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Trump to make major announcement re shutdown

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DieChecker

I wonder if the Italians would like a wall between them and Africa? EU immigration, their PM said, may lead to them leaving the EU.

I think it was Hungary which put up border fences to funnel migrants to Germany. Walls, and fences, work.

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skliss
2 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

 

Nations have always had borders.  For the most part they have respected those borders, but more and more nations are building walls to assure their borders are respected.

 

"Love your neighbor, yet don't pull down your hedge." - Benjamin Franklin

"Good fences make good neighbors" - Robert Frost

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Gromdor
35 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

Aren’t we privileged.  Well, if you live in London, I dare you to just walk into your Mayor’s backyard.  You can hop over his 3’ fence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansion_House,_London

You can just walk around it.

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RavenHawk
7 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

 

Nice to know it has its own wiki page.  Well, then just barge right in, head to the upper floors (I assume the actual residence is there??) and just kick back on the furniture.  DOH!

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Gromdor
2 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

 

Nice to know it has its own wiki page.  Well, then just barge right in, head to the upper floors (I assume the actual residence is there??) and just kick back on the furniture.  DOH!

 

I'm willing to bet it has some sort of security (that isn't a wall) that stops that sort of thing from happening.  Maybe we should study it and apply it here in the US, especially if it is more effective. Walls seem to not work here in the US-  given the illegals that managed to get past Pelosi's and Trump's walls at their residence and golf club, respectively.

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Farmer77
1 hour ago, RavenHawk said:

So you conveniently leave off the reference to the Founding Fathers owning slaves.  Did you know that Jefferson was so opposed to slavery, that he originally included freeing the slaves in an early draft of the Declaration of Independence?  And while he still owned slaves.  Do you not consider Jefferson as a Man of character?

Was Jefferson breaking the law by owning slaves? Was Jefferson calling other people anti American and mobilizing groups of Americans against them for having slaves while doing so himself? (obviously the term Americans is loose here)

1 hour ago, RavenHawk said:

You have a poor example.  Laws don’t stop criminals.  But a strong fence or wall certainly cuts that down to a trickle.  And gives Law Enforcement time to respond.  “Gun free zones” are like a border with no walls.  If we close the border, not just say that there is a *Need* to, we’ll save American lives.

Man over 60% of illegal immigration comes via legal means, i.e airports, boats and legal ports of entry. A wall wont affect them at all. Going further we can agree that nothing in life is 100% perfect so the wall will still allow a percentage of folks through, ill be generous and say that only 25% of those attempting to do so will get past the wall. So realistically we're looking at the wall affecting less than 70% of all illegal immigration.

 

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RavenHawk
3 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

I'm willing to bet it has some sort of security (that isn't a wall) that stops that sort of thing from happening.  Maybe we should study it and apply it here in the US, especially if it is more effective. Walls seem to not work here in the US-  given the illegals that managed to get past Pelosi's and Trump's walls at their residence and golf club, respectively.

 

Sigh! – The stupid, it burns.  Yes, there is some sort of security, it’s called walls.  Nothing more effective than a wall.

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Gromdor
Just now, RavenHawk said:

 

Sigh! – The stupid, it burns.  Yes, there is some sort of security, it’s called walls.  Nothing more effective than a wall.

I don't see any 30' walls around the mayors house in that picture...... 

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Black Red Devil
51 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

I wonder if the Italians would like a wall between them and Africa? EU immigration, their PM said, may lead to them leaving the EU.

I think it was Hungary which put up border fences to funnel migrants to Germany. Walls, and fences, work.

They have a wall, it's called the Mediterranean Sea and it still didn't stop the boats arriving.  What the italians have been doing successfully in recent times is assist the Govts of Lybia and Tunisia to stop these people from departing their coasts in the first place.  Through aid and intelligence they're going after the criminals organising the human trafficking.  Considering it's reduced the departures, it's working.  The US should follow suit and assist the Govts of Mexico, Honduras, Guatemala etc. instead of building a wall.  Instead of providing 2.9 billion dollars in aid to Israel each year, mostly in military assistance, why don't they re-allocate more money to these poor Central American countries so they can create jobs and help with their welfare systems?

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RavenHawk
25 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

Was Jefferson breaking the law by owning slaves? Was Jefferson calling other people anti American and mobilizing groups of Americans against them for having slaves while doing so himself? (obviously the term Americans is loose here)

 

I believe Jefferson did have words with his fellow countrymen (Virginians) because of their opposition to freeing the slaves.  Our laws for hiring illegals is hardly enforced much.  It’s a game all business plays.  It needs to end but because the Trump empire hires illegals shows how little you know about corporate American.  I already explained it.  Slavery was morally breaking the law but that didn’t stop Jefferson from having a sex slave.  I really don’t think that if the Trump empire hires illegals, it is neither here nor there.

 

Man over 60% of illegal immigration comes via legal means, i.e airports, boats and legal ports of entry. A wall wont affect them at all. Going further we can agree that nothing in life is 100% perfect so the wall will still allow a percentage of folks through, ill be generous and say that only 25% of those attempting to do so will get past the wall. So realistically we're looking at the wall affecting less than 70% of all illegal immigration.

