorman wouldn't let him in because he was sick, but that's not accurate is it?

As far as I remember the friend didn't say that.  He left Brian in the lot because Brian had thrown up in his car and he was still vomiting. I would never abandon a friend in that state but I've seen others do it.

[skliss]

On 2/21/2019 at 1:06 PM, Vincennes said:

 

One thing that bothered me is that I had the impression that when they left the bar they left it in a car.  I didn't hear anyone mention walking until after they were at the hotel and Brian was left outside.   Needless to say that would mean the killer followed them in a car to the hotel.  Anyone else have that impression ?

I also thought it was odd that if Brian crossed that roadway, climbed the fence and the side barricade that no one ever reported seeing him do it.  That road is non-stop 24 hours a day.  It would also be such an oddity for a crossing, I think if he did that someone would remember seeing him.  

For your first paragraph, remember these guys are of an exacting type, good athletes, good students...if they are specifically targeted then maybe he was stalked beforehand and that would explain extraordinary measures taken by the killer(s) to follow or whatever. Also, if his drink was spiked then whomever did that would have to be pretty close to Brian. He could have overheard which hotel they were staying at. I don't remember how close to the hotel the bar was. It may have been simple to follow them. I've walked faster than city type traffic on occasion.

I totally agree with your 2nd paragraph. He would have been seen by many people.

[skliss]

On 2/21/2019 at 2:21 PM, Regi said:

This is what I'm sayin', it isn't clear! 20 Years later and we aren't presented with a clear and accurate picture!

Anyway, it sounded to me as though some of the guys took a car to the bar, while others took a cab, and then after the bar closed, Brian and three of the guys went back to the hotel in the car, while the friend (Nick's his name) and some other guy went elsewhere in a cab, although, it wasn't clear to me whether those two arrived back at the hotel in a cab or had walked back. 

I honestly don't remember a cab mentioned at all. Many times bars are within walking distance of each other. I'm  also not sure why it makes a difference if these guys used a cab after they separated or walked. It  has nothing to do with the disappearance in any way. In fact, it could be argued if cabs were so easy to get that night, why couldn't the killer have followed Brian and the 3 guys to their hotel in a cab? "Follow my friends, we're meeting up at the next place." 

[skliss]

On 2/21/2019 at 2:32 PM, Regi said:

Yeah, I'd expect that someone would have, but I wouldn't have ruled out that he could have taken the pedestrian tunnel, which- based on what I figured- is only 0.3 miles from the hotel.

The tunnel is after the 10 lane highway. He would have to cross to get to the tunnel.

Anyway, I'm not convinced that the latest one, Tommy Booth, is a smiley face killer case. I think it's more likely he got in over his head with these guys he knew that were dealing with illegal drugs and guns and they silenced him. 

[Vincennes]

1 hour ago, skliss said:

For your first paragraph, remember these guys are of an exacting type, good athletes, good students...if they are specifically targeted then maybe he was stalked beforehand and that would explain extraordinary measures taken by the killer(s) to follow or whatever. Also, if his drink was spiked then whomever did that would have to be pretty close to Brian. He could have overheard which hotel they were staying at. I don't remember how close to the hotel the bar was. It may have been simple to follow them. I've walked faster than city type traffic on occasion.

 

I need to watch this documentary again.  I would like to pin down the locations of the bar, the hotel and where they are saying he crossed the highway and the tunnel location.  I'd also like to know where their parking lot was located.  That's another thing they didn't actually pin down.  I stayed in a downtown hotel in that area (I think it might have been that one) and it did not have it's own parking garage.  Parking in downtown Chicago is difficult to find and it's not right next door but rather public garages that are blocks away.    

I think it's important to also remember that the gaps in the information now are not the fault of the detectives doing the investigating now.  They are the fault of the detectives doing such sloppy work at the time !  But none of these missing bits of information counter the fact that it does sound like several of these victims were undoubtedly drugged and that for some reason their bodies were NOT in the water for the entire length of time they were missing.  The other thing that gets to me about them is that there is a similarity in the type of kids the victims were.  

I think all of that put together is just too much to ignore.

 

Edited February 23, 2019 by Vincennes

[Regi]

7 hours ago, skliss said:

As far as I remember the friend didn't say that.  He left Brian in the lot because Brian had thrown up in his car and he was still vomiting.

 

7 hours ago, skliss said:

I honestly don't remember a cab mentioned at all.

(I've since recorded a repeat of the episode so that (for one thing) I could transcribe any dialogue that may be helpful.)

