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Smiley Face Murders

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Regi
3 hours ago, Vincennes said:

You're not getting the fact that these detectives are not trying to furnish every answer.  They are limited by the police work that was done at the time and sometimes they are denied access to even that.  They can't walk in and demand reports.  What they are trying to do is use the information that they are able to get and research that enough to get LE to look at the cases again.  To show that there is enough evidence to prove these are not just simple accidental drownings, open, close and yawn. 

Why are you speaking in general terms when I was speaking specifically to Brian's case?

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Vincennes
1 hour ago, Regi said:

Why are you speaking in general terms when I was speaking specifically to Brian's case?

Because what I said is applicable to every single one of the cases that I've seen in this series, including Brian's.  

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skliss
On 2/24/2019 at 1:17 PM, Regi said:

That's how I took it the first time, but considering the info from the police report that the other bar was "located down the street", that isn't how I take it now. :lol:

  Then where would they have gotten that idea?

From what was available of his statement, the doorman recounted two interactions, about 20 minutes apart. (And needless to say, it'd be helpful to know the rest of his statement.)

Re: only two drinks- even if I was convinced that it was only two drinks- the info. that he was 160 lbs. and not used to drinking alcohol suggests to me a low tolerance, but also, there are other factors to consider, such as how strong the drinks were and how quickly they were consumed and whether his stomach was empty...Anyway, I see no reason to think that he was suffering from anything other than alcohol poisoning.

Still not sure what difference it makes what the guys other than the ones with Brian did....it has no bearing on the case...took a cab, didn't take a cab...doesn't matter nor does it change a finding from accident to murder or vice versa...its completely irrelevant. 

Who are they that you are talking about? The witness on the show was one of the guys who stayed behind. He told the retired cops what he knew based on what the guys who went with Brian said. That's all...seems to match up with the report so nothing to see there.

Going by witnesses is all we can do, they say 2 drinks, I can't think of a reason they would lie about that. I've known a couple of people with low tolerance, in fact we called those types "2 can Sam's" . 2 beers and they were feeling it......but I've never seen any of them vomiting repeatedly for hours after only 2 drinks. I've also seen people with alcohol poisoning and some so bad they landed in the hospital....there is no physical way a person could have alcohol poisoning on only 2 drinks. 

Found this:

  • At 150 pounds, a man will have a blood alcohol concentration of 0.05 after two drinks. If he drinks them over one hour, he will have a blood alcohol concentration of 0.04, and after two hours, he will have a blood alcohol concentration of 0.02. After three hours, his blood alcohol concentration will be down to 0.003, and after four hours, it will be down to 0.00.

So as time went on he should have been getting better and obviously 2 drinks aren't enough to produce the condition Brian was in.

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Regi
23 hours ago, Vincennes said:

Because what I said is applicable to every single one of the cases that I've seen in this series, including Brian's.  

In Brian's case, it isn't that (for any of those reasons you mentioned) they didn't have the info, it's that they just skipped over it.

As for what they're trying to do, regardless, I'd still expect to have come away from the episode with a better understanding of the facts and circumstances leading up to the last known sightings and communications.

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skliss

So what did you think of the Tommy Booth case? I'm not sure it's a true smiley face murder.

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rashore

Googling around a bit about this, wanted to throw some old links I found about this. I haven't gotten around to watching the shows about it yet, so forgive me if I'm giving info folks already know about with this.

A wordpress about it. Most of the links are now dead or direct you places you don't want to go. But an interesting pull-together of stuff and a few links are still good....

March 16, 2009: CNN Larry King transcript about it: http://archives.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0903/26/lkl.01.html

May 21 2008: CNN article about it: http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/05/21/smiley.face.killer/index.html

And the Homicide Center research brief about it didn't work from the wordpress, but I found the home site that has the brief and a brief of photos of the smiley faces: http://homicidecenter.org/publication/drowning-the-smiley-face-murder-theory/

A couple other old articles more of local news variety.

April 30, 2008: WNDU from South Bend, Indiana. Notre Dame student, Chad Sharon, and mentions Chris Jenkins, a University of Minnesota student who disappeared in October of 2002: https://www.wndu.com/home/headlines/18390749.html

May 7, 2008: Daily Hearald, Elgin, Illinois. Brian Welzien, Northern Illinois University, was last seen l in the early morning hours of Jan. 1, 2000. Another name from Illinois, Glenn Leadley. last seen Feb. 8, 2003. https://prev.dailyherald.com/story/?id=186815

and newer stuff:

June 28, 2018. Allthatsinteresting article: https://allthatsinteresting.com/smiley-face-killer-theory

Nov 21, 2017, Pittsburgh-Post Gazette:  https://www.post-gazette.com/local/city/2017/11/21/Pittsburgh-missing-serial-killer-smiley-face-killer-paul-kochu-dakota-james-three-rivers-two-mysteries-cyril-wecht-police-stephen-zappala-jr-district-attorney-podcast/stories/201711160174

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Regi
51 minutes ago, skliss said:

Still not sure what difference it makes what the guys other than the ones with Brian did.