No, 100% of illegal immigration comes all from illegal activity.  If the wall is built, then a portion of that illegal activity will be cut out.  That reduces the overall problem.  Makes the problem easier.  A wall will probably cut out over 90% of those crossing the border.  I love it how people will champion locking down on Ports of Entry or keeping tighter controls of visa holders, not realizing that if these areas are closed off, there is the entire border to choose from.  One gets a visa to come to Mexico, then slips across the border.  Now I consider those things as part of the wall, but without the physical barrier up, it won’t matter if we lockdown Ports of Entry or keep better tabs on visa holders.  It’ll just be one big game of whack-a-mole.

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RavenHawk
53 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

I don't see any 30' walls around the mayors house in that picture...... 

 

You’re not looking close enough…  Maybe you’re looking too close?

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Gromdor
3 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

 

No, 100% of illegal immigration comes all from illegal activity.  If the wall is built, then a portion of that illegal activity will be cut out.  That reduces the overall problem.  Makes the problem easier.  A wall will probably cut out over 90% of those crossing the border.  I love it how people will champion locking down on Ports of Entry or keeping tighter controls of visa holders, not realizing that if these areas are closed off, there is the entire border to choose from.  One gets a visa to come to Mexico, then slips across the border.  Now I consider those things as part of the wall, but without the physical barrier up, it won’t matter if we lockdown Ports of Entry or keep better tabs on visa holders.  It’ll just be one big game of whack-a-mole.

 

You realize that Canada no longer require visas from Mexicans, right?  They can just hop a plane to Canada and walk across the border there.

 

3 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

 

You’re not looking close enough…  Maybe you’re looking too close?

Are you trying to hint that the building itself has walls or something?  That is a pretty pointless argument considering every building that illegals currently in the US are in have walls that didn't stop them.

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and then
3 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

Is it worth the lives of Americans not to deal with it now?  You don’t like Trump, fine but why take that out on the Americans that are suffering from open borders?

I think they've made it clear that they don't give a damn about other Americans.  They just want to feed that hate for Trump.  &%^*$ them.  

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Gromdor
11 minutes ago, and then said:

I think they've made it clear that they don't give a damn about other Americans.  They just want to feed that hate for Trump.  &%^*$ them.  

My fellow Americans are safer now, than in the last 20 years and what little danger we face come from places other than what the wall would block.

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Hankenhunter
1 hour ago, and then said:

I think they've made it clear that they don't give a damn about other Americans.  They just want to feed that hate for Trump.  &%^*$ them.  

Ease off man, you're going to make yourself ill hating this much. Hate is not a good base to post from. I feel no hatred towards you. Your just misinformed.

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Tatetopa
3 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

Our laws for hiring illegals is hardly enforced much.  It’s a game all business plays.  It needs to end but because the Trump empire hires illegals shows how little you know about corporate American.

That sounds a little weak to me.  Not all businesses do play that game.  Are you OK with that?  If people in Guatemala know that you don't care about enforcing  hiring regulations, then it is an incentive to head north.

  If we don't care enough about enforcing laws for people already in the country,then why should they worry about a little illegal border crossing.  They break the law by entering, an employer breaks the law by hiring.   Not good policy.

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Hankenhunter
6 hours ago, and then said:

I think they've made it clear that they don't give a damn about other Americans.  They just want to feed that hate for Trump.  &%^*$ them.  

How do you feel about the illegal immigrants  working at Trumps golf courses. And those illegal immigrants being shielded from ICE by Trumps managment?  You still think trump is serious about illegal immigrants? Do what I say, not as I do?

Edited by Hankenhunter
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Aquila King
17 minutes ago, Hankenhunter said:

How do you feel about the illegal immigrants  working at Trumps golf courses. And those illegal immigrants being shielded from ICE by Trumps managment?  You still think trump is serious about illegal immigrants? Do what I say, not as I do?

Something... something... capitalism... free market... something.... something...

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DieChecker
9 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

Was Jefferson breaking the law by owning slaves? Was Jefferson calling other people anti American and mobilizing groups of Americans against them for having slaves while doing so himself? (obviously the term Americans is loose here)

Man over 60% of illegal immigration comes via legal means, i.e airports, boats and legal ports of entry. A wall wont affect them at all. Going further we can agree that nothing in life is 100% perfect so the wall will still allow a percentage of folks through, ill be generous and say that only 25% of those attempting to do so will get past the wall. So realistically we're looking at the wall affecting less than 70% of all illegal immigration.

 

Sounds fantastic. With about a half million people being caught last year, and between three and four times as many making it into the US (according to the Texas Lt Governor), that means the Wall will allow three times as many (75% of 2 million = 1.5 million) to be deflected, or caught. 

Sounds fantastic.

Edited by DieChecker

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DieChecker

Crossings up 100000 in 2018

Quote

The Department of Homeland Security said that, in total, 521,090 individuals were either apprehended or deemed "inadmissible" after arriving at a port of entry on the border during the 2018 fiscal year. In 2017, 415,517 people were caught crossing illegally or turned away, as were 553,378 in 2016.