Q: How about coming back from Irish Eyes? A: Well we only took one car and then some of us took a cab and they went back to the hotel and we ended up having another drink and then kind of making our way back to the hotel.

Q: When did you get back to the hotel? A: Right around four o'clock.

Q: When did you learn that Brian wasn't around? A: Right away; right when I walked in.

Q: The other guys were in the room... with no Brian. A: Yeah, they said he got sick in the car and they said he was outside while they ran upstairs.

Q: So then they just left him out there while he was continuing to get sick? A: I think so; I think that's when the doorman wasn't letting him in because he was getting sick outside.

Q: Did you have occasion to talk to the doorman? A: No, I never did cause I think it was shift change or something like that so I never really was able to speak to him.

                                                                         (end)

Now, the following is from the written narrative of a police report, that is, the portion of the report that was visible:

people to a bar located down the street from Irish Eyes Bar. They asked the missing but he stated that he was going back to the hotel with [redacted], [redacted], and [redacted]. They returned to the Ambassador Hotel between 0200 and 0230 hours in [redacted] auto, a 1985 Nissan Maxima 4 door black, Illinois license [redacted]. [redacted] pulled up in front of the door at the hotel facing east bound on the north side of the street. At this time, [redacted] and [redacted] exited the vehicle and went into the hotel. [redacted] stated that the missing stayed in the vehicle and when [redacted] asked him to get out because he was going to park the car, the missing vomited in the back seat. The second time he asked Brian to get out of the car he exited the vehicle. At this time, [redacted] went to park the vehicle. When he returned to the hotel he went up to the room and left the door ajar. He did not know if the others had a key to the room. At this time he found only [redacted] and [redacted] in the room asleep. He then went to bed and did not wake up until approximately 1200 hours on 1 Jan 00.

The doorman/security officer, [redacted] was interviewed. He related the following. On 31 Dec 99 he started work at 2100 hours relieving [redacted], the afternoon doorman. He stated that at approximately 0120 hours he walked out the front door and observed a male white approximately 21 years old, later identified as Brian Welzien, lying on the curb across the street from the hotel. He approached him and tapped him on the shoulder asking him to get up and move on. The subject stated that he was okay and waiting for friends. He stated that the subject was highly intoxicated. About 20 minutes later [redacted] stated that he observed the subject get to his feet and lean on a green Intreped. [redacted] walked up to the subject again and asked him to move on because the vehicle belonged to a hotel employee. He stated that the subject was vomiting on the vehicle. The subject identified as Welzien again stated that he

                                                                                          (end)

7 hours ago, skliss said:

The tunnel is after the 10 lane highway. He would have to cross to get to the tunnel.

The purpose of the tunnel is for pedestrians to get to either side of the hwy.

On the west side of the hwy, it's on the north corner of E. Division St., and btw- I hadn't noticed this until now, but- there's also access on the east side of N. Shore Dr. where there's a bus stop.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/E+Division+St,+Chicago,+IL+60610/@41.9038688,-87.6251415,176m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x880fd35069b0d7df:0x18cae4aa48b67264!8m2!3d41.9039847!4d-87.626847

Edited February 23, 2019 by Regi

[skliss]

3 hours ago, Regi said:

 

(I've since recorded a repeat of the episode so that (for one thing) I could transcribe any dialogue that may be helpful.)

Q: How about coming back from Irish Eyes? A: Well we only took one car and then some of us took a cab and they went back to the hotel and we ended up having another drink and then kind of making our way back to the hotel.

Q: When did you get back to the hotel? A: Right around four o'clock.

Q: When did you learn that Brian wasn't around? A: Right away; right when I walked in.

Q: The other guys were in the room... with no Brian. A: Yeah, they said he got sick in the car and they said he was outside while they ran upstairs.

Q: So then they just left him out there while he was continuing to get sick? A: I think so; I think that's when the doorman wasn't letting him in because he was getting sick outside.

Q: Did you have occasion to talk to the doorman? A: No, I never did cause I think it was shift change or something like that so I never really was able to speak to him.