I think it's just that I like to know things you don't.

51 minutes ago, skliss said:

Who are they that you are talking about?

The same ones you were.

52 minutes ago, skliss said:

Going by witnesses is all we can do, they say 2 drinks, I can't think of a reason they would lie about that.

Go by what ever you want, I remember one witness- Nick- and what he said he remembered, and I wasn't suggesting that anybody lied! 

 

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Vincennes
16 hours ago, skliss said:

So what did you think of the Tommy Booth case? I'm not sure it's a true smiley face murder.

I had reservations about it too.  Not that it wasn't a murder but because of the location being a country setting with what sounded like a pretty closed group of people.  I couldn't see how a serial killer would know where that lake was and that there was a boat available there.  However, watching the mom and the kid's history, it occurred to me this was another kid other's might very well be jealous of.  

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Vincennes

 

This link brings us more questions than answers:  www.answers.com/Q/How_long_does_alcohol_stay_in_your_system_once_your_dead

I've been meaning to look this up for weeks.  I was extremely surprised by what I found.  I had expected to find the amount of alcohol in the blood diminishes after death but it looks like it's just the opposite of that.  The decomposition process causes things in the body to ferment so the alcohol content actually increases.  

So, taking Brian as an example, was he alive long enough that there was actually less than .08 in this blood ?  
 

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skliss
21 hours ago, rashore said:

Googling around a bit about this, wanted to throw some old links I found about this. I haven't gotten around to watching the shows about it yet, so forgive me if I'm giving info folks already know about with this.

A wordpress about it. Most of the links are now dead or direct you places you don't want to go. But an interesting pull-together of stuff and a few links are still good....

March 16, 2009: CNN Larry King transcript about it: http://archives.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0903/26/lkl.01.html

May 21 2008: CNN article about it: http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/05/21/smiley.face.killer/index.html

And the Homicide Center research brief about it didn't work from the wordpress, but I found the home site that has the brief and a brief of photos of the smiley faces: http://homicidecenter.org/publication/drowning-the-smiley-face-murder-theory/

A couple other old articles more of local news variety.

April 30, 2008: WNDU from South Bend, Indiana. Notre Dame student, Chad Sharon, and mentions Chris Jenkins, a University of Minnesota student who disappeared in October of 2002: https://www.wndu.com/home/headlines/18390749.html

May 7, 2008: Daily Hearald, Elgin, Illinois. Brian Welzien, Northern Illinois University, was last seen l in the early morning hours of Jan. 1, 2000. Another name from Illinois, Glenn Leadley. last seen Feb. 8, 2003. https://prev.dailyherald.com/story/?id=186815

and newer stuff:

June 28, 2018. Allthatsinteresting article: https://allthatsinteresting.com/smiley-face-killer-theory

Nov 21, 2017, Pittsburgh-Post Gazette:  https://www.post-gazette.com/local/city/2017/11/21/Pittsburgh-missing-serial-killer-smiley-face-killer-paul-kochu-dakota-james-three-rivers-two-mysteries-cyril-wecht-police-stephen-zappala-jr-district-attorney-podcast/stories/201711160174

Thanks! I'll check those out!

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skliss
5 hours ago, Vincennes said:

I had reservations about it too.  Not that it wasn't a murder but because of the location being a country setting with what sounded like a pretty closed group of people.  I couldn't see how a serial killer would know where that lake was and that there was a boat available there.  However, watching the mom and the kid's history, it occurred to me this was another kid other's might very well be jealous of.  

Tommy Booth was the one they found behind a bar, he was in a creek. It looked like he was dragged a bit. He had told some people before going missing he was scared and thinking that he needed to move away from the area. Turns out some people he knew were running drugs and guns. He also doesn't completely fit the profile. I think these people may have asked him to join them and when he said no they considered him a threat.