MILLIONS OF PEOPLE are crossing our border illegally every year.

Sounds like a crisis emergency to me.

Who hete says this is fine, and we should not bother to stop them? Because that's what it looks like some people are saying.

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Tatetopa

 

1 hour ago, DieChecker said:

MILLIONS OF PEOPLE are crossing our border illegally every year.

Sounds like a crisis emergency to me.

From the same article you quoted: 

The U.S. Border Patrol apprehended nearly 400,000 people crossing the Mexico-U.S. border in fiscal 2018, up roughly 100,000 from the prior year, driven in large part by Central American families seeking to enter the United States.

That is significant but not MILLIONS OF PEOPLE. 

More:

Still, administration officials say the only relevant factor in Central American migration is U.S. immigration law.

"We can talk about magnets, and pull factors and push factor and everything else ... if we could return [Central Americans], there is no crisis," said the official.  (My bold.  )

So it seems as much about immigration law and policy as a wall.  What Republican has said anything about this?  Is President Trump campaigning for immigration reform?   

 

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DieChecker
25 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

From the same article you quoted: 

The U.S. Border Patrol apprehended nearly 400,000 people crossing the Mexico-U.S. border in fiscal 2018, up roughly 100,000 from the prior year, driven in large part by Central American families seeking to enter the United States.

That is significant but not MILLIONS OF PEOPLE. 

Yeah, those are the ones caught. How many are NOT caught. Estimates are three to four times as many.

I'll look at a better estimate if you have one?

Edit: Looked for myself...

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-trump-mexico-wall/how-many-people-currently-cross/

According to the Border Patrol, they catch around 80%, so that would mean about only 100,000 make it across. Other sources say (worst case) only 40% are caught. Which would mean about 1.5 times 500k, or about 750,000 people getting through. Which would total 1.25 million attempts. And, that would be worst case.

So, still a lot of people. And arguably still a national emergency.

Quote

More:

Still, administration officials say the only relevant factor in Central American migration is U.S. immigration law.

"We can talk about magnets, and pull factors and push factor and everything else ... if we could return [Central Americans], there is no crisis," said the official.  (My bold.  )

So it seems as much about immigration law and policy as a wall.  What Republican has said anything about this?  Is President Trump campaigning for immigration reform?     

I thought there was talk of all kinds of immigration reform, but since it was framed with a "wall", Speaker Pelosi didn't even want to talk about it. AFAIK, she still doesnt want to talk about reform.

Trump has done all kinds of immigration policy reform. Some turned out to be horrendous and was discontinued. Some was successful, but you will not hear that anywhere but FOX News. As it does not fit many outlets agendas.

Edit:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_policy_of_Donald_Trump

You, and others, may not like his agenda, but many people do. And, liking his agenda is not racist. At least not in how it is framed, in which I do agree with most of his points.

Quote

In his first State of the Union address on January 30, 2018, Trump outlined his administration's four pillars for immigration reform: (1) a path to citizenship for DREAMers; (2) increased border security funding; (3) ending the diversity visa lottery; and (4) restrictions on family-based immigration.[11] The Four Pillars reinforce Trump's campaign slogan to "Buy American, Hire American"[12] and 2017 executive order by the same name, and tracks with previously outlined immigration policy priorities.[13]

 

Edited by DieChecker

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Farmer77
2 hours ago, DieChecker said:

I thought there was talk of all kinds of immigration reform, but since it was framed with a "wall", Speaker Pelosi didn't even want to talk about it. AFAIK, she still doesnt want to talk about reform.

Trump has done all kinds of immigration policy reform. Some turned out to be horrendous and was discontinued. Some was successful, but you will not hear that anywhere but FOX News. As it does not fit many outlets agendas.

For me the problem  is Trump and company's motives are questionable at best and their tactics are flat out wrong. Basically it wouldnt matter what the issue was , if those pushing it feel the need to lie about it constantly,  they simply arent trustworthy enough to do business with.

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Gromdor
6 hours ago, Hankenhunter said:

How do you feel about the illegal immigrants  working at Trumps golf courses. And those illegal immigrants being shielded from ICE by Trumps managment?  You still think trump is serious about illegal immigrants? Do what I say, not as I do?

He started firing them during the shutdown: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/01/27/trump-golf-club-undocumented-workers/2694720002/

He finally realized that no one was going to trust him to keep illegals out of America if he can't keep them off his own properties first.

(On a side note, the guys and I were wondering if hiring illegals at a cut rate from American workers was a violation of the emoluments clause in the Constitution.)

 

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Setton
10 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Crossings up 100000 in 2018

MILLIONS OF PEOPLE are crossing our border illegally every year.

Sounds like a crisis emergency to me.

Who hete says this is fine, and we should not bother to stop them? Because that's what it looks like some people are saying.

In addition to your maths being... shaky... (500,000 =/= millions) you conveniently missed this 

10 hours ago, DieChecker said:

people were caught crossing illegally or turned away,

So even the 500k does not refer to illegal entry exclusively. You need a more detailed breakdown of the data to make any such claim. 

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