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Javelin found embedded in mammoth's rib

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third_eye

That's one hell of an arm to be able to launch that into a mammoth, I'm wondering if its not something the mammoth ran into and got it stuck to itself

~

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Piney
13 minutes ago, third_eye said:

That's one hell of an arm to be able to launch that into a mammoth, I'm wondering if its not something the mammoth ran into and got it stuck to itself

~

When hunting mammoth it was about driving it in. Not throwing it. That's why Clovis spears were socketed. Drive one in, reload, drive another in until it bled out or you hit a vital point. 

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joc
1 hour ago, Piney said:

When hunting mammoth it was about driving it in. Not throwing it. That's why Clovis spears were socketed. Drive one in, reload, drive another in until it bled out or you hit a vital point. 

When you say...drive one in...I am envisioning not hunting but self defense, close up and personal.  Can you elaborate on that please.  

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Piney
2 hours ago, joc said:

When you say...drive one in...I am envisioning not hunting but self defense, close up and personal.  Can you elaborate on that please.  

Your literally running up and jamming the spear in and quickly letting go. or pulling the mainshaft out.

Looking at the date for this find they could of used a atlatl to propel the spear. A properly weighted and balanced atlatl would give you some power. 

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joc
5 minutes ago, Piney said:

Your literally running up and jamming the spear in and quickly letting go. or pulling the mainshaft out.

Looking at the date for this find they could of used a atlatl to propel the spear. A properly weighted and balanced atlatl would give you some power. 

 

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third_eye

A fully grown and mature mammoth, what kind of power are we talking about here, I have heard of instances where shotguns aren't all that effective at all with Asian bull elephant ... though I must say I have no idea about the weight of the shells that was used

~

 

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Hammerclaw

Mammoth hunter spear shafts were stouter, with socketed spear points attached and launched with a spear-thrower. When they struck their target, the shaft would rebound, leaving the point embedded. They could be quickly snatched up and reloaded and reused on the same target.

Edited by Hammerclaw
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Stiff

Just scatter the floor with Lego. One step on that and they're down like a ton of bricks.

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joc

And I'm guessing the hunter was not always successful...

8 minutes ago, third_eye said:

A fully grown and mature mammoth, what kind of power are we talking about here, I have heard of instances where shotguns aren't all that effective at all with Asian bull elephant ... though I must say I have no idea about the weight of the shells that was used

~

 

And I'm guessing the hunter was not always successful...

these idiots deserve to be the gook between the bull elephant's toes

 

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Piney
14 minutes ago, third_eye said:

A fully grown and mature mammoth, what kind of power are we talking about here, I have heard of instances where shotguns aren't all that effective at all with Asian bull elephant ... though I must say I have no idea about the weight of the shells that was used

~

 

A rounded metal slug wouldn't have the penetrating ability of something sharp.

10 gauge black powder shotguns weren't all that powerful either. You could catch a slug in a leather jacket. 

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Piney
15 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Mammoth hunter spear shafts were stouter, with socketed spear points attached and launched with a spear-thrower. When they struck their target, the shaft would rebound, leaving the point embedded. They could be quickly snatched up and reloaded and reused on the same target.

Your describing a Webb Phase atlatl. Mammoths were extinct by the time of it's development in North America and the European (Solutrean) atlatls didn't use socketed spears. 

There's a Webb Phase atlatl on my Facebook museum reproduction page that I use to put foreshafts through car doors.  

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third_eye
Just now, Piney said:

A rounded metal slug wouldn't have the penetrating ability of something sharp.

10 gauge black powder shotguns weren't all that powerful either. You could catch a slug in a leather jacket. 

Makes proper sense, come to think of it after watching the @joc 's vid, I think the circumstances were very much different from the ones I've heard about who were rangers more about herding the elephants away from villages so I guess the point was lost on me. I am more concerned about the bulls running amok when in musk , it does take a lot to cut open a healthy mature elephant is what I've heard

~

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Hammerclaw
5 hours ago, Piney said:

Your describing a Webb Phase atlatl. Mammoths were extinct by the time of it's development in North America and the European (Solutrean) atlatls didn't use socketed spears. 

There's a Webb Phase atlatl on my Facebook museum reproduction page that I use to put foreshafts through car doors.  

Since the atlatl is a one handed weapon and can be used from a boat or canoe, it is thought that it may have originated with coastal or maritime archaic peoples and the compound dart or spear was used extensively. What may have been  forshafts of atlatl darts have been found at Clovis sites and Clovis man most certainly hunted mammoths. The population that replaced them after the Lesser Dryas extinction event, of course did not.