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Vincennes
17 hours ago, skliss said:

Tommy Booth was the one they found behind a bar, he was in a creek. It looked like he was dragged a bit. He had told some people before going missing he was scared and thinking that he needed to move away from the area. Turns out some people he knew were running drugs and guns. He also doesn't completely fit the profile. I think these people may have asked him to join them and when he said no they considered him a threat.

Sorry, I was thinking about the kid in the last episode that was found in the private lake.  

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skliss
4 hours ago, Vincennes said:

Sorry, I was thinking about the kid in the last episode that was found in the private lake.  

No prob. They are easy to get confused. 

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Regi
On 2/26/2019 at 9:45 AM, Vincennes said:

The decomposition process causes things in the body to ferment so the alcohol content actually increases.  

So, taking Brian as an example, was he alive long enough that there was actually less than .08 in this blood ?  
 

To me, the result confirms only one thing- and something already known- which is that leading up to the time of his death, he'd been drinking alcohol.

 

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Regi
On 2/26/2019 at 2:40 PM, skliss said:

Tommy Booth was the one they found behind a bar, he was in a creek. It looked like he was dragged a bit.

That's not how it looked to me, in other words, I don't conclude that what caused that is that "he was dragged".

On 2/26/2019 at 2:40 PM, skliss said:

 He had told some people before going missing he was scared and thinking that he needed to move away from the area.

None of that's true.

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Vincennes
15 hours ago, Regi said:

To me, the result confirms only one thing- and something already known- which is that leading up to the time of his death, he'd been drinking alcohol.

 

Actually it's the reverse of that.  The body produces it's own alcohol in the decomposition process.  

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Regi
On 2/28/2019 at 7:16 AM, Vincennes said:

The body produces it's own alcohol in the decomposition process.  

I definitely don't know enough about that, I just know (for me) the tox. result provides info. that's already known.

As for what it could indicate as to how long he was alive, I really don't know, but hopefully others will share their thoughts.

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Vincennes
16 minutes ago, Regi said:

I definitely don't know enough about that, I just know (for me) the tox. result provides info. that's already known.

I was surprised at the number of articles that came up when I searched it.  It does make sense though.  Something like the process that surprised me so much when working at the JV prison.  All they needed was an orange and a piece of bread and they good come up with pretty potent hooch.  That's what seems to happen with what's in the stomach at the time of death.  It starts decaying and bingo the result of that decay is alcohol.  

 

22 minutes ago, Regi said:

I definitely don't know enough about that, I just know (for me) the tox. result provides info. that's already known.

 

I don't think the amount of the resulting alcohol could be predicted.  It would depend on what exactly was in the stomach which is one of the things I was thinking about.  I do know that there is a factor of "drunk" caused by people being seated as they are consuming the alcohol.  Then, when they stand up and start moving about what was contained in the stomach suddenly starts being pumped through the body by the increased activity.  So you can be sitting at the bar knocking them back and be fine, when you stand up and start walking it's a different story.  I think this might apply to the kid in Chicago.  1) He was not a drinker so less ability to cope with effects.  He's drinking Long Island Ice Tea which is extremely potent.  So, he's okay until he increases his activity walking outside and bang it hits him.  At that point  the intense vomiting doesn't really surprise me.  Almost the same exact thing happened to me at the same age and inexperience and I did continue vomiting for almost the entire night over one strong drink.  

Last meandering thought is what was found in their stomachs ?  If they were killed at the time of going missing they should have been able to pretty much trace back the last thing that they had eaten.  Again, using the kid in Chicago, if he were kept for 71 days was he the same weight ?  Was there anything in his stomach ?  Could they trace it back to what they could identify ?  No mention of food in the stomach was mentioned on any of the kids.  

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skliss
On 2/27/2019 at 6:06 PM, Regi said:

That's not how it looked to me, in other words, I don't conclude that what caused that is that "he was dragged".

None of that's true.

What do you think made the drag marks?

Why do you say it's not true when it was reported by multiple sources?

 

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skliss
5 hours ago, Vincennes said:

I was surprised at the number of articles that came up when I searched it.  It does make sense though.  Something like the process that surprised me so much when working at the JV prison.  All they needed was an orange and a piece of bread and they good come up with pretty potent hooch.  That's what seems to happen with what's in the stomach at the time of death.  It starts decaying and bingo the result of that decay is alcohol.  