                                                                         (end)

Now, the following is from the written narrative of a police report, that is, the portion of the report that was visible:

people to a bar located down the street from Irish Eyes Bar. They asked the missing but he stated that he was going back to the hotel with [redacted], [redacted], and [redacted]. They returned to the Ambassador Hotel between 0200 and 0230 hours in [redacted] auto, a 1985 Nissan Maxima 4 door black, Illinois license [redacted]. [redacted] pulled up in front of the door at the hotel facing east bound on the north side of the street. At this time, [redacted] and [redacted] exited the vehicle and went into the hotel. [redacted] stated that the missing stayed in the vehicle and when [redacted] asked him to get out because he was going to park the car, the missing vomited in the back seat. The second time he asked Brian to get out of the car he exited the vehicle. At this time, [redacted] went to park the vehicle. When he returned to the hotel he went up to the room and left the door ajar. He did not know if the others had a key to the room. At this time he found only [redacted] and [redacted] in the room asleep. He then went to bed and did not wake up until approximately 1200 hours on 1 Jan 00.

The doorman/security officer, [redacted] was interviewed. He related the following. On 31 Dec 99 he started work at 2100 hours relieving [redacted], the afternoon doorman. He stated that at approximately 0120 hours he walked out the front door and observed a male white approximately 21 years old, later identified as Brian Welzien, lying on the curb across the street from the hotel. He approached him and tapped him on the shoulder asking him to get up and move on. The subject stated that he was okay and waiting for friends. He stated that the subject was highly intoxicated. About 20 minutes later [redacted] stated that he observed the subject get to his feet and lean on a green Intreped. [redacted] walked up to the subject again and asked him to move on because the vehicle belonged to a hotel employee. He stated that the subject was vomiting on the vehicle. The subject identified as Welzien again stated that he

                                                                                          (end)

The purpose of the tunnel is for pedestrians to get to either side of the hwy.

On the west side of the hwy, it's on the north corner of E. Division St., and btw- I hadn't noticed this until now, but- there's also access on the east side of N. Shore Dr. where there's a bus stop.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/E+Division+St,+Chicago,+IL+60610/@41.9038688,-87.6251415,176m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x880fd35069b0d7df:0x18cae4aa48b67264!8m2!3d41.9039847!4d-87.626847

Thanks for typing that all out! I still have it taped as both sons want to see this series at a later date. So the guys that stayed behind took a cab somewhere. It still doesnt affect any happenings with Brian other than it does add the possibility the killer could have also taken a cab, or even his own car to the hotel as well. So the witness they talked to had no idea why Brian wasnt inside other than 3rd hand from the people who left him out there. The doorman had a brief interaction with him...told him to leave and witnessed Brian still vomiting...from the reported only two drinks he had.... and then lost track of him. 

I remember they discounted the tunnel for some reason. I thought it was because it was across the highway but maybe it was construction.  I'm starting to get them confused. I'll have to go back and watch again.

 

[skliss]

9 hours ago, Vincennes said:

it does sound like several of these victims were undoubtedly drugged

On one of the shows they said that in 100% of the cases where they were able to obtain tissue samples for analysis the victims had GHB in their systems. 

[Vincennes]

On ‎2‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 2:21 PM, Regi said:

This is what I'm sayin', it isn't clear! 20 Years later and we aren't presented with a clear and accurate picture!

 

You're not getting the fact that these detectives are not trying to furnish every answer.  They are limited by the police work that was done at the time and sometimes they are denied access to even that.  They can't walk in and demand reports.  What they are trying to do is use the information that they are able to get and research that enough to get LE to look at the cases again.  To show that there is enough evidence to prove these are not just simple accidental drownings, open, close and yawn.  

I watched one last night that said it was the end of the series.  In that one the kid was missing 71 days and was then found in a warm water lake with 3 days decomposition.  

One thing occurred to me last night.  All of the victims that I've seen so far and their families seem to be at least upper middle class.  All have a good school record and the prospective of a good life.  All kids someone might be jealous of..... 

[Regi]

15 hours ago, skliss said:

So the guys that stayed behind took a cab somewhere.

That's how I took it the first time, but considering the info from the police report that the other bar was "located down the street", that isn't how I take it now. 

15 hours ago, skliss said:

So the witness they talked to had no idea why Brian wasnt inside other than 3rd hand from the people who left him out there.

  Then where would they have gotten that idea?

16 hours ago, skliss said:

The doorman had a brief interaction with him...told him to leave and witnessed Brian still vomiting...from the reported only two drinks he had.... and then lost track of him.

From what was available of his statement, the doorman recounted two interactions, about 20 minutes apart. (And needless to say, it'd be helpful to know the rest of his statement.)

Re: only two drinks- even if I was convinced that it was only two drinks- the info. that he was 160 lbs. and not used to drinking alcohol suggests to me a low tolerance, but also, there are other factors to consider, such as how strong the drinks were and how quickly they were consumed and whether his stomach was empty...Anyway, I see no reason to think that he was suffering from anything other than alcohol poisoning.