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Piney
1 minute ago, Hammerclaw said:

Since the atlatl is a one handed weapon and can be used from a boat or canoe, it is thought that it may have originated with coastal or maritime archaic peoples and the compound dart or spear was used extensively. What may have been  forshafts of atlatl darts have been found at Clovis sites and Clovis man most certainly hunted mammoths.

 

I've handled many of those Clovis bone foreshafts myself. They were too big for anything but a 'ramming lance" like what was used by later  buffalo hunters. 

1 minute ago, Hammerclaw said:

The population that replaced them after the Lesser Dryas extinction event, of course did not.

It was the same population, They just adopted a different technology. 

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Hammerclaw
1 minute ago, Piney said:

I've handled many of those Clovis bone foreshafts myself. They were too big for anything but a 'ramming lance" like what was used by later  buffalo hunters. 

It was the same population, They just adopted a different technology. 

More than one wave of migration colonized the Americas. The ones I was talking about weren't of bone. I'll cite you some references when I get home. These were identified as possible atlatl forshafts. 

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Piney
1 minute ago, Hammerclaw said:

More than one wave of migration colonized the Americas. The ones I was talking about weren't of bone. I'll cite you some references when I get home. These were identified as possible atlatl forshafts. 

Preciate it! 

I'm thinking 4 waves. One Maritime. One land bridge.  Two on boats across the strait. 

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Myles

This really shouldn't surprise anyone.   The mammoth was meat.  People eat meat.   I'm sure different folks tried many different ways to kill them.   If myself or my family were hungry, I imagine I would attempt to drive a spear into a mammoth, assuming I could get close enough to one.   i wouldn't be confident I could kill it, but I would sure try.  

Now I don't think this find means that this was the typical, most effective and most common means of killing a mammoth.  

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jmccr8
8 hours ago, third_eye said:

Makes proper sense, come to think of it after watching the @joc 's vid, I think the circumstances were very much different from the ones I've heard about who were rangers more about herding the elephants away from villages so I guess the point was lost on me. I am more concerned about the bulls running amok when in musk , it does take a lot to cut open a healthy mature elephant is what I've heard

~

Hi third_eye

Is it possible that they hunted mammoths in the same way that the Pygmy hunters in the Congo do just thought I would bring it up as it would seem that the size of the hunter is not that significant if they know what they are doing?

 https://anthrosource.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1525/aa.1952.54.1.02a00440

jmccr8

 

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Hammerclaw
3 hours ago, Piney said:

Preciate it! 

I'm thinking 4 waves. One Maritime. One land bridge.  Two on boats across the strait. 

As you see by the rather vivid mockup of a mammoth, the idea of running up and thrusting a spear into it would have been well nigh impossible, except for the legs. Atlatls were definitely used with or without compound darts.

http://nativeamericannetroots.net/diary/904

Mammoth 2

Edited by Hammerclaw
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Hankenhunter
11 hours ago, Piney said:

Your literally running up and jamming the spear in and quickly letting go. or pulling the mainshaft out.

Looking at the date for this find they could of used a atlatl to propel the spear. A properly weighted and balanced atlatl would give you some power. 

This bears repeating. Atlatls were a revolution in their own right. More kinetic energy than a arrow, farther distance than a thrown  spear, and deadly accurate. The atlatls also saved lives by allowing hunters to kill at a distance instead of risking trampling by shoving a spear through the hide. Narrowed tips penetrated better and deeper.

Edited by Hankenhunter
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Hankenhunter
1 hour ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi third_eye

Is it possible that they hunted mammoths in the same way that the Pygmy hunters in the Congo do just thought I would bring it up as it would seem that the size of the hunter is not that significant if they know what they are doing?

 https://anthrosource.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1525/aa.1952.54.1.02a00440

jmccr8

 

That's a brave hunter. Gutsy.

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jmccr8
1 minute ago, Hankenhunter said:

That's a brave hunter. Gutsy.

Hi Hankenhunter,

Yes, but then that has been their environment forever so likely guts, glory and steaks make it worthwhile. Many of us take similar risks in our daily lives just in different ways.:)

jmccr8

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Hankenhunter
1 minute ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Hankenhunter,

Yes, but then that has been their environment forever so likely guts, glory and steaks make it worthwhile. Many of us take similar risks in our daily lives just in different ways.:)

jmccr8

I bet he got his choice of the ladies during the celebration. :wub:  That's evolution at work. 

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Hankenhunter
4 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Hankenhunter,

Yes, but then that has been their environment forever so likely guts, glory and steaks make it worthwhile. Many of us take similar risks in our daily lives just in different ways.:)

jmccr8

It also helps when your packing an iron spear blade thats razor sharp. Early ancestors only had flint, chert, and obsidian. While razor sharp in their own right, these were still way inferior to iron. 

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