 

I don't think the amount of the resulting alcohol could be predicted.  It would depend on what exactly was in the stomach which is one of the things I was thinking about.  I do know that there is a factor of "drunk" caused by people being seated as they are consuming the alcohol.  Then, when they stand up and start moving about what was contained in the stomach suddenly starts being pumped through the body by the increased activity.  So you can be sitting at the bar knocking them back and be fine, when you stand up and start walking it's a different story.  I think this might apply to the kid in Chicago.  1) He was not a drinker so less ability to cope with effects.  He's drinking Long Island Ice Tea which is extremely potent.  So, he's okay until he increases his activity walking outside and bang it hits him.  At that point  the intense vomiting doesn't really surprise me.  Almost the same exact thing happened to me at the same age and inexperience and I did continue vomiting for almost the entire night over one strong drink.  

Last meandering thought is what was found in their stomachs ?  If they were killed at the time of going missing they should have been able to pretty much trace back the last thing that they had eaten.  Again, using the kid in Chicago, if he were kept for 71 days was he the same weight ?  Was there anything in his stomach ?  Could they trace it back to what they could identify ?  No mention of food in the stomach was mentioned on any of the kids.  

And I wish we could see the full results of the autopsies.  Unfortunately I think they are hampered by a time restriction because they are one hour shows. Wonder if they are on-line any where. I have to think that as 3 out of 4 of these investigators are former homicide detectives and the last one has a PhD in criminology these things had to have occurred to them as well. 

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Regi
8 hours ago, Vincennes said:

Last meandering thought is what was found in their stomachs ?  If they were killed at the time of going missing they should have been able to pretty much trace back the last thing that they had eaten.  Again, using the kid in Chicago, if he were kept for 71 days was he the same weight ?  Was there anything in his stomach ?  Could they trace it back to what they could identify ?  No mention of food in the stomach was mentioned on any of the kids.  

Well, that's an excellent thought, Vin, and no, there's been no mention of stomach content (I've seen episodes up to the Tommy Booth case), but in Brian's case- due to the vomiting, I'd have expected the autopsy finding, which is that "The stomach contained a very minimal amount of fluid."

Since you asked about weight (remember, it was reportedly 160), the report states that the body weighed 257.

(Needless to say, I had to pause the TV in order to get all that info.<_<)

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Regi
3 hours ago, skliss said:

What do you think made the drag marks?

I don't know why that's plural, but I didn't see anything I'd refer to as a drag mark.

3 hours ago, skliss said:

Why do you say it's not true when it was reported by multiple sources?

He never told anybody that he was scared, nor did he tell anybody he was thinking he needed to move away from the area because he was scared.

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Vincennes
17 hours ago, skliss said:

And I wish we could see the full results of the autopsies.  Unfortunately I think they are hampered by a time restriction because they are one hour shows. Wonder if they are on-line any where. I have to think that as 3 out of 4 of these investigators are former homicide detectives and the last one has a PhD in criminology these things had to have occurred to them as well. 

I agree with you that they were under a one hour time limit and that their intention is to push these police departments to reopen the cases.  They are not trying to solve them.  I think you and I know from the local news coverage of the disappearances in Columbus did get were perfect examples something beyond normal accidents or a street crime.    

(My grandson, recently graduated BG, moved to the Short North in Columbus and works in the sports arena district.  (Totally good kid, I don't think he's even ever had a traffic ticket) I was with his mom around Christmas who was talking to him because they were having a severe ice storms, power lines down etc.  He was at a neighborhood bar but knows very few people since he has just moved there.  It was so bad she was afraid he'd have trouble walking home.  He called her back later to let her know he was home, someone had given him a ride.)  Obviously, I'm terrified about him being the perfect profile of these victims.  We have made him aware of this but the only thing we could think to warn him about was to watch his drinks AT ALL TIMES ! 

The kid from the Ugly Tuna Salona bothers me the most.  I know it's not a 5-star restaurant but it is still rather upscale for a college area bar and that kid disappeared right in front of security guards and video cameras.  So, please don't ever think I'm dismissing what they have presented. 

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Vincennes
14 hours ago, Regi said:

I don't know why that's plural, but I didn't see anything I'd refer to as a drag mark.

He never told anybody that he was scared, nor did he tell anybody he was thinking he needed to move away from the area because he was scared.

What are you talking about because both of these things were presented ?  They had actual LE photos of the drag marks.  And they had witnesses to say he had approached them about being frightened about what some of his acquaintances were into.  Are you talking about Tommy Both ?   

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Regi
1 hour ago, Vincennes said:

They had actual LE photos of the drag marks.  And they had witnesses to say he had approached them about being frightened about what some of his acquaintances were into. 

 Hello? I saw and heard all of the same things you did.

To me, (in Tommy's case) the most significant info. pertaining to cause- and speaks to manner- is the toxicology results.